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Does your 2011 Samsung "D" plasma have brightness pops? - Page 36

post #1051 of 2249
The Eco sensor explanation doesn't hold water. The pops are a direct function of the brightness changes in the content. If a scene introduces a change in brightness, the TV responds after a tiny delay by increasing or decreasing the overall brightness. This causes objects in the scene that should have a consistent brightness to fluctuate.
It is a symptom of over aggressive dynamic shifting of gamma with the intent of bringing the better contrast ratio for differing scene content. This is very different from the contrast shifts you see due to ABL which is an attempt to keep the overall power down. ABL may cause "pops" during hockey games or scenes where there is a sudden addition of mostly white content. That is the ABL cutting in, limiting the overall brightness.
The pops that most of us are complaining about are seen in dark scenes where ABL isn't an issue. This is not done to save power. It is an issue with over agressive dynamic shifting of gamma done by code in the firmware that is attempting to actually bring a better contrast ratio.

If it were a mere issue with the eco sensor then we'd see pops only when the lighting in the room changes. I see pops whether watching in a pitch black room, with lamps on, or with sunlight. It is not a function of the eco sensor.
post #1052 of 2249
I wanted to buy the Samsung PS51D7000 but then i read about these brightness pops. Is it really that bad?
post #1053 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by B7192 View Post

I wanted to buy the Samsung PS51D7000 but then i read about these brightness pops. Is it really that bad?

Yes.
post #1054 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post


Yes.

No.
post #1055 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

No.

You just can't detect it.

But, that's not a bad thing. I wish it were true with me.

David Katz. of Cnet never detected it until I e-mailed him with specific discs and time stamps to view in a dark environment. He confirmed the issues and altered his review as a result. The same would be true for you.
post #1056 of 2249
It's not just that some people are fussier than others (that is a big part of it).
but also that some sets pop more than others. No panel is the same.
Also it varies greatly on what firmware version you have.
post #1057 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

It's not just that some people are fussier than others (that is a big part of it).
but also that some sets pop more than others. No panel is the same.
Also it varies greatly on what firmware version you have.

I am skeptical of panel variation in regards to popping. They are all designed the same way. The evidence we have suggests this is a deliberate response that Samsung incorporated to deal with power constraints. I have verified with several individuals the exact same pops in the same content/discs. Not a coincidence. There are some people who see the pops who have exchanged 3-4 sets with no difference. Some people just can't/don't/won't see it or very rarely see it as room lighting conditions make a huge difference and some people have much sharper eyes than others or notice certain details more than others. Nothing wrong with that - I wish I never saw it as I would have kept my set! It's a great set otherwise. Also, I am not aware of firmware affecting U.S. sets in regards to pops.
post #1058 of 2249
Where is the sensor?
post #1059 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

The Eco sensor explanation doesn't hold water. The pops are a direct function of the brightness changes in the content. If a scene introduces a change in brightness, the TV responds after a tiny delay by increasing or decreasing the overall brightness. This causes objects in the scene that should have a consistent brightness to fluctuate.
It is a symptom of over aggressive dynamic shifting of gamma with the intent of bringing the better contrast ratio for differing scene content. This is very different from the contrast shifts you see due to ABL which is an attempt to keep the overall power down. ABL may cause "pops" during hockey games or scenes where there is a sudden addition of mostly white content. That is the ABL cutting in, limiting the overall brightness.
The pops that most of us are complaining about are seen in dark scenes where ABL isn't an issue. This is not done to save power. It is an issue with over agressive dynamic shifting of gamma done by code in the firmware that is attempting to actually bring a better contrast ratio.

If it were a mere issue with the eco sensor then we'd see pops only when the lighting in the room changes. I see pops whether watching in a pitch black room, with lamps on, or with sunlight. It is not a function of the eco sensor.

Very true. Room lighting has zero to do with this which would seem to
eliminate the eco sensor as the cause. As i watch blu-ray with cs on ,
and sports this isn't an issue for me, but i can see how it would drive you crazy
with certain content.
post #1060 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

You just can't detect it.

But, that's not a bad thing. I wish it were true with me.

David Katz. of Cnet never detected it until I e-mailed him with specific discs and time stamps to view in a dark environment. He confirmed the issues and altered his review as a result. The same would be true for you.

i can see it, but i agree with Dave K. on the issue. it is rare and when it does happen its barely noticable. i choose to leave Cinema Smooth off and deal with them. it is that small of a issue to me.

i still choose to keep this TV over the ST30 it replaced and the ST30 is no slouch. i see you chose to keep niether.........
post #1061 of 2249
obveron and Bostonfan have it right, no matter the lighting conditions (I've tried them all) the fluctuations still occur just the same when watching hockey for example.

However, even though it is not related to the FB, there is something about the programming in the Eco sensor that never actually turns it off.
post #1062 of 2249
I'm watching Adele live at Albert Hall on bluray and the brightness pops are absolutely ridiculous...
post #1063 of 2249
what you are seeing during hockey and live concerts are not brightness pops those are actual camera flashes from the crowd and photographers.
you need to look at letterbox frame where the black bars go from black to almost gray or a dark scene that does the same.
hockey games are the same on a 3 year old panny and my new samsung those are flash bulbs reflecting off the ice and surrounding glass.
post #1064 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

You just can't detect it.

But, that's not a bad thing. I wish it were true with me.

David Katz. of Cnet never detected it until I e-mailed him with specific discs and time stamps to view in a dark environment. He confirmed the issues and altered his review as a result. The same would be true for you.

If one can't detect it then it doesn't exist perhaps? Why is it only with certain discs? Does that not indicate more a problem with the specific source involved, especially as they are likely being played back on different players, too? Discs aren't perfect.

I just read Katz' amended review and he had to hunt hard for the problem, and even noticed that on one disc that got the D8000 to change slightly, it did not on the D7000 so he postulates that since they had different picture settings, that that can affect the phenomenon. Maybe my settings are ideal, who knows.

Me, my 59D8000 does not exhibit this. I don't have the two movies you cite, nor have any interest in watching them (as I believe I've said before). Someone pointed out that Dark Knight had a change in the black bars in the beginning of the film, and I did see that but then went and put the same disc into a different player and watched it on a set with different technology (LCD) and saw it with that setup, too.

Even if it is occurring and I'm not "detecting" it, it certainly doesn't detract my enjoyment of the beautiful picture on this set. I've had no buzzing, peeling, fb, pops, you name it...
post #1065 of 2249
1 month 1 week update - ZERO brightness pops that ive seen. Watched blu rays, games, HD content everything

I did do slides but onlt 3-4 hours a night 3-4 times a week
post #1066 of 2249
Watched Rise of the Planet of the Apes on my PN43D430. Only caught one brief instance of brightness fluctuation. The scene where Caesar unleashes the cans of ALZ-113, the smoke coming out of the rolling cans throught the cages made the TV brightness pop. Didn't catch any other instance.
post #1067 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

The Eco sensor explanation doesn't hold water. The pops are a direct function of the brightness changes in the content. If a scene introduces a change in brightness, the TV responds after a tiny delay by increasing or decreasing the overall brightness. This causes objects in the scene that should have a consistent brightness to fluctuate.
It is a symptom of over aggressive dynamic shifting of gamma with the intent of bringing the better contrast ratio for differing scene content. This is very different from the contrast shifts you see due to ABL which is an attempt to keep the overall power down. ABL may cause "pops" during hockey games or scenes where there is a sudden addition of mostly white content. That is the ABL cutting in, limiting the overall brightness.
The pops that most of us are complaining about are seen in dark scenes where ABL isn't an issue. This is not done to save power. It is an issue with over agressive dynamic shifting of gamma done by code in the firmware that is attempting to actually bring a better contrast ratio.

If it were a mere issue with the eco sensor then we'd see pops only when the lighting in the room changes. I see pops whether watching in a pitch black room, with lamps on, or with sunlight. It is not a function of the eco sensor.

I've had the TV for about a month now, I see the fluctuations, and I believe what you say here is exactly what's happening. What puzzles me is that if the issue really is some type of non-defeatable dynamic contrast how come Samsung hasn't been able to address it with firmware updates?
post #1068 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I am skeptical of panel variation in regards to popping. They are all designed the same way. The evidence we have suggests this is a deliberate response that Samsung incorporated to deal with power constraints. I have verified with several individuals the exact same pops in the same content/discs. Not a coincidence. There are some people who see the pops who have exchanged 3-4 sets with no difference. Some people just can't/don't/won't see it or very rarely see it as room lighting conditions make a huge difference and some people have much sharper eyes than others or notice certain details more than others. Nothing wrong with that - I wish I never saw it as I would have kept my set! It's a great set otherwise. Also, I am not aware of firmware affecting U.S. sets in regards to pops.

Again, my 51d490 does NOT pop at all during normal use, PERIOD. It's not a matter of being able to detect it, as my eyes are VERY sensitive to such visual deviations. For example, I've never been able to tolerate DLP sets because I can see the rainbow effect without even trying. On top of that, my Sammy plasma from 3 or 4 years ago had a similar brightness fluctuation problem that drove me nuts until I returned it.

The only time the levels fluctuate on my current set is if I turn Dynamic Contrast ON (which is to be expected). With dynamic contrast off, the picture is rock solid, no matter what settings I mess around with, and no matter what the lighting conditions.

A good test example is the Hobbit trailer. With Dynamic Contrast ON, the brightness level shifts during the transition from the scene with Gandalf against the bright sky to the next scene in the woods (the levels pop after the camera cuts to the next scene). With Dynamic Contrast OFF, there is no fluctuation whatsoever. I imagine people who are having this issue will see a shift even with Dynamic Contrast off.
post #1069 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_carpens View Post

Again, my 51d490 does NOT pop at all during normal use, PERIOD. It's not a matter of being able to detect it, as my eyes are VERY sensitive to such visual deviations. For example, I've never been able to tolerate DLP sets because I can see the rainbow effect without even trying. On top of that, my Sammy plasma from 3 or 4 years ago had a similar brightness fluctuation problem that drove me nuts until I returned it.

The only time the levels fluctuate on my current set is if I turn Dynamic Contrast ON (which is to be expected). With dynamic contrast off, the picture is rock solid, no matter what settings I mess around with, and no matter what the lighting conditions.

A good test example is the Hobbit trailer. With Dynamic Contrast ON, the brightness level shifts during the transition from the scene with Gandalf against the bright sky to the next scene in the woods (the levels pop after the camera cuts to the next scene). With Dynamic Contrast OFF, there is no fluctuation whatsoever. I imagine people who are having this issue will see a shift even with Dynamic Contrast off.

Yours does it too. Period. Some settings make them less frequent and/Or noticeable.

I want EVERYONE new to this thread and to a D-Series 2011 Samsung to be aware of this problem.

This thread keeps going back and forth with new users wondering the same things about about what could be causing the fluctuations.

The truth is that they all do it. If you can't see them, good for you. Don't look for them. If you are in denial and must see them, try multiple sources such as standard def TV, Netflix, DVD, BD, etc. if you have Directv, try local channels with high compression. The shows Big Bang Theory and New Girl fluctuate. The network Audience on DTV contains the show Damages. Watch that for all kinds of pops. The IFC and Audience network contains pops like mad.

The fluctuations are inherent to the way the panels are driven and will not be fixed. Understand this.

I have been observing this thread since the beginning with the hopes of a fix and been reluctant to post. However, it almost seems like there are Samsung spies in this thread at times.

Good luck to everyone. If you are within your return window, return your set. And note that The vt35's color and similar fluctuating blacks have been fixed, and that I suggest you buy that set if you want a stable plasma picture.

Consider yourself warned and updated. Ironically, last year I returned my vt25 because of this problem and purchased a C8000. Samsung replaced my faulty c8000 with a D8000. Well the very fluctuations I was trying to avoid actually plague the D8000. And now, the Panasonic equiv set does not have them. It's super.

I am watching my D8000 right now. But as always, I keep cinema smooth on to reduce the fluctuations and deal with the grey blacks.

You may be wondering what I am doing about it..I am awaiting the firmware for the color fix and pulsing on the Elite and selling my D8000. You always read about people saying they are done with Samsung. Well I am telling the truth. After owning 2 Kuros and a 7g Elite, the image stability on the D Series is not acceptable by any means. I won't watch DVDs on this set and rarely watch DTV With the lights down. Oh yeah, don't look for the fluctuations during football, you won't see them. Not sure why -but you won't.

Happy fluctuate day everyone. Kudos to those that don't seem to experience their awesomeness.
post #1070 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post


Yours does it too. Period. Some settings make them less frequent and/Or noticeable.

I want EVERYONE new to this thread and to a D-Series 2011 Samsung to be aware of this problem.

This thread keeps going back and forth with new users wondering the same things about about what could be causing the fluctuations.

The truth is that they all do it. If you can't see them, good for you. Don't look for them. If you are in denial and must see them, try multiple sources such as standard def TV, Netflix, DVD, BD, etc. if you have Directv, try local channels with high compression. The shows Big Bang Theory and New Girl fluctuate. The network Audience on DTV contains the show Damages. Watch that for all kinds of pops. The IFC and Audience network contains pops like mad.

The fluctuations are inherent to the way the panels are driven and will not be fixed. Understand this.

I have been observing this thread since the beginning with the hopes of a fix and been reluctant to post. However, it almost seems like there are Samsung spies in this thread at times.

Good luck to everyone. If you are within your return window, return your set. And note that The vt35's color and similar fluctuating blacks have been fixed, and that I suggest you buy that set if you want a stable plasma picture.

Consider yourself warned and updated. Ironically, last year I returned my vt25 because of this problem and purchased a C8000. Samsung replaced my faulty c8000 with a D8000. Well the very fluctuations I was trying to avoid actually plague the D8000. And now, the Panasonic equiv set does not have them. It's super.

I am watching my D8000 right now. But as always, I keep cinema smooth on to reduce the fluctuations and deal with the grey blacks.

You may be wondering what I am doing about it..I am awaiting the firmware for the color fix and pulsing on the Elite and selling my D8000. You always read about people saying they are done with Samsung. Well I am telling the truth. After owning 2 Kuros and a 7g Elite, the image stability on the D Series is not acceptable by any means. I won't watch DVDs on this set and rarely watch DTV With the lights down. Oh yeah, don't look for the fluctuations during football, you won't see them. Not sure why -but you won't.

Happy fluctuate day everyone. Kudos to those that don't seem to experience their awesomeness.

I agree with you 100%.
post #1071 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by geerd View Post

what you are seeing during hockey and live concerts are not brightness pops those are actual camera flashes from the crowd and photographers.
you need to look at letterbox frame where the black bars go from black to almost gray or a dark scene that does the same.
hockey games are the same on a 3 year old panny and my new samsung those are flash bulbs reflecting off the ice and surrounding glass.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. I can tell the difference between the camera flashes and white dimming. I'm sitting here watching the winter classic and you can clearly see the entire ice surface getting dim and brightening as the camera pans from side to side.
post #1072 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by amazingly smooth View Post

i agree with you 100%.

+2
post #1073 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler View Post

Yours does it too. Period. Some settings make them less frequent and/Or noticeable.

I've turned the cell light all the way up down. I've turned the contrast way up and down. I've messed around with just about every setting possible. I've watched HD content, SD content, watched content off my PC, played a bunch of different video gamesthere are absolutely no fluctuations unless Dynamic Contrast is turned on.

Hook your TV up to your PC and watch the delayed brightness pop when you maximize and minimize windows to the taskbar. I've seen a D-series do it on a Youtube video that someone recorded to demonstrate the pops.

And guess what...I SAW the pop effect in the video. I know what it looks like and how to identify it. It DOESN'T happen on my TV.

In other words, my set doesn't do it.

I can't vouch for the other models, but I can say with certainty that there are 51D490s out there that do NOT pop.
post #1074 of 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash311 View Post

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. I can tell the difference between the camera flashes and white dimming. I'm sitting here watching the winter classic and you can clearly see the entire ice surface getting dim and brightening as the camera pans from side to side.

Most plasma TVs (regardless of manufacturer) dim slightly when displaying a full white screen. It's due to voltage restraints, and is NOT related to this brightness popping issue.
post #1075 of 2249
Agreed, the white dimming is the not the pop issue we are complaining about.

My PN59D550 had no popping issue before I upgraded the f/w. I know what the popping is, I have it and it drives me nuts. It didn't have the issue before.

Audiofiler claiming everyone's set has the pops as if he has seen every set is just not rigoruous enough to be proof. "period".
post #1076 of 2249
i havent had any pops but can someone explain exactly what they look like or as youtube video?
post #1077 of 2249
You can simulate the worst ones by simply using the gamma adjustment in the advanced menu. Raise it by 1 - that resembles a "pop".
post #1078 of 2249
Just ordered and waiting to receive my pn64d8000. Been doing a lot of research and I'm just mesmerized by this issue. All venders and Samsung seem to not acknowledge the problem. Also, I've seen a lot of demos without any evidence. Like standing in Best Buy staring at it for hours and watching the 2011 HDTV Shootout (search it on YouTube) where not a single "pop" happened. Why is it that when the set is being demo'd and/or a Samsung rep is in the room, this problem doesn't exist?

I'm crossing my fingers my TV was one of those intended to be a demo....
post #1079 of 2249
I have a PN51D6500 for about a month running firmware 1013, and I havn't noticed any fluctuations.

My question is, should I update the firmware to the newest one? So far I havn't dared, since it is working so nicely now.
post #1080 of 2249
I don't see these on my set (64" d550). Does anybody have a video to show us what is being referred to as brightness pops?

Mike
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