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Upcoming Sony Vegas Pro 10D to have MVC editing ability - Page 5

post #121 of 157
Quote:


Sony projector, which I believe only operates at 120hz in 3D mode for 24p content. Don can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Yes, 240 Hz but 3D refreshes each eye 120/sec which is double most other projectors. It results in an observable smoother motion both H and V.
post #122 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

As a JVC owner, you have to consider that one disadvantage of owning a JVC is the lack of support, not only from JVC but also from 3rd party.

This is absolutely true. JVC has a nasty habit of going off on their own little tangents with regard to unique formats. Past MOD and TOD files are proof of that. It was a long while before ANY nle would accept JVC TOD files.... and some never even bothered.

This has ALWAYS weighed heavily in my mind when thinking about owning JVC vid cam equipment. Even with this TD1 cam.... the one thing that has stopped me dead in my tracks was the AAC audio that jvc is using (as opposed to the normal AC3)
post #123 of 157
As I said before Joe- I don't think there will be any great differences in image quality of the same format between the two competing camcorders. The live output I saw was damn near the same. Rather it will be the usability that will shine on the Sony over the JVC.
post #124 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

you mean one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyPCjaWKtcM

That thing will go everywhere except underwater. How do you control the video and send the video back?

The answer is somewhere in this page.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1312538&page=3
post #125 of 157
Holy moly, I want a Traxxas now! That thing is bad a$$
post #126 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

This is absolutely true. JVC has a nasty habit of going off on their own little tangents with regard to unique formats. Past MOD and TOD files are proof of that. It was a long while before ANY nle would accept JVC TOD files.... and some never even bothered.

This has ALWAYS weighed heavily in my mind when thinking about owning JVC vid cam equipment. Even with this TD1 cam.... the one thing that has stopped me dead in my tracks was the AAC audio that jvc is using (as opposed to the normal AC3)

I've never even heard of the TOD format.

Your feelings mirror how the university I used to teach at felt about JVC professional products. They had a strict stay away policy because of previous bad experiences. OTOH, I've had excellent experiences with JVC consumer products (and Sony, too). My first consumer HD camcorder was a Sony HDR-HC1 - an HDV tape based unit that I loved. I'm crazy in love with my JVC RS40 projector, and so far I really like the TD1. I don't have any aspirations of making money with it, though. For me, it's strictly a personal toy - a way to document things happening with my family and friends. I can live within its limitations, and even be pretty happy with it as a SbS-only 3D camcorder. Even if no one ever supports their MVC format, it will be worth it for me. If some companies do (and I'm pretty sure they will), that's all the better. I'll shoot in MVC mode, convert to SbS for editing, and archive the MVC footage for later. I know that attitude isn't enough for everyone, but I'd wager it would be for most who buy it. I imagine most people who buy this camcorder aren't going to do a lot of (or any) editing.
post #127 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

As I said before Joe- I don't think there will be any great differences in image quality of the same format between the two competing camcorders. The live output I saw was damn near the same. Rather it will be the usability that will shine on the Sony over the JVC.

Are you getting the Sony, Don?
post #128 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've had excellent experiences with JVC consumer products (and Sony, too).

Don't get me wrong... I enjoy JVC products. The most dependable dvd player I have EVER owned is JVC (better than my Sony). I also have a in-dash dvd player head unit in my van... a JVC 830 double din... which I HIGHLY recommend.... Kenwood/Alpine quality without the Kenwood/Alpine price tag.

It just seems however that with the JVC cams they have a nasty habit of going off on some kind of tangent with the output formats. This I don't understand at all.

(The TOD format was used in the first JVC hi def cams to hit the market. Every one was going avchd EXCEPT JVC who went hi def mpeg2 for a little while there. There were all sorts of "how do I convert TOD" posts all over the internet.)
post #129 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
Are you getting the Sony, Don?
Yes, preordered it on the last day at NAB. Contrary to most here, I had to put the two side by side and compare before deciding. Well, not exactly side by side but I went back and forth on the last day of NAB a dozen times between the JVC and Sony booths comparing one feature at a time hands on.

My first camcorder ever was a JVC. It was a VHS-C. The Sony at the time was a "BetaMovie" I went with the JVC because it had a 3rd party support of an underwater housing from Ikelite. I used it a couple of times and then on one dive the JVC got damp and the dew lite came on and then everything went dead. JVC said tough, warranty no good because you got it wet. So for several years I had a housing and no camera. Couldn't afford to replace it. Eventually, I bought a Zenith knockoff of the JVC ( actually made by JVC for Zenith) that fit in the housing and I used it for several years then sold it when 8mm came out.
post #130 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Yes, preordered it on the last day at NAB. Contrary to most here, I had to put the two side by side and compare before deciding. Well, not exactly side by side but I went back and forth on the last day of NAB a dozen times between the JVC and Sony booths comparing one feature at a time hands on.

My first camcorder ever was a JVC. It was a VHS-C. The Sony at the time was a "BetaMovie" I went with the JVC because it had a 3rd party support of an underwater housing from Ikelite. I used it a couple of times and then on one dive the JVC got damp and the dew lite came on and then everything went dead. JVC said tough, warranty no good because you got it wet. So for several years I had a housing and no camera. Couldn't afford to replace it. Eventually, I bought a Zenith knockoff of the JVC ( actually made by JVC for Zenith) that fit in the housing and I used it for several years then sold it when 8mm came out.
I really look forward to seeing some clips from the Sony. Be sure to link here if you start a new thread.
post #131 of 157
Just in case you haven't noticed, 10.0d is now out and available for download.
post #132 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Just in case you haven't noticed, 10.0d is now out and available for download.

Oh yeah! did the upgrade a few minutes after they released it. I was editing in V 10c when up popped a window advising me that I can now download the update so I did immediately. Vegas has a notification feature that's pretty cool.

Bad news is that the JVC MVC files crash the program. So for JVC owners to use the software, they'll either have to stick with half res SBS or continue to wait for another solution to edit stuff with the JVC. Or, just buy the Sony TD10.
post #133 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Oh yeah! did the upgrade a few minutes after they released it. I was editing in V 10c when up popped a window advising me that I can now download the update so I did immediately. Vegas has a notification feature that's pretty cool.

Bad news is that the JVC MVC files crash the program. So for JVC owners to use the software, they'll either have to stick with half res SBS or continue to wait for another solution to edit stuff with the JVC. Or, just buy the Sony TD10.

Looking forward to impressions of editing the Sony MVC files, Don. Maybe you could create a short Blu-ray iso for us? I know you said there will be no menus, but that's fine with me. It's disappointing to hear that the JVC files crash Vegas, but it's not surprising. Hopefully, that will change before too long. I'd just like to be able to put some of the full res JVC stuff on disc for easy playback.
post #134 of 157
Will we be able to create single frame sequential for the ps3
post #135 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Looking forward to impressions of editing the Sony MVC files, Don. Maybe you could create a short Blu-ray iso for us? I know you said there will be no menus, but that's fine with me. It's disappointing to hear that the JVC files crash Vegas, but it's not surprising. Hopefully, that will change before too long. I'd just like to be able to put some of the full res JVC stuff on disc for easy playback.

I think Frank did create an iso and uploaded it for people to check out. I haven't looked at it yet.

I examined my first 3D blu Ray here and it looked amazing. What impressed me was the upconversion of the Bloggie 3D clips when rendered to the BluRay burn and played back on the big screen. There was more detail in the video than I could see in the half res rendering playbacks. Color saturation was better and edge sharpness better.

I was surprised with the ability to control the video with my remote as before the absence of menus gave me an auto run dvd, but this allowed almost full remote control of playback.

Besides JVC file incompatibility, another thing you can't do with Vegas is take a video clip that is already in SBS format and put it on the timeline for this blu ray burn. What you get is a screen with two images SBS. The render process does not make that SBS back to full 3D. I had hoped to take some of the MP4 files that have been uploaded and put them in the Blu Ray burn but they remain SBS.

___________________

I also noticed two new render output selections in the Render As selection:
1. MVC 1080 x 1920 24P @ 10MBPS
2. MVC 720 x 1280 60P @ 10 MBPS

1. The description states "Use this selection to create 2 video streams at 23.976 fps at 1080 x 1920 at 10 MBPS"

These outputs are not real important today but for the future when DVD A supports 3D authoring, you will use this setting to port the rendered timeline to DVD A for full 3D BluRay with menus. It's the best hint that this is coming as it would serve no other purpose otherwise.

Considering the Sony HDR TD10 only shoots 2x: 1080i x 1920 29.97fps, I wonder how good this 2/3 pull down will look when it ends up converted to this format.
post #136 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I also noticed two new render output selections in the Render As selection:

1. MVC 1080 x 1920 24P @ 10MBPS
2. MVC 720 x 1280 60P @ 10 MBPS

1. The description states "Use this selection to create 2 video streams at 23.976 fps at 1080 x 1920 at 10 MBPS"

That bitrate is ridiculously low, suitable only for previewing materials before sending the streams over for proper authoring. I did wonder why Sony would cannibalize their own Blu-print 3D by adding BD 3D rendering in Vegas; I guess limiting the bitrate was their solution for keeping Vegas a consumer/prosumer product.
post #137 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

That bitrate is ridiculously low, suitable only for previewing materials before sending the streams over for proper authoring. I did wonder why Sony would cannibalize their own Blu-print 3D by adding BD 3D rendering in Vegas; I guess limiting the bitrate was their solution for keeping Vegas a consumer/prosumer product.

25 megabits per second is an option that is available.
post #138 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I think Frank did create an iso and uploaded it for people to check out. I haven't looked at it yet.

I examined my first 3D blu Ray here and it looked amazing. What impressed me was the upconversion of the Bloggie 3D clips when rendered to the BluRay burn and played back on the big screen. There was more detail in the video than I could see in the half res rendering playbacks. Color saturation was better and edge sharpness better.

I was surprised with the ability to control the video with my remote as before the absence of menus gave me an auto run dvd, but this allowed almost full remote control of playback.

Besides JVC file incompatibility, another thing you can't do with Vegas is take a video clip that is already in SBS format and put it on the timeline for this blu ray burn. What you get is a screen with two images SBS. The render process does not make that SBS back to full 3D. I had hoped to take some of the MP4 files that have been uploaded and put them in the Blu Ray burn but they remain SBS.

___________________

I also noticed two new render output selections in the Render As selection:
1. MVC 1080 x 1920 24P @ 10MBPS
2. MVC 720 x 1280 60P @ 10 MBPS

1. The description states "Use this selection to create 2 video streams at 23.976 fps at 1080 x 1920 at 10 MBPS"

These outputs are not real important today but for the future when DVD A supports 3D authoring, you will use this setting to port the rendered timeline to DVD A for full 3D BluRay with menus. It's the best hint that this is coming as it would serve no other purpose otherwise.

Considering the Sony HDR TD10 only shoots 2x: 1080i x 1920 29.97fps, I wonder how good this 2/3 pull down will look when it ends up converted to this format.

You may be thinking of the AVCHD iso file that I uploaded to Dropbox. That was all side by side clips. Which mp4 clips are you referring to? mp4 clips from the JVC are full res, not side by side. JVC side by side clips have MTS extensions.

What I was asking was that you take some of the Sony full res MVC clips and export them from Vegas as a 3D Blu-ray disc, then create an iso file from the disc. That way, I could burn it to Blu-ray and play it in my 3D Blu-ray player. I've been assuming that Vegas doesn't degrade the MVC files (by lowering the bit rate) when it creates the disc. I'm really fuzzy as to what Vegas does when burning the disc.

Maybe icerat could upload a few Sony MVC clips. That way, anyone who wants to could play with the Vegas trial (if the trial is full featured).
post #139 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

25 megabits per second is an option that is available.

At 30fps? Going from 30 to 24fps would introduce motion artifacts.
post #140 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

At 30fps? Going from 30 to 24fps would introduce motion artifacts.

Huh?
I was referring to the bit rate, not the frame rate!

I uploaded an ISO in the other thread that was shot at 60i and converted to 24P. You might want to check it out.
post #141 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Huh?
I was referring to the bit rate, not the frame rate!

I uploaded an ISO in the other thread that was shot at 60i and converted to 24P. You might want to check it out.

Could you provide a link, Frank?

I know the difference between bit rate and frame rate. I'm just confused about how Vegas 10d exports MVC video taken from the TD10 to a 3D Blu-ray format - in terms of bit rate AND frame rate. Again, if I could get hold of some Sony MVC (full res 1920x1080 60i) files, I could play around with Vegas myself - as long as it doesn't have any trial version limitations.
post #142 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Could you provide a link, Frank?

I know the difference between bit rate and frame rate. I'm just confused about how Vegas 10d exports MVC video taken from the TD10 to a 3D Blu-ray format - in terms of bit rate AND frame rate. Again, if I could get hold of some Sony MVC (full res 1920x1080 60i) files, I could play around with Vegas myself - as long as it doesn't have any trial version limitations.

Obviously you know the difference, I just thought there was a misunderstanding of what I had written.
I started a thread in the other section.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20407877
post #143 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

You may be thinking of the AVCHD iso file that I uploaded to Dropbox. That was all side by side clips. Which mp4 clips are you referring to? mp4 clips from the JVC are full res, not side by side. JVC side by side clips have MTS extensions.

What I was asking was that you take some of the Sony full res MVC clips and export them from Vegas as a 3D Blu-ray disc, then create an iso file from the disc. That way, I could burn it to Blu-ray and play it in my 3D Blu-ray player. I've been assuming that Vegas doesn't degrade the MVC files (by lowering the bit rate) when it creates the disc. I'm really fuzzy as to what Vegas does when burning the disc.

Maybe icerat could upload a few Sony MVC clips. That way, anyone who wants to could play with the Vegas trial (if the trial is full featured).


I wanted icerat3 to do that but he doesn't have an ftp client. I even set up space on my server for him to use. Used to be Firefox and IE allowed FTP uploads but their docs now say they eliminated that feature for security reasons. I think one needs an ftp client these days to do that.


Edit- still learning...
Opened the custom and found this- The presets only had the 10MBPS so Vegas is good. I suppose now 25 is too low for some here and they will be claiming unless 50 it is no good.
LL
post #144 of 157
UGH! too many threads started in too many different sections. I'm having trouble keeping up. It's like taking a college course where the classes are split up between 6 different locations and no notice where the next lecture is at or when.
post #145 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

UGH! too many threads started in too many different sections. I'm having trouble keeping up. It's like taking a college course where the classes are split up between 6 different locations and no notice where the next lecture is at or when.

HaHaHa! You think that's difficult?

Try following all the threads while following wildlife around with your mouse and controlling the shooting parameters while watching last nights basketball game via WMC while typing while keeping another eye on the dog,etc..
post #146 of 157
Frank- I'll add some additional confusion / clarity. I edited my previous post. and put up a screen capture for Joe's question. I need to check out my GPU compatibility too. Vegas continues to be so powerful, I have so much to learn keeping me busy before the TD10 arrives. When that does, I will switch to learning curve on the camera. Just glad, I'm not doing robotics too.


PS- do you need a burn done on the fox iso or did Don Ferguson satisfy your curiosity? I have lots of BD-R here I can't use for business projects because they are Branded. I experiment with them. Save the printable ones for paying clients.
post #147 of 157
I'm enjoying reading your educational posts, Don. I might be the only one around reading them with my 3D glasses on.
post #148 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post



PS- do you need a burn done on the fox iso or did Don Ferguson satisfy your curiosity? I have lots of BD-R here I can't use for business projects because they are Branded. I experiment with them. Save the printable ones for paying clients.

Just saw your P.S.
Thanks for the offer but today I'm going to go out and buy some BD-rw discs.
I am still curious how the ISO I uploaded looks on the big screen however.
post #149 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Opened the custom and found this- The presets only had the 10MBPS so Vegas is good. I suppose now 25 is too low for some here and they will be claiming unless 50 it is no good.

Well Don, it depends on a lot of things. 25 Mbps (Mb = megabits, MB = megabytes) as an average bitrate of a multiple pass encode on a 2D Blu-ray is usually high enough. But as a constant bitrate in a single-pass encode with complex source material... it's less than ideal. Luckily these consumer camcorders resolve way less than full 1080 lines which is a huge help to the encoder software. Regardless, it will be interesting to learn how Vegas distributes the bitrate for 3D/MVC encoding.

By the by, have you guys succeeded in outputting MVC via "Render As..." function?
post #150 of 157
I didn't know your other thread existed, Frank. I have plenty of BD-Rs, so I'll download and burn a disc from your iso. I also have a Panasonic 110, Sony 570 and PS3 to test it on. That won't be til later today - Mother's Day stuff comes first. I was hoping Vegas would not degrade the image quality of the files, but it sounds like it will. I have no doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between 10mbps and the JVC's highest native rate. Even with SbS files, I'm having issues - in Premiere and PowerDirector 9. I'm sure it's mostly operator ignorance, but that doesn't make it any easier.

We need a central thread for many of these editing/authoring issues. I have so many questions about not only 3D MVC editing, but also about AVCHD editing and output (for SbS files). For selfish reasons, I'd like to start such a thread. The great thing about AVS is that it means we don't have to reinvent the wheel for every problem we run into. At this point, my contributions would be mostly questions but I think I could keep things organized. What do you think?
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