Onkyo Really Cutting Corners this Year? - Page 2

This is what makes me LOL at AVS at times. For the most part, there are very useful threads here, but sometimes, not so much.

You all can argue about .07% vs. .08% THD at whatever rated power all you want but the fact is this: if one were to put the 508 and 509 in separate opaque boxes, have them both hooked to the same speaker array playing the same source material at the same levels, and do an on/off, blind, A/B comparison with anyone on this thread listening, not one of you all would be able to tell the difference (including me).

Despite what many hear think, not one of us have the golden ears necessary to reliably and repeatably discern the sound quality difference between the 508 and 509.

Because Onkyo wanted to advise the consumer @ what power output level the THD% would be equal to last year's model. Actually it is a credit to Onkyo to disclose this specification as other brands may have just left it open.

As I posted previously entry-level AVRs are purchased by less experienced shoppers who only know more watts are better..
But have little or no understanding about other specs..

Just my $0.02...

Nope don't work for Onkyo..
But we do know their overseas AVR design team quite well and how the brand thinks....

Just my $0.02..

Seriously?

Can people here not read? There's a difference between the THD specified in the power rating spec and the THD+ NOISE spec.

RTFM. The specs tab on the website only tells part of the story.

I don't think that's the OP's point. It's the gradual degradation of quality. Supposedly, anything under 1% THD is inaudible anyway. But again, that's not the point here.

This has been going on, I know, since the x05 models. Look at the 805 specs, then any 80x model after. Same story. The "quality" if you will, has been on a decline.

Don't forget:

3. It does exist, and it is important.


As for the "G" spot.......I tried to read the manual and compare specs between different models. Now I'm divorced.

Well, that's just it - we don't know why. It looks suspicious, but since the THD stated with the full power ratings are otherwise unchanged, we can only speculate why the different phraseology.

It could be that Onkyo has used less expensive components, and that the THD would be higher at the same power used in rating last year's model: but if so, I would have expected the section stating "Front L/R 100 W + 100 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)" would somehow be impacted, since I read that as meaning that 0.08% THD occurs at 100W in 2channels, not "half-power".

It could be that Onkyo is adjusting it's wording to match an internal or industry standard to report THD at half-power. It is possible that 0.08% THD occurs throughout the range from half-power to full power, and the stats reflect that. That wouldn't surprise me: THD might have a noise-floor of 0.08% regardless of actual power, due to the design of the components and nature of the type of amplification circuit.

It could be that one or more of the stats reported are wrong/typos, and that either the THD at full power should be higher or the THD at half-power could/should be lower.

So while I appreciate this being brought to our attention, until we have some more hard facts I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape about it: informed/cautious, yes; alarmed no.

IMHO,

shinksma

Talk about the pot calling the kettle "black"...



AJ

First, you asked a loaded question, jumped to a conclusion, and generally got your panties in a bunch.

Second, you acted indignant when others pointed out a seemingly contradictory spec.

Third, even when presented with the contradictory spec, you continued to fixate on only the spec that seemingly supported your point.

Summarily, you were as guilty as anyone else of "throwing out assumptions and false facts" and presupposing what "could be." To boot, you were brusque with members who were only trying to help answer your original question.

AJ

Dude, you are getting far too defensive. I think my post was a valid exploration of possible causes, to which we still don't have a firm answer. My post was no more speculative that yours. And this is the post where I believe WiWavelength describes your reaction as brusque.

Your statement in a follow-up post:

is interesting, because in science, initial investigations always start with an unexplained observation ("THD stated at half-power vs rated power, I wonder why?"), then the scientist comes up with a bunch of possible explanations to help guide initial investigations ("Hmm, could be this, could be that"), and hopefully concludes with an explanation ("Onkyo has used lower quality components" or "Onkyo is measuring things differently but quality is unchanged").

If a "scientist" takes a single datum and goes directly to a conclusion, it usually gets a lot of raised eyebrows.

You might be right, but your (lack of) methodology provides no back-up.

The manual specs, as linked, indicate THD+Noise for the 609 at half-power, but if you look at the same info in the 608 manual, it states THD (only) at rated (full) power.

So we're still comparing apples to oranges, and the question now becomes: why is Onkyo specifying THD+Noise for this model series when they only specified THD for previous models?

I'm not defending Onkyo, I just want to know why the differences in specification data.

To clarify, the spec to which you are focusing our attention is THD+Noise, and differs from previous year's specs. So the fact that it now states half-power vs. rated power is muddied by the fact that it is for a different measurement, assuming THD+Noise =/= THD.

Stating that you consider this year's Onkyo models to be junk based on a single spec with a different context compared to last year's model is jumping to a conclusion - you don't have any evidence that the receivers actually operate any different from last year, only that a spec is measured and stated differently from last year, implying loss of quality.

If you had said "I am concerned that this weasel-worded THD spec is the result of lower-quality components, and an overall lowering in quality of the receiver" then perhaps this whole thread would have ended with everyone agreeing that "hmm, it does look suspicious, anyone know why Onkyo is measuring THD+Noise for this particluar spec at half-power?"

Anyway, until someone can explain the reason for Onkyo's differing specs and measurement technique, I don't see this getting resolved any further.

shinksma

Ummmmmmmm.........

Did I miss something here? I thought the OP's whole intent was to question the change.

Did he ever say the new models were junk? I gathered that this thread is intended to question the spec and discuss the variance.

It looks like people are getting really offended by having their opinions questioned, since I have seen little here backed up by any kind of facts. All postulation, followed by getting upset that the OP questions the validity of the assumed reasons.

Again, I questioned the change in specs from the 805 to 806 models. Not much of a change, but enough to make me wonder if Onkyo has been gradually "cutting corners" over the past several years. I don't doubt it. That's what companies do to reap more profit. Look at yogurt. One company reduced cup size to 6oz. Soon after, all the other producers cut back to 6 oz. Small change, but in the bigger picture, it was a huge change.

No different with Onkyo. Cut some power here, THD there.....save some bucks. Minute changes, but changes nonetheless.

Yes, when the OP stated:

I agree the intent behind the questioning of the spec change is valid, but the overall approach leaves something to be desired.

And it wouldn't surprise me to find out the "quality" has been trimmed to cut costs and afford the better features. I just don't like it being an automatic conclusion, as presented.

shinksma

I dont think the real issue is what the THD is at half power or full power, as it isnt a constant figure. What you really needs to see is a chart of the distortion ratio from beginning to end.

If you saw that, you'd find that many receivers have some ugly numbers at low power (which is where most of your listening is, particularly for two-channel music). Some have distortion levels that are well within the audible range. But to worry about the THD at 140 watts is useless, as you'll never listen at that level unless you want to be fitted for hearing aids soon.

OK....I'm going to go comparison shopping for G-spots now. Hopefully, I won't find that the quality is being reduced as new models come out.

I wish. As long as these $300 receivers with everything I want have pre-amp outputs, everything would be cool.

Nice

Well, I don't know the answer. But just because they list THD at half power, does not mean they can't hit their rated power at full power. Maybe the half power thing is nothing bad.

Someone bored should email Onkyo, and ask them what the purpose to the half power spec is? Be interesting to hear the answer, if a knowledgable person answers it.

How do you know? Copy and paste your email here. We'll be the judges of that!

LOL

This would be great. They need to have pre amp outs, as well as lots of tweaking capabilities for us that like to do manual calibrations and they could put in a good version of Audyssey for the others that prefer using auto calibration. We all know this isn't going to happen.

One of Denon's receivers is 4.4 pounds lighter this year. That can't be a good sign. I've always thought weight was good, which is one reason I've been tempted by the Onkyo 800 series - despite running so hot.

"Well, the AVR-3312CI is 17.1" wide, 6.7" high, and 15" deep weighing in a 22.5 lbs while the previous mode, the AVR-3311CI was, according to the website, the exact same dimensions but weighed in at 26.9lbs. We've found that receiver manufacturers are notorious for mistakes on their websites so perhaps this is an example." http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...-avr-3312ci-fl