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Building a net-zero-energy house: need home automation advice!

post #1 of 23
4/10/11 at 3:01pm
Thread Starter 
We're building a new home that will be net-zero-energy and would like to have an automation system that will enable saving as much energy as possible, as well as the conveniences of automation.

Ideally, everything we'd get should:
1) itself use very little energy
2) work as close to flawlessly as possible (i.e. not be buggy or work intermittently in certain circumstances)
3) look good in a high end home (for my wife to accept)
4) be viewable and controllable from a user friendly interface (that my wife could use)
5) be as inexpensive as possible!

In priority order, we need:

*A gateway device/system that supports as many devices and protocols as possible (e.g. z-wave, zigbee, wifi, etc.), and provides an extremely secure (since it may control door locks) and user friendly interface accessible via web, android, ipad, etc...

*Lighting controls that support LED, CFL, and wired fluorescent lighting, with wall switches that I imagine would be hard wired to a particular light, and remote controllable from other switches as well to create 3-way or 4-way switches).

*Thermostats that support heat pumps (multiple levels of heating and cooling)

*Energy monitoring devices for the whole house, by circuit, and for certain devices (e.g. the solar/electric water heater)

*Locks: My wife likes the Schlage locks (Z-wave). Are there any alternatives that are significantly better?

*Ability to add motion and light sensors as triggers

*Controllable shades

*Camera: for front door, etc.,

*Distributed audio: Sonos has been highly recommended. Any alternatives worth looking into? Ideally this would integrate with the rest of the system

*Home theatre: Not sure if this needs to tie in to the rest of the home automation system, but would appreciate hearing if there's a way to do so that makes sense.

I have a programming background, but now have a very demanding non-programming job that leaves little spare time. So I could spend a few hours programming and setting up the system initially, but couldn't spend a few days, and need a system where the bugs have been ironed out and is well supported. That said, my preference is not to pay a ton of money for someone to program the system for me, or for a proprietary system (unless getting a proprietary system is our only option for a system that works well and and looks good).

I've seen recommendations for various systems here, but am not sure which system and components would meet our needs best. I'd much appreciate any advice and recommendations!
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post #2 of 23
4/10/11 at 4:35pm
You need to start interviewing local Custom Installers/Integrators to find a local company that can meet your needs.

Look for ones that have worked on a LEED home or 2. Maybe one with some solar installation experience would be more 'energy minded'.

Check references closely.

Lutron is the leader in lighting control - check out HomeWorks QS. Brochures in the drop-down menu.
http://www.lutron.com/Products/Whole.../Overview.aspx

NuVo Essentia is an Energy Star certified whole-house audio system that you could consider, though I doubt Sonos would use much more energy.
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post #3 of 23
4/10/11 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
I'm familiar with Lutron, but would prefer not to go with a proprietary system (i.e. I want an open system where I could add 3rd party devices to it if/when it makes sense to and have the option of programming it myself), and I believe Lutron is way more expensive than we'd like.

Also, I'm hoping that our regular electrician would be able to install the lighting control switches (since they'd install the same as regular switches) so that we don't have the expense of another contractor if not necessary...
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post #4 of 23
4/10/11 at 8:08pm
Lutron's control systems are proprietary, but open. That is, they only work for Lutron's systems, but they're widely available.

RA2 would be an affordable, quality Lutron lighting control product. But, their shades are very expensive. You can use another shade manufacturer's shades, to be controlled by any control system. I think Lutron's shades are worth it, but many do not.

I haven't heard of many pros using z-wave, honestly - not sure why. Perhaps some of the pro-installed RF devices are really z-wave, but not advertised as such.

I think the pros are mostly using 'proprietary' RF protocols (Lutron's Clear Connect) or ZigBee (Crestron, C4).
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post #5 of 23
4/11/11 at 11:10am
Lutron RA2 is available to most electrical contractors, not all of them are comfortable with it, but its available. The bigger the system is, the more expertise you will want. The setup software has training requirements based on system size.

With the addition of appliance modules, and thermostats, to the Lutron lineup, you may be able to avoid a separate "home automation" controller and get most of the feature set you are looking for without the added expense or complexity. For someone looking for value for the dollar, its a compelling choice.

Yes, the new Lutron thermostat and heating controller will be capable of working with geothermal heating systems.

http://www.lutron.com/CediaConnectio...2_consumer.pdf

I can tell you from experience that it will be easier to shut the power down to a centralized music system when not in use than a distributed system like Sonos. Standby power is a killer for net-zero applications. Its real easy to build an entertainment system that consumes 80-100 kwh a month in standby. It will take some planning to cut into that figure.

jcmitch
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post #6 of 23
4/11/11 at 1:06pm
Home Automation (HA) and Inexpensive are not words that I would often use together. I am a big fan of HA but, done well, it is not inexpensive.

Consider a simple light switch at, say, $1 versus a HA capable dimmer at $50 and up.

We just finished my daughters new home - we installed 75 HA capable dimmers at around $75 each - which works out to about $5625 plus labor - and the labor tends to be a bit higher than for simple switches.

All told the cost for all of the HA hardware and labor was in excess of $100,000.

JFYI
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post #7 of 23
4/11/11 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
Wow! I get the math for the $5625, which is a manageable number (and we wouldn't need to install as many dimmers), but what added up to the excess of $100,000?? And what system did you install?

Also, what makes the labor for installing HA capable dimmers more than for normal dimmers? Are they wired differently?

I've been working under the assumption that Z-Wave or UPB dimmers, thermostats, etc., are wired to the items they control the same way the regular versions of these components are and that we'd just have to pay the upcharge for the devices we wish to have remote control of, and then just purchase a gateway. Assuming we don't go with a proprietary system like Lutron or Control4, what am I missing?

Thanks.
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post #8 of 23
4/11/11 at 1:48pm
The dimmers we used are a good deal deeper than your typical switch and instead of having screw terminals or stab-in connections you have flying leads, which means a wire-nut or similar connection.

What with the deeper dimmer and the wire-nuts it all can take a bit more time and getting things to fit in the box can be tricky.

As far as the rest:

We had 4 runs of CAT6 and 4 runs of RG6 to each location where A/V equipment might go - 2 runs of CAT6 to each location where computers might go - wiring for 6 ceiling mounted wireless access points - wiring for 4 interior security cameras, 4 exterior cameras, intercom units, 4 security displays, 10 security keypads, lots of window and door sensors, smoke detectors, CO2 detectors, glass break detectors - wiring for an Elan g! HA system, an HC6 (the central control unit) and several TS7 touch screens.

Then we had the HAI OmniProII with expansion boards and enclosures to handle the security, the 8 HAI thermostats, the whole house audio speakers (20 pairs), the surround sound speakers (7+1) in the family room, the security speakers (20), the audio amps, the security sirens and lights, the equipment racks, the rack panels, all the various types of connectors to go in the rack panels, all the wall plates and connectors, the dual 1500W on-line UPS units.

And so on.

It all adds up.
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post #9 of 23
4/11/11 at 3:30pm
The big difference between putting in a standard light switch and a controllable one is the documentation. With a standard switch, once the switch is connected so that the light goes on, you're done. With a controllable switch, you're only halfway there.

Now you need to know which light is connected to which switch, you need a naming scheme for each switch and lighting group, and you need a way to remember the two. Then you need a plan for controlling the individual switches in groups. You need to install the control device, and then you need to assign the switches to each groups, and then each group to each control. Then there's the level setup, assuming not all devices are going to come on at the same level. Last is the conditional setup, when should the lights do what you tell them, and how.

And that's how it goes when it all works correctly. You should see how it is when the hardware doesn't work perfectly the first time. Good gear is worth its weight AFAIAC.

jcmitch
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post #10 of 23
4/11/11 at 8:55pm
Another good choice for the lighting and shades is Vantage Controls, not cheap, but I believe easier to install and a little cheaper than Lutron Homeworks. IMHO you should use a centrally wired system, where the lighting circuits run to a central location, and the low voltage keypads have 4-8 buttons, to avoid the 'wall acne' of multigang 120v switches. It looks nicer, and usually is much easier to use and navigate thru.
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post #11 of 23
4/12/11 at 5:28am
Thread Starter 
Unfortunately, we do not have $100K to spend for home automation. The CAT6 and coax wiring to every room is included in our electric quote, but we have to pay extra for any additional wiring that's required for home automation, and my understanding is that a centrally wired system like Lutron is very expensive.

Is there any non-centrally wired, non-proprietary hardware for lighting control that works well and our electrician can install roughly similarly to how standard switches would be installed? I'm sure that we can figure out the naming scheme, but the hardware does have to work!

Or are folks saying here that in order to get a system that completely works, we have no choice but to get a proprietary lighting control system?
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post #12 of 23
4/12/11 at 6:45am
It's been mentioned at least once already in this thread: RA2. Wires like standard switches, works flawlessly, but it is somewhat proprietary. It is very control friendly however, and that is all that really matters.
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post #13 of 23
4/12/11 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm42 View Post

Unfortunately, we do not have $100K to spend for home automation. The CAT6 and coax wiring to every room is included in our electric quote, but we have to pay extra for any additional wiring that's required for home automation, and my understanding is that a centrally wired system like Lutron is very expensive.

Is there any non-centrally wired, non-proprietary hardware for lighting control that works well and our electrician can install roughly similarly to how standard switches would be installed? I'm sure that we can figure out the naming scheme, but the hardware does have to work!

Or are folks saying here that in order to get a system that completely works, we have no choice but to get a proprietary lighting control system?

I've been reading this thread and some of your statements are just downright confusing (to me). You state high-end home, but you didn't budget much for home automation, yet you want a net-zero-energy house?

First, I would encourage you to spend a lot of time reading through the past few years' threads in this sub-forum if you haven't already done so - it may open your eyes a bit. It will give you a great flavor of what folks have done and their successes/failures.

Specific to lighting, I think what everyone is trying to tell you (my interpretation after following these threads for years) is that while you can go with a lower-cost solution, you may have a higher chance of having to troubleshoot issues, may have reliability issues, and the looks of the product may not fit "in a high-end home". As others have mentioned, Ra2 will do lighting, climate, and occupancy, and Lutron's shade systems can be integrated into the system as well - this ticks off a large chunk of your needs.

The beauty of well-known individual products like Ra2 is that many automation systems, from proprietary Crestron to DIY-friendly CQC, can sit "on top of" and interface with those sub-systems very well - drivers exist for the Ra2 systems of the world and make integration relatively easy.

Neurorad made a great suggestion - start interviewing local installers and try to find someone who has done LEED homes. However, I suspect those solutions will be out of your budget range, but you never know until you ask. You may wind up having to do some of the work in stages depending on your budget (for example, lighting solution only, then adding climate, then automation to sit on top). If you can decide on a plan, you can flip the order - the automation controller no longer becomes priority one. For example, with the Lutron system, there is an iPhone/iPad app that you can use to control the lighting system until you later integrate the entire home.

You mention that some cat6 and coax wiring is included in your electric quote, but you don't mention how much of each. If this is builder standard, you are probably getting cat6 for phone jacks and coax for cable tv - not nearly enough. Don't plan to do everything via wifi or powerline networking - hardwired is rock-solid dependable and the best way to go. If you are in the middle of the build and you don't have an automation plan by now, you need to make certain you run more than you think you need to each room (and possibly to multiple locations within a room) to limit how much wiring is done post-build. It is infinitely cheaper and easier to wire during frame-up as opposed to ripping and patching drywall later. There are a number of threads in this forum re: how much is the correct amount of wiring to run. Also, Cat6 and coax are good, but you also should consider whether your ultimate solution will require any proprietary wire (for example, Cresnet for a Crestron solution). Again, if you can get an automation plan developed before you get to the pre-wiring stage of the build, you'll be in much better shape than realizing after drywall is up that you really needed 2 more Cat6 in that room, or you needed to run Cresnet to this location.
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post #14 of 23
4/12/11 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm42 View Post

Or are folks saying here that in order to get a system that completely works, we have no choice but to get a proprietary lighting control system?

I have two homes using UPB devices, one is appx. 9000 sqft, the other is appx. 5000 sqft.

The UPB system works fine - no issues - and is easy to configure.

There are 4 good manufactures of UPB devices that I know of - so you are not tied to one vendor - if that was one of your concerns.
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post #15 of 23
4/12/11 at 9:40am
Kudos. Don't forget tax rebates and deductions.
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post #16 of 23
4/12/11 at 10:53am
Lutron HomeWorks QS uses centrally located dimmers and/or standard wiring. Hardwired and/or RF options available, for a home. More flexible, and powerful.

Lutron RA2 uses standard wiring, with a RA2 dimmer replacing the typical switch/dimmer.
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post #17 of 23
4/12/11 at 1:41pm
Tax rebate and deductions for? And how do you get them?
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post #18 of 23
4/12/11 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcojack View Post

Tax rebate and deductions for? And how do you get them?

"Progressive" states usually have tax incentives to make your home more energy efficient. Even the Federal have things. Maybe they don't have individual rebates for each automation device u install, but maybe you can show, before and after energy consumption bills, u get a tax deduction! Yeah check with your local utility company too.
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post #19 of 23
4/12/11 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Re: tax incentives, see http://www.dsireusa.org/ where you can find all the info re: both federal and state tax incentives. Unfortunately, as far as I know, home automation equipment does not qualify (though some utility programs will supply CFLs and there are various energy monitoring trials going on). This is something I know about, so happy to help if anyone has any questions.

However, I'm still not certain what to do about lighting controls. From what I've seen on this and another forum, the choices seem to be:

Lutron RA2: Will work well and is possibly controllable by 'open' systems (though folks on the Vera and Homeseer boards did not seem to have a way of doing so yet). But I presume that you're stuck buying all the controls from them, which I'd guess are more expensive than Z-wave or UPB controls would be. Also, their system seems to require one or more "Repeater" units, and they have not responded to my request re: how much energy those units consume. Also the controls themselves consume some energy which could add up to be a problem...

UPB: From here and other forums, these seem to work with no problems and I'd guess that these would be less expensive than Lutron, and there are open systems that can be used to control them (is HomeTroller/HomeSeer the best option?). My question will be how to verify they'll work with the wiring we'll have, and whether they can control LED and Fluorescent lights with no problem...

Z-Wave: This appears to be the "up and coming" wireless protocol that multiple manufacturers are supporting. The locks we plan to get are Z-Wave and there seems to be many other devices that are or will be compatible. And this may be the least expensive option, including the Vera 2 gateway which also consumes very little energy (which is important!). The question seems to be how reliable this system would work today...

Is this a fair summary?
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post #20 of 23
4/13/11 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm42 View Post

Re: tax incentives, see http://www.dsireusa.org/ where you can find all the info re: both federal and state tax incentives. Unfortunately, as far as I know, home automation equipment does not qualify (though some utility programs will supply CFLs and there are various energy monitoring trials going on). This is something I know about, so happy to help if anyone has any questions.

However, I'm still not certain what to do about lighting controls. From what I've seen on this and another forum, the choices seem to be:

Lutron RA2: Will work well and is possibly controllable by 'open' systems (though folks on the Vera and Homeseer boards did not seem to have a way of doing so yet). But I presume that you're stuck buying all the controls from them, which I'd guess are more expensive than Z-wave or UPB controls would be. Also, their system seems to require one or more "Repeater" units, and they have not responded to my request re: how much energy those units consume. Also the controls themselves consume some energy which could add up to be a problem...

UPB: From here and other forums, these seem to work with no problems and I'd guess that these would be less expensive than Lutron, and there are open systems that can be used to control them (is HomeTroller/HomeSeer the best option?). My question will be how to verify they'll work with the wiring we'll have, and whether they can control LED and Fluorescent lights with no problem...

Z-Wave: This appears to be the "up and coming" wireless protocol that multiple manufacturers are supporting. The locks we plan to get are Z-Wave and there seems to be many other devices that are or will be compatible. And this may be the least expensive option, including the Vera 2 gateway which also consumes very little energy (which is important!). The question seems to be how reliable this system would work today...

Is this a fair summary?

Couple of comments.

(1) At STREET price, RadioRa2, UPB and Zwave lighting are all in the same price range (with Ra2 being on the top end of that range) based on dimmers (other necessary components may cause some total cost variances among systems). But there is not a huge difference among the pricing (again at street level, not MSRP).

(2) I have no personal experience with them, but have read posts in the past concerning "compatibility" between Z-wave devices from different manufacturers in the same system. This only means that you might need to consider sourcing your required equipment from the same manufacturer to ensure highest compatibility if you choose Z-wave.

There is a nice discussion of the various lighting systems available to the DIY crowd starting around this post.
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post #21 of 23
4/13/11 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1812 View Post

I've been reading this thread and some of your statements are just downright confusing (to me). You state high-end home, but you didn't budget much for home automation, yet you want a net-zero-energy house?

First, I would encourage you to spend a lot of time reading through the past few years' threads in this sub-forum if you haven't already done so - it may open your eyes a bit. It will give you a great flavor of what folks have done and their successes/failures.

Specific to lighting, I think what everyone is trying to tell you (my interpretation after following these threads for years) is that while you can go with a lower-cost solution, you may have a higher chance of having to troubleshoot issues, may have reliability issues, and the looks of the product may not fit "in a high-end home". As others have mentioned, Ra2 will do lighting, climate, and occupancy, and Lutron's shade systems can be integrated into the system as well - this ticks off a large chunk of your needs.

The beauty of well-known individual products like Ra2 is that many automation systems, from proprietary Crestron to DIY-friendly CQC, can sit "on top of" and interface with those sub-systems very well - drivers exist for the Ra2 systems of the world and make integration relatively easy.

Neurorad made a great suggestion - start interviewing local installers and try to find someone who has done LEED homes. However, I suspect those solutions will be out of your budget range, but you never know until you ask. You may wind up having to do some of the work in stages depending on your budget (for example, lighting solution only, then adding climate, then automation to sit on top). If you can decide on a plan, you can flip the order - the automation controller no longer becomes priority one. For example, with the Lutron system, there is an iPhone/iPad app that you can use to control the lighting system until you later integrate the entire home.

You mention that some cat6 and coax wiring is included in your electric quote, but you don't mention how much of each. If this is builder standard, you are probably getting cat6 for phone jacks and coax for cable tv - not nearly enough. Don't plan to do everything via wifi or powerline networking - hardwired is rock-solid dependable and the best way to go. If you are in the middle of the build and you don't have an automation plan by now, you need to make certain you run more than you think you need to each room (and possibly to multiple locations within a room) to limit how much wiring is done post-build. It is infinitely cheaper and easier to wire during frame-up as opposed to ripping and patching drywall later. There are a number of threads in this forum re: how much is the correct amount of wiring to run. Also, Cat6 and coax are good, but you also should consider whether your ultimate solution will require any proprietary wire (for example, Cresnet for a Crestron solution). Again, if you can get an automation plan developed before you get to the pre-wiring stage of the build, you'll be in much better shape than realizing after drywall is up that you really needed 2 more Cat6 in that room, or you needed to run Cresnet to this location.


Excellent suggestions from mike1812. dsm42 would be wise to follow them.

I'm just catching up on this thread. A few things I've noted:

1) I still recommend that you run conduit in the walls (2" or larger) before the walls are sheetrocked (obviously). This way when the next greatest wire comes along, you still have a path to run a wire. If you break a connection and need to replace a wire, you can also do that without having to get the sheetrockers back. It also allows you to wire as you can afford it. Conduit really comes in handy for a two story house although it can help for the outer walls on a one-story, too.

2) Take pictures of your walls before the sheetrock goes up. Knowing where everything is in the wall is sort-of like having X-ray vision a year later. It pays for itself. When you think you're done taking pictures, take more pictures.


As far as home theater is concerned with home automation, that's where the home automation really shines when done right. So you really want to make sure your plans call for the wiring needed for a home theater (assuming you really want a theater). 7.1-channels of speakers in a good sized home theater with a separate equipment closet/room can eat up a bunch of speaker cable. How are you going to switch the video for all of this equipment?

Also don't forget that even in a LEED home, all of that equipment gives off heat. So, don't forget effective cooling. The more equipment you add, the more heat to manage.

$100K is probably in the ballpark for what you want to do. Many of us have integrated older equipment as a way of reducing cost. When more $$$ are available, then the system gets an upgrade.
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post #22 of 23
4/13/11 at 12:50pm
If anyone knows of incentives or rebates for home automation or lighting control, please post.
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post #23 of 23
4/18/11 at 12:30pm
All of your 5 points in the original post can be solved by using Z-Wave and Vera. Unfortunatey as many have mentioned, it is going to be impossible to have your cake and eat it too unless you go Z-Wave with a low-energy, low-cost gateway. The dimmers can be installed yourself and there will be a bit of a learning curve, but it is better if you have a good understanding of your own system.

Adding in audio or video distribution is another animal but the IR control could be handled through Vera or iDevice app SQ Remote and Blaster.

Of course in new construction I would always recommend a wired system because you can, but you may not be able to find a wired system that can give you these features at this price. Good recommendations by others about running conduit and taking pictures of framing.

1) itself use very little energy = VERA USES 6W + Z-WAVE MODULES
2) work as close to flawlessly as possible (i.e. not be buggy or work intermittently in certain circumstances) = CLOSE TO FLAWLESS CURRENTLY (no system is perfect, wireless or wired)
3) look good in a high end home (for my wife to accept) = IF YOU ALREADY LIKE THE LOCKS THEN THE REST LOOKS GREAT
4) be viewable and controllable from a user friendly interface (that my wife could use) = GET A USED IPOD FOR <$130 AND USE SQ REMOTE OR FREE WEB INTERFACE, OR OTHER ANDROID/WIN PHONE APPS
5) be as inexpensive as possible! = DOESN"T GET ANY CHEAPER FOR THE FEATURESET
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