Onkyo Really Cutting Corners this Year?

What do you mean by half power?

And THD is not absolute. It rises with power output. You have to make sure you are comparing apples to oranges.

The rating below seems quite respectable, actually.

110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

As Michael pointed out the THD is 0.08% @ rated power (110W x 2) in 8 Ohms 20Hz-20kHz, so everything seems to be comparable to last year's models..

Just my $0.02...

Did you mean "You have to make sure you are [not] comparing apples to oranges?"

Fine, be that way I was tired. The dog ate my homework...etc

I don't know, I can see why one would say that. If you look at the specs for the TX-SR509 it's rated at 0.7% THD at rated power and 0.08% at half power. To be honest while THD is but one measure of quality, 0.7% is a pretty awful rating for a modern receiver in the price range of the 509. The 509 has a street price of $350. By way of comparison, I paid $350 for my Pioneer VSX-30 and it is rated at 0.08% at rated power.

Seems to me they've cheapened the amplifier quite a bit...

This spec, (80 W + 80 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.7%, 2 channels driven, FTC)) from the 509, is not particularly impressive. However, it's a $400 receiver, and as such, when spec'd full bandwidth, maybe it's not too bad.

Yamaha's 471 is worse (85W (8ohms, 0.9% THD, but at 1khz)

The VSX 30 LISTS at $550, make sure you are comparing models with the same approximate MSRP!!

MSRP means squat. Both receivers sell to me at the same price - $350. More to the point, the TX-SR508 is rated to 80wpc x2 at 0.08% while the TX-SR509 is 80wpc x2 at 0.7%. If MSRP is a sticking point to you then the VSX-521 retails at $249 yet it rates 80wpc x2 at 0.08% THD. The Denon AVR-1611 has a $399 MSRP and is rated at 75 wpc x7 at 0.08% THD.

It seems limited to the 509 model but either way it is not a good sign...

That's probably a fair comparison between the 508 and 509. Economy might still be tough, and they might be doing cost cutting.

I missed the THD section, probably because they claimed .08% THD above that with the rated power claim.

As they say 110 watts, 20hz to 20kzh, .08% THD two channels, FTC, I have NO clue why they then say something like .08% THD half power. I don't know what that means, as it does not match up with the FTC power specified.

Confusing, and I don't know where they are coming from.

I just picked up a 509 the other day. I just checked on the onkyo site the 509 has the same power consumption as the 508, and it is still a discreet amp design. I am very happy with the power output of the 509.To me what onkyo added to the new 9 series more than makes up for any so-called loss.Also the 509 has the same dynamic power output as the 508.

Im the proud owner of a TX-SR805. After that receiver was released things started to go down hill as far as amplifiers in Onkyo's are concerned. I only use my 805 as a pre pro now and I have dedicated amplifiers for all 7 channels. So switching to another receiver with poor power does not really worry me to much. What does concern me is some of the functions that have been taken away. Such as in when doing manual calibrations. In my 805 you can manually adjust the EQ as well as tone control for all channels. Now in most of the newer models you can only do this for the front channels and maybe the sub. No surround adjustment. My receiver also allows you to adjust individual channel volumes for all channels while watching a movie. These settings are not permanent and are reset when the receiver is powered off. Again this is only offered on the front and center channels and possibly the sub channel on some receivers. From what I can tell you need to go all the way up to the 5008 with Onkyo or up the chain with Integra to get the options that my 805 has. This does not seem like a step forward to me. I know what the answer is. Most people don't use this stuff. They just use Audyssey. Well that's not a good answer in my opinion. I wan't all the adjustment options. Give them back!! And put the honest power supplies and amplifiers that kick butt back in while your at it!!

They didn't spec the freq response of the 708 for the THD rating (as if that matters). All numbers published should be taken with a grain of salt as there's so many variables at play.

Do you mean don't believe the factory published numbers? Such as specs stating 130 WPC by the factory and then bench tested by an independent test and the amplifier only putting out 30 WPC. Thats reason enough for me to question the numbers published by the factory. Especially Onkyo since this seems to be their current trend. And Im a multiple Onkyo owner. At least I got my receivers before the numbers went down hill. This seems to be the trend in the last 3 years. Take more quality and power out of the products and then lie to the consumer.

Sounds to me like you should look elsewhere for your next receiver. If you're disappointed with Onkyo's offerings there are plenty of other brands to choose from.

Funny part is that you don't even use the honest power supplies and amplifiers that kick butt since you have external amps.

The amplifiers in the 805 worked just fine for me for a while when my system was not as demanding. As good as the 805 is it still has its limits. I out grew the 805's amplifiers and have since switched to dedicated amplifiers. Im mainly disappointed with some of Onkyo's design changes since the 805. Not all of them but a lot of them.

I can't hear the difference between a receiver with different THD's with similar specs and are in the same price range.

According to my reading of the specs on the Onkyo website, the distortion of the Onkyo model 509 receiver at rated power is "downgraded" (worse) compared to the previous model 508. However, there is no such "downgrading" of models 609 and 709 compared to previous models 608 and 708. Look at the "Amplifier section: Power Output" under the specifications tab. Here is exact quoted text from the Onkyo web site (http://onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver)

TX-SR508

TX-NR509

TX-SR608

TX-NR609

TX-NR708

TX-NR709

The Onkyo site indicates the THD into 8 Ohms to be 0.08% @ 40W/CH for the 509. So yes in a direct comparison to the 508 it has higher THD, however most buyers of an entry-level AVR such as the 509 have no clue about THD %. Yet the 509 still had adequate power for many entry-level applications..

Keep in mind that Onkyo has added USB, network and internet radio in the 509, features not found in the 508. Essentially they traded some output power for some great features, which is not a bad compromise.. IMHO..

Just my $0.02...

Yep. Eventually receivers will be $300, and have EVERYTHING you could ever want...

Except power. The power supply will be comparable to the wall wart charging your cell phone

Again, read the complete set of specs on the Onkyo website (http://onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver), including the part of the specs that I quoted directly and you apparently would like to ignore.

The power spec of the TX-NR609 is "Front L/R 100 W + 100 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)", exactly the same as the comparable spec of the TX-SR608. The power spec of the TX-NR709 is "Front L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)", exactly the same as the comparable spec of the TX-NR708.

I am aware that "6th category down" there is a spec that reads
"THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08% (Rated power) "
for the TX-SR608 and TX-NR708,
while the comparable spec reads
THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, Half power)"
for the TX-NR609 and TX-NR709. But the THD spec for the newer models does not indicate any degradation of amplifier performance, as compared to the older models, if we take into account all the specs for the amplifier section (rather than taking one line from the specs out of context and ignoring other specs).

In other words, the power and THD specs for the older and newer models can be paraphrased as follows:

older models, TX-SR608 and TX-NR708: the rated power (80 W or 100W) is produced into 8 ohm loads, two channels driven, with 0.08% or less THD from 20 Hz - 20 kHz; and, in addition, the THD is 0.08% or less at the rated power

newer models, TX-NR609 and TX-NR709: the rated power (80 W or 100W) is produced into 8 ohm loads, two channels driven, with 0.08% or less THD from 20 Hz - 20 kHz; and, in addition, the THD is 0.08% or less at half the rated power, from 20 Hz - 20 kHz