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The VAN is the ROOM in REW: Room Eq Wizard!

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I knew this was how it was going down, so I went with it. I hoped to get solid replies on the input to my Alpine IVA-W505 HU. I do not want to run RCAs because they tend to be nasty dirty from PC, but I just might have to. Also IDK if I kept the AUX IN RCA connector for the HU. So I tried the 3.5mm LINE OUT on the PC to the 3.5mm in jack on the IVA thats usually used in conjunction with the USB... both go to one end of the iPOD Y-cord, and the other end is the jack to plug into the POD.

I get no audio from the HU from the PC in USB, AUX, or AUX + IN.

The rig: I dismantled the rig I built for the HT and rebuilt it for the VAN. RS meter and Audyssey mic.

















VIDEO

REW the van is my ROOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjLYJZZLj0

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 24
the reason why the 3.5mm jack isnt working with the USB mode is because the alpine isnt receiving data communications from the usb cord.
without sending data to the radio with a usb connection, the radio wont turn on the 3.5mm jack.

the only way to use the 3.5mm jack in USB mode is to create a device that will duplicate the conversation that the ipod has with the radio.

it can get a bit tricky.. because its unknown as to whether the 3.5mm jack turns off after every song, then waits for more data from the ipod to turn the 3.5mm jack back on.

i'm assuming the data sent to the radio from the ipod is music information, mainly the artist and track title.
if there is any other key information being sent, such as 'activation' headers that say 'hello'
i dont know, and you would have to packet sniff the ipod connection to learn what is going on.


anyways.. another important possibility,
does the 3.5mm jack send analog audio or a digital signal?
kinda like spdif output.
its not far-fetched to send a digital signal.. because the cord will have less opportunity to degrade the quality.
and since the ipod requires both usb and 3.5mm jack to function this way.. it can be assumed that the operation isnt as simple as plugging in some headphones and hearing audio.
adding the USB cord could change the flow of function to fully digital.
perhaps you could test this by connecting the ipod to the radio and instead of connecting the 3.5mm jack to the radio.. connect it to some headphones and listen for analog audio or a digital signal.

truth be told.. the 3.5mm jack could send a digital signal that says 'is anybody there?'
the radio would say 'yes i am here'
and if there is no reply, the output switches from digital to analog.


it takes quite a bit of work and training to obtain the necessary info from the ipod.
and then it would take more work and training to program a circuit that duplicates the ipod data connection.

IF you were to do this, you could avoid the trouble of sending each artist and track title.
you could simply program artist with your name or 'van'
and the title of the song could be 'audio'
BUT.. the problem you might run into, the ipod might be telling the radio when the song ends (how long the song is)
and if it does, you would have to program the circuit to tell the radio the song is ____ minutes long.
maybe you could simply tell the radio that the song is 1 hour long, and then have audio for an hour.
but when the 1 hour is up, you'll have to send another digital communication signal to the radio.


if i had the circuit board all connected and ready to be programmed.. i would make an option to input different amounts of time.
say, if you go on a road trip and expect the total drive time to be 30 minutes.. you tap the button once and press send.
if the drive was expected to be 1 hour.. you tap the button twice (1 hour = 60 minutes)

so maybe its best to use 10 or 15 minute size?

it would be a cute project for anybody that has the training, as long as they are willing to play.

i can understand why people have these exotic requests.. because the audio from the 3.5mm jack might have a better signal compared to the RCA jacks.
that is usually because of how the circuit board is inside the radio.

i dont know exactly how the circuit would work.
but from leisure reading, i would guess the communication (sentences) would need to be stored on a chip.
i know a standard IC chip will store data.. but it might not have enough memory to hold all of the sentences needed.
you might have to put a sentence or two on each IC chip and then have a 'driver' or 'operator' chip that knows which sentence is on which chip.
then when you press send, the operator chip will run the script.
getting the information from the IC chip to the output port would require each chip to be directly connected to the output.
and that might make selecting the perfect IC chip a bit harder.

usb runs on 5 volts.
so you should be able to run the circuit off of a 9 volt battery.
if the electricity directly from the battery is too dirty for the IC chips.. then you would need a power filter on the circuit board.

i dont know what these pieces cost individually.. so i dont know what estimate price to give you.

building the circuit might be easy, but packet sniffing the data from the ipod might be harder.
post #3 of 24
if you are going to calibrate the system with REW
its best to pick an input and stick with that input.

you need to decide which digital to analog convertors are going to be used.. and calibrate the dac you choose.
because one dac might sound different than another dac, and that sorta defeats the purpose of calibration.

chances are, you wont be using an impulse response file in a convolver unless the computer remains connected to the radio in the van.
if the computer isnt gonna stay and play music, then simply using an RTA with pink noise will be enough to calibrate the equalizer.
but
if the computer is going to stay in the van, then i highly suggest you calibrate any equalizers you already have.. and then take a new measurement with REW to get an impulse response file.
that needs to be converted into .pcm with a sound editing program.
there is a tutorial/guide available here that i used:
http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/im...Guide_v1.0.pdf

except, i didnt measure each speaker individually.. i did everything in mono.

when DRC outputs the file, i had to guess which one was right.. but you can see that there are only two new files.. so it must be one or the other.

i havent discovered if DRC will work with anything other than .pcm
they say .pcm is a .wav file without information headers.
its hard to find programs that work with .pcm
its easier to find programs that work with .raw
but i dont know if .raw is the same as .pcm
i'm currently looking into that now.


i tried the convolver plugin for foobar and i also tried the SIR impulse response processor plugin.
the SIR program requires a VST plugin for foobar.


a note though,
dont expect your results to be close to perfect unless you have the microphone calibrated (correction file for flat response)

and i wouldnt expect those microphones to work with all of the sound pressure from the subwoofers.
the microphones will probably distort if the subs are too loud.

i'd say you are in for a world of compromises considering this achievement.
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
wow dude you wrote a lot, i like it, Ill come back and read when i have time...pulling the dash out now
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
pulled the dash out...cant pull the deck, I mounted my amps inside the enclosure for the same reason i CAULKED the deck in instead of a plastic 3 screw mounting kit: want my deck, bring a razor, 2 screw drivers, and take your time

The RCA out and RCA in are one connector so i am good! I ran a short set of RCAs to each, before I had a long pair coiled up in the net pouch on the right along with the long ass iPOD cords. USB for audio and control and apparently 3.5mm jack for the video.

While I had her ripped open I got another replacement toggle switch..no more burnt out lights. The new ones dont get as hot, I am assuming me taking them back so many times they rebuilt them better :-P

Ill bring the PC out again later and run some sweeps and see what ive got. I might turn the gains down first though, I raised the 10V and 14V amps to 17V with the other too and its too loud with the sub level set to 0 on some songs. So much work though, pain in the ass matching!









post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
when the subs arent hooked up and I am running a sine wave, they dont actually draw much current at all right? I re-gain matched cuz the shits too loud with the sub level at 0 so all 4 are within .3V now, 27.3V avaerage with the deck at 20 of 35 and sub level 10 of 15. I never play above 20 unless its a really quiet song. that way I can drop all the way to 0 so the subs are very quiet, or crank it to 15 on a quiet song.

It is not an easy task, gain setting, a hair this way... too much, a hair back, too far, so leave that one and try to get the others to match it: good luck.

On top of that, one amp is very hard to move the knob, but when it moves just a tiny bit the voltage changes drastically. The one next to it is easy. The other 2 on the other side move WAY to easy and I dont like it, I dont even turn them... i touch my mini flat had...just touch them.. and they move


I started the van and the lights were dim, the motor labored, alternator whining (not squeeling) voltage was way way down! WTF?!?!
post #7 of 24
you are saying the amplifiers are soaking up electricity at idle
or
you are saying the amplifiers are using more electricity than you expected

??

you said you got the voltages up on the different amps.
was it corrosion on the ends or a junk wire?
i'm a little suprised to hear the amplifiers worked at all with less than 10 volts.

i suppose its better to have the voltages match.. because if the power cord was struggling to provide enough voltage, it was strugglig to provide amperage too.
all amplifiers need power to make power.. but some need less, and can stretch the components on the circuit board to their limits (those limits might provide better sound)
saying, literally, if the capacitors provide cleaner output when they are only have full or less.. then it would be wise to starve the amplifier instead of feeding it more voltage.
but, this is extensive tweaking by knowing.

anyways.. it wouldnt suprise me at all if the battery was almost dead.
i dont know if that battery in the back is a die hard battery or something more similar to a capacitor (or powercell)
batteries grow weak with age.
and capacitors (and/or powercells) need current to keep their output ratio high.. otherwise they simply go dead.

that system has lots of amps.. and big ones at that.
i dont see why you would ever run the system without the alternator spinning.
i've seen some pictures, and i didnt see a large array of batteries.
besides, those batteries will get low and put a big strain on the system when you start the engine.
its better to pour some extra gas into the tank and use the engine compared to recharging an array of batteries.
otherwise, you are gonna want to recharge the battery array with the alternator before you go on a trip.. and that wastes gas anyways, so might as well hit the objective directly and appreciate the money/time saved.


anyways..
i'm confused, are you wanting to use REW with the midranges and tweeters only?
or
do you want the entire system calibrated?

you havent said exactly what your goal is except putting REW in the van and getting some readings.

the SPL meter is supposed to measure the wind and pressure.. thats why its an sound 'pressure' level meter.
the audyssey mic is for sound.


i'm a little bit afraid that the microphone will have the same distortion as the video recorder microphone.
if you have ever watched any of your youtube videos, the bass causes the microphone to distort badly.

no sense breaking the microphone before you get some measurements.
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thank you Scott again for giving me so much to do for the last month or however long it has been. I have been building mic stands, running wires, calibrating sound cards, cutting reinforcements to my house (that werent in use not even contacting anymore LOL) down to build walls and using fence latches and foam to seal up and create door ways, boarding up my windows... rewiring my furnace and basement... and now... the VAN! Scott never asked for a thing, just that I share my results with him. That is a fellow DIY guy. Thank you Scott.

As anticipated I have some issues to work out, and my peak burping frequency was as I guessed. First problem, today while re-gain matching... that is a BITCH..I HATE that ****... I noticed a 60Hz hum. I have noticed it before and am still baffled, as this is not home AC power. My 1st sweep I did at volume 1 and PC volume 50% to be safe. Then I tried volume 7 PC 50%, then vol 7 PC 100%. After that I tried 10 and noticed something was WACK. Tried 13 but didnt even make it.. when i turn the HU to 13 I get nasty feedback! It gets louder and louder. When i swept at 13 it was terrible.

I always guessed my cabin would resonate above 40Hz, and I had this feeling that since I am tuned ungodly low...almost verified now at 23.3Hz... I always guessed that since I am tuned to 23Hz I will have a peak at 46-48Hz. I show a peak at 47, so I am guessing when i go burp again, 23Hz will be about a 149dB and 47Hz will be mid-50's.

I cant get good snap shots, even with the sub at 0 ( max is 15) I get almost 105dB only at volume 7 ( I listen between 18 to 21) down low but up high below 60dB.





this got terrible with the feedback

post #9 of 24
the fact that its not necessarily AC power like from the house, there are two different sources of power.

you would get the same hum if you plugged the computer into an extension cord and plugged it into the house.
the same way you would get a hum if you plugged the computer into a power invertor connected to the same battery.
its a mis-match.. one because of power source, the other because of different voltages.
DC power doesnt have fluctuation like AC power does that might make the problem worse.


those dB levels look extremely uneven.. is there any desire to switch from burping competition settings to audiophile settings?
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

you are saying the amplifiers are soaking up electricity at idle
or
you are saying the amplifiers are using more electricity than you expected

??

you said you got the voltages up on the different amps.
was it corrosion on the ends or a junk wire?
i'm a little suprised to hear the amplifiers worked at all with less than 10 volts.

i suppose its better to have the voltages match.. because if the power cord was struggling to provide enough voltage, it was strugglig to provide amperage too.
all amplifiers need power to make power.. but some need less, and can stretch the components on the circuit board to their limits (those limits might provide better sound)
saying, literally, if the capacitors provide cleaner output when they are only have full or less.. then it would be wise to starve the amplifier instead of feeding it more voltage.
but, this is extensive tweaking by knowing.

anyways.. it wouldnt suprise me at all if the battery was almost dead.
i dont know if that battery in the back is a die hard battery or something more similar to a capacitor (or powercell)
batteries grow weak with age.
and capacitors (and/or powercells) need current to keep their output ratio high.. otherwise they simply go dead.

that system has lots of amps.. and big ones at that.
i dont see why you would ever run the system without the alternator spinning.
i've seen some pictures, and i didnt see a large array of batteries.
besides, those batteries will get low and put a big strain on the system when you start the engine.
its better to pour some extra gas into the tank and use the engine compared to recharging an array of batteries.
otherwise, you are gonna want to recharge the battery array with the alternator before you go on a trip.. and that wastes gas anyways, so might as well hit the objective directly and appreciate the money/time saved.


anyways..
i'm confused, are you wanting to use REW with the midranges and tweeters only?
or
do you want the entire system calibrated?

you havent said exactly what your goal is except putting REW in the van and getting some readings.

the SPL meter is supposed to measure the wind and pressure.. thats why its an sound 'pressure' level meter.
the audyssey mic is for sound.


i'm a little bit afraid that the microphone will have the same distortion as the video recorder microphone.
if you have ever watched any of your youtube videos, the bass causes the microphone to distort badly.

no sense breaking the microphone before you get some measurements.

gain matching is measuring your amplifer outputs so they are the same. just because you set all of your gains to the same position doesnt mean they are all putting out the same power. my amps were putting out 9V-17V initially, not receiving it. I am not talking about the power supply into them. I am talking about disconnecting the subs and putting a DMM to the speaker out terminals on the amps.

IDK what youre talking about SPL meter vs mic, a mic does the same thing as an SPL meter until it is over loaded. I am not taking peak measurements I am keeping the SPL below what the mic can handle. It is for an FR responce.

Car audio people are generally stupid which is why they never talk about or know about FR and testing for it in car unless they are SQ people.
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

the fact that its not necessarily AC power like from the house, there are two different sources of power.

you would get the same hum if you plugged the computer into an extension cord and plugged it into the house.
the same way you would get a hum if you plugged the computer into a power invertor connected to the same battery.
its a mis-match.. one because of power source, the other because of different voltages.
DC power doesnt have fluctuation like AC power does that might make the problem worse.


those dB levels look extremely uneven.. is there any desire to switch from burping competition settings to audiophile settings?

dude, the hum isnt from my computer. I dont keep a computer in my car. I had it in there twice now for testing. the hum is always there. car audio is 12V DC there should be no hum. Home audio hum is from the power source being 60Hz AC.


that is audiophile flat. 1st off it's not smoothed, second off I dont use EQ, time alignment, staging, and imaging. 3rd thats not SPL/burp.
post #12 of 24
ah.. i see i see

nothing for me to say in this thread
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

ah.. i see i see

nothing for me to say in this thread

sorry man. no excuse for me to say, so just: sorry.
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
heres why i got offended
first off i am obviously not happy with my current results. my fr responce is ****. my front stage isnt near as loud as i hoped. my subs dont play the lows and highs that i want. i didnt expect to be using near as much power as i do.

if this was an spl set up as you incinuated i would have more like 20 - 30 cubic ft rather than 45 - 110, id be running spl subs with high bl high fs low Xmax, a huge slot port for double to triple the port area, a tuning 1 to 2 octaves higher, i wouldnt have a $700 touch screen dvd player for optical out and control capabilities for the $500 cross over running over $1000 of amps for the front stage alone (2 kicker kx850.4s a kx650.4 and sx500.2) and over $900 on front stage drivers. (four Extremis 6.4s 2 FR125Ss and four Vifa XT25TG30 1" )

so i find it kinda hard (insulting) to disable my "SPL settings"

sorry i went off on you it is no excuse but i am licking my wounds while you are unintentionally pouring salt in them

i do apologize, i am sorry!!
post #15 of 24
Why are you surprised at the results (and no I am not being insulting)? First off, its a vehicle that is going to have all sorts of crazy reflections that are seriously going to skew your results.

Secondly, your front stage is mounted in quite less than an "audiophile" way.

The third thing I see is in the bass region. it looks like your car peaks around 45-50 hertz. so eq that down.

Honestly at this point I think you need to make a numbered list of what you want exactly. Then start attacking each number individually. The remove this sub or speaker is not having the effects you are looking for. So at this point, its going to take some eq work. I would suggest on the midbass throught the tweeters you disconnect the subs and get them set. Try running 1 speaker of each on each left ad right channel and see what you can get as far as frequency response. More speakers always = more problems. check phase as well.
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
There he is! I must admit I was feeling neglected by you
I expected there to be plenty of issues, specificaly: the car thing. I didnt expect it to be this bad. For one, the sub stage alone. If my sub stage was testing this way with no EQ, Id chalk it up to...well, its in a vehicle. But already EQed the way that it is?

2nd: I really hope the Extremis just need 180 phase shift, as there's otherwise a "decent" roll off from low to high. If reversing the phase eliminates the massive dips around 80Hz and 710Hz... the Extremis crossover points... then over all it's not so bad.

TBH I dont see what mounting them up in the ceiling has to do with the FR vs in the doors/kicks... that would just be staging and imaging to me... but I'm obviousely no SQ guy
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
well, under PEQ I only have 2 bands under subwoofer, band 1 either 20Hz or 22Hz, band two's lowest setting is 57Hz.

Keep in mind I have been saying before I even started this build that I hate the 45Hz center on bass boost, that if I could invert bass boost on an amp to attenuate 35Hz-55Hz I would... so before even knowing my 47Hz peak i already intended on brining it down...

So do I go with a narrow cut at 57Hz and slowly widen it until I look good?

Or should I flatten PEQ for now and check out graphic? I assume graphic will have the same bands...Ill go check...
post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
Im gonna catch hell for this like everything else, so what, whats new.

PEQ flattened everything.

GEQ:
20Hz +9dB
25Hz +9dB
40Hz -9dB
50Hz -9dB

Ill give it a listen tomorrow and if I ever get feedback on my feedback problem Ill run some sweeps like that and with the extremis phase reversed.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Heaven for a minute, so much excitement... the EQ was so much better but still lacking up high a bit so I brought 50Hz back up to 0. I love it. So happy. Didn't have to crank it up I got to enjoy it at a reasonable level, sounded amazing. A song that had a deep low, a mid, then high note was perfect... it nailed the low part, got quieter on the mid, then the high part was strong...the way I like it. Next song is one I usually skip because it just pounds/thumps. Now it is much tighter and snapier, now I like the song. Next song theres a part that sweeps down deep once in a while, before it was quiet and I was always thinking "I tuned this low for a reason, parts like this, when it sweps down its supposed to get stupid loud then back to normal". Now it does.

But of course things always have to be short lived. Something was still off, so I killed the other drivers. Subs only. Listened. Watched. Watched. Listened. One sub wasn't moving like the other 3.

I have a bad amp. I played, switched RCAs, disconnected the others and played by itself. Hooked it to a different sub. Checked to see if it was the sub or amp. Its the amp. The one I have been having trouble gain matching. It's hard to move the gain on it, when it does move the voltage change is drastic even if I barely move the knob. When I was done gain matching it was in a much different position than the other 3. I turned the gain up with it hooked up by itself cuz the sub was quiet but sounded somewhat OK, it clipped and sounded terrible but wasnt loud at all.

Contacted sales@ngamotorsports.com we will see if they cover it.
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
so theres a pretty good chance that the REW sweeps corroborated what i was saying about the substage FR curve for a good reason, as well as a loss of output, more current drop than should have been, and a few times a touch of stinky: same reason that two amps before gain match were 17.3V-17.9V, one was almost 15V...a bit off, but one was 1/2 at 9.8V... prolly blew a channel on one amp.

I havent heard back from sales@ngamotorsports.com so like last time, I contacted audiopipe myself. Jackie knows her ****. I mis spoke when she said "so you blew a channel on it?" and I said "no, it's a monoblock Im running bridged" and she said " no its two 1500s" and I said "yes two 1500s strapped". OOPS! My **** comes out wrong all the time, but it was pretty hott havin a female put me in my place... then again that happens on the forums every day wink wink.

So she says if its within 12 months I can send it in and they will determine if its warranty. She wouldnt give me info to shi it until I found my paperwork. Well i initially bought 4 amps, a kid bought one from me before i installed them, so i ordered a 5th. I bought the 5th one 1 year ago today! What are the chances of that? So now watch, the serial number on it will be one of the original four


Anyway, this hopefully explains the unexpected FR responce. I'll flatten the EQ and re-sweep if/when I get the amp repaired/replace and hopefully that was the issue. But damn it if I have to EQ up and down 9dB to get what I want, screw what the smart girls who know their **** have to say... Ill do what it takes to get what I want.



KW: SMD's Douchebag of the month July/2010, Car Audio's laughing stock
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 
on a few of these forums, the ones which I refer to the sexy girls that are always there to politely put me in my place like Jackie did, I need to mention, as I know this is one of the things you will jump on: The other warranty issue was with the kid that bought one of the original 4 amps from me, he is apparently even worse at this than I am, he hooked his wires up backwards and cooked his. This is my first issue with these since I got them over a year ago....yes, despite them being mounted inside my enclosure, and yes...despite me being the one to install it in this terrible awful install.

KW: that guy
post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
Well running REW in my van certainly did a lot for me. I recognized visually what i was hearing, something was wrong with the subs: BLOWN AMP therefore a sub acting as something like a PR with a bit of power to it, making my port a 20" leak in the box. I saw that at my crossover points I had huge dips, phase issues. I also saw that despite having 2000 RMS available up front, 8 very good drivers in sealed enclosures, and a bitchin crossover system... my front stage was weak. Matched up with what my ears were telling me.

I sent the amp in for repair and it should be back any day now. I wanted to test my front stage and get it where I want it, that way when i get the subs, I run 2 sweeps...regular and subs 180 degrees, pick the better of the two and be done...well, run sweeps with EQ too.

The front stage situation, I hate mids. In my case the 710Hz-14kHz my FR125S's cover. If I could quadrouple my subs, Extremis, tweets, and power on them all...and leave the FR125S's as are... I'd be a happy camper. My tweets, I had a new build house issue. I started off with 2 2005 Vifas on a KX200.2 thinking the KX amps were 4ohm stable, not 2 ohm. I was getting half the power, and with my wanting tons of 14kHz and up and no 14kHz down, I was getting clipping and break up: bad. I ordered a 2nd pair of Vifas, but since 05' they changed significantly. My 200.2 was running parallel 2ohms now.that helped... but the new tweets were MUCH louder and sounded quiet different. I worked with Madisound extensively after I blew both new tweets. I upgraded to the SX500.2, used it's 36dB/oct slope in conjunction with the PXA-H701's 30dB slope... now I am golden. But after blowing the first 2 I was scared.

Well I stepped up to the plate and turned the FR125Ss back up and the tweets back up, reversed phase on the Extremis, now I am golden!


First some pics of the new mustard! I havent spray painted them yellow yet, but here's the re-rejob:



redid the mic rig:



Set the PC up a little more friendly:



Initial sweep after working volume up slowly for safety



2nd sweep windows up to compare.



2nd sweep windows up to compare.





PHASE play!





post #23 of 24
Thread Starter 
it's amazing how much air 4 18's can move if all 4 of them are moving the same direction. It's amazing how much air movement you lose when one amp probably never worked in the first place, so your port never functioned correctly and one sub was moving the inverse of the other three.

Much love to Audiopipe. I called Jackie what, a couple weeks ago and sent it in? I got a BRAND NEW amp today, even improved to run off 16V. Thanks Jackie.

So my setup is completely different now. I love it.









It's a good thing I turned my mids and tweets back up, they still cant keep up though.

Oh, and amazing sound quality is sort of killed by insane door flex.
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Ill have to hook it back up, rew, and do some sweeps with the new crossover settings
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