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Offical Canon HF G10 Jello-Vision Problem Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfurbal View Post

That is good to know. Your video looks significantly more intense then anything I could ever get my camcorder to do, because that was pretty bad lol. Maybe the pro version received some extra care and tweaking that the G10 didn't deserve or something.


I think my OIS was knackered.
post #62 of 194
Maybe it's simply that the xa10's are better fine tuned than the g10s?
post #63 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

I think my OIS was knackered.

The other G10 footage doesn't even look as bad as your video did. Actually I would say most of that other test footage is on par with how mine turned out with the XA10. But your stands out as being exceptionally wacky, so it would be interesting when you get your replacement to see if it is as messed up or much more reasonable.

Also in my video it probably appeared as though I was stomping the ground because I was actually wearing flip flops. So my technique of walking is a bit more rough then it would have been had I really been trying to get quality footage, lol.
post #64 of 194
I had this kind of edge distorted picture (jello or whatsoever ) one time when fast lateral paning with my tm700 widest angle ; low light, slow shuter speed, Class4 sdhc in a church full of archtectural details (bits to treat)
It has maybe to do with data rate transfert the angular speed when paning is somehow faster in the edges while in widest angle then in the middle (more information to deal with in the edge than in the middle) .
My guess since it never happend in my ols HDV HC1 Sony (even with wide angle 0.7 lens) is that it has to do with the out of synchronisation transfert rate of a whole picture.
Maybe solution : Higher Class higher quality sdhc ? ?
Another hypothesis is the stabilisation system dysfunction.
post #65 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Maybe it's simply that the xa10's are better fine tuned than the g10s?

I have been thinking right along that the factory tweaked the xa10's better than the g10 after people noticed issues. The camera body and electronics are a little different just to be able to attach the handle and the Ir settings. Maybe some internals are different. Plus it is a bottom end priced pro type camera and maybe they set them up better. I wish I had a g10 at my local BB to compare. Who knows I'm just glad the xa10 is not showing or showing as much the jello vision.
post #66 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post

I had this kind of edge distorted picture (jello or whatsoever ) one time when fast lateral paning with my tm700 widest angle ; low light, slow shuter speed, Class4 sdhc in a church full of archtectural details (bits to treat)
It has maybe to do with data rate transfert the angular speed when paning is somehow faster in the edges while in widest angle then in the middle (more information to deal with in the edge than in the middle) .
My guess since it never happend in my ols HDV HC1 Sony (even with wide angle 0.7 lens) is that it has to do with the out of synchronisation transfert rate of a whole picture.
Maybe solution : Higher Class higher quality sdhc ? ?
Another hypothesis is the stabilisation system dysfunction.

Very possible. I noticed in the most recent video posted that when the camera was moving that objects looked more distorted (straight lines curved) at about the 3/4 mark of the frame then when they got to the very edge. Very odd phenomena.
Pretty noticeable around the 6:30 point.
post #67 of 194
Got my HFg10 late yesterday, tested it out this morning and only very, very slight wiggle on the last 10% of frame lines. Now I must say the picture looks much better on Sony Bravia 40" than my brand new Macbook Pro. I hope my computer dosn't have a problem, it was custom ordered and maxed out with all high end options from China, man $4,950.00 is a lot for a 17" laptop, but I should be able to process and render in record speeds while driving from location to location. I will see. But the wiggle jello syndrome is un-noticeable by friends and family who have just finished veiwing, and when I pointed it out, they laughed and said I was being way to (ANAL) and that the picture quality was fantastic!! while being veiwed on my Sony TV.

purplestingers
post #68 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Maybe it's simply that the xa10's are better fine tuned than the g10s?

It could well be Dave, but for the fact that I've seen a number of G10 videos that showed nothing like what I saw in Steve's clip.
post #69 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post

I had this kind of edge distorted picture (jello or whatsoever ) one time when fast lateral paning with my tm700 widest angle ; low light, slow shuter speed, Class4 sdhc in a church full of archtectural details (bits to treat)
It has maybe to do with data rate transfert the angular speed when paning is somehow faster in the edges while in widest angle then in the middle (more information to deal with in the edge than in the middle) .
My guess since it never happend in my ols HDV HC1 Sony (even with wide angle 0.7 lens) is that it has to do with the out of synchronisation transfert rate of a whole picture.
Maybe solution : Higher Class higher quality sdhc ? ?
Another hypothesis is the stabilisation system dysfunction.

That's exactly what I had said before but some don't accept it. People did complain of jello in the 700s and I've seen footage that clearly demonstrated it.
post #70 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplestinger View Post

Got my HFg10 late yesterday, tested it out this morning and only very, very slight wiggle on the last 10% of frame lines. Now I must say the picture looks much better on Sony Bravia 40" than my brand new Macbook Pro. I hope my computer dosn't have a problem, it was custom ordered and maxed out with all high end options from China, man $4,950.00 is a lot for a 17" laptop, but I should be able to process and render in record speeds while driving from location to location. I will see. But the wiggle jello syndrome is un-noticeable by friends and family who have just finished veiwing, and when I pointed it out, they laughed and said I was being way to (ANAL) and that the picture quality was fantastic!! while being veiwed on my Sony TV.

purplestingers

So we have a G10 that has minimal problems that most people haven't noticed. So perhaps this is from a different lot?

Enjoy your cam.
post #71 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfurbal View Post

The other G10 footage doesn't even look as bad as your video did. Actually I would say most of that other test footage is on par with how mine turned out with the XA10. But your stands out as being exceptionally wacky, so it would be interesting when you get your replacement to see if it is as messed up or much more reasonable.

Also in my video it probably appeared as though I was stomping the ground because I was actually wearing flip flops. So my technique of walking is a bit more rough then it would have been had I really been trying to get quality footage, lol.


Well I did say from the beginning that I felt mine was defective. I think the jello issue is real but it certainly is worse on some cameras more than on others. The XA10 seems to have much less problem with it and it is really a different camera, different body and similar guts.
The OIS in the Canon is worse than the Panasonic and Sony.
I'd love to be able to order a new unit but everyone is taking Easter off as several stores are closed today.
Hopefully I will be able to order one this week.
post #72 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toni1 View Post

I had this kind of edge distorted picture (jello or whatsoever ) one time when fast lateral paning with my tm700 widest angle ; low light, slow shuter speed, Class4 sdhc in a church full of archtectural details (bits to treat)
It has maybe to do with data rate transfert the angular speed when paning is somehow faster in the edges while in widest angle then in the middle (more information to deal with in the edge than in the middle) .
My guess since it never happend in my ols HDV HC1 Sony (even with wide angle 0.7 lens) is that it has to do with the out of synchronisation transfert rate of a whole picture.
Maybe solution : Higher Class higher quality sdhc ? ?
Another hypothesis is the stabilisation system dysfunction.


I think any CMOS camera can have jello. The thing is to what degree. Yours was in a limited situation and doesn't manifest itself every single time. Mine was pretty consistant. I use a very good Class 10 Lexar Pro as well as the internal memory on the camcorder, so I don'tthink for me this was the problem.

I think some of your ideas are worthy of merit but from using the camera I'd say it's likely an IS problem magnified by an extremely wide angle lens since zooming in pretty much makes it go away.

But who really knows.
post #73 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

I too think that the canon PQ is better than the Sony. The dynamic range is very impressive. But maybe the IS in all forms is just really really bad? That coupled with the very wide angle lens gives a really wobbly look with any panning, walking movement that is anything more than REALLY slow?

I'm hoping that it is just a few bad ones as some of the motion footage I'm seeing is very ugly and disorienting. I can't believe that this many people could be this unsteady at shooting.

It looks like such a tremendous camera if it doesn't inherently have this issue. But if it does I just can't use it to replace my 550 because I do a TON of handheld shooting and can't feel like I would have to be glued to the spot and hold my breath while shooting.

Dave, I recall you being pretty impressed with the walking footage I uploaded from my XA10. So it does show the camera is capable of producing good, relatively stable walking footage, if not quite as good as the Sony is capable of in 'walking mode'. But it shows the cam is capable of minimal artifacts, yet presenting a great picture with wonderful dynamic range and color.
post #74 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


It could well be Dave, but for the fact that I've seen a number of G10 videos that showed nothing like what I saw in Steve's clip.

Maybe the QC on the xa10 is better and we're just seeing some buggy g10s that aren't calibrated correctly?
post #75 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Maybe the QC on the xa10 is better and we're just seeing some buggy g10s that aren't calibrated correctly?


Dave this is very likely the case at least for this first batch that was shipped, at least I hope so.
post #76 of 194
Hope so too. I just walked to bhphoto only to discover they're closed until next week for the holidays. Should have remembered that.
post #77 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

Dave this is very likely the case at least for this first batch that was shipped, at least I hope so.

? We all saw Ken's drunken trees on Vimeo. What QC difference are you talking about?
post #78 of 194
[quote=Steve Cebu;20332502]I think any CMOS camera can have jello. The thing is to what degree. Yours was in a limited situation and doesn't manifest itself every single time. Mine was pretty consistant. I use a very good Class 10 Lexar Pro as well as the internal memory on the camcorder, so I don'tthink for me this was the problem.

Maybe yes that you got a defective unit but this issue seems to be common like my sd700.

Since you seem to have a good Class 10 then one alternative explanation is that the mess originates from the different avchd coding speed shift between fast edge and slower center. Higher end pro cams wont have this issue since they have better power ability to deal with that and keep the whole picture synchronised.
This is just one possible explanation.
post #79 of 194
Thread Starter 
[quote=toni1;20332815]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

I think any CMOS camera can have jello. The thing is to what degree. Yours was in a limited situation and doesn't manifest itself every single time. Mine was pretty consistant. I use a very good Class 10 Lexar Pro as well as the internal memory on the camcorder, so I don'tthink for me this was the problem.

Maybe yes that you got a defective unit but this issue seems to be common like my sd700.

Since you seem to have a good Class 10 then one alternative explanation is that the mess originates from the different avchd coding speed shift between fast edge and slower center. Higher end pro cams wont have this issue since they have better power ability to deal with that and keep the whole picture synchronised.
This is just one possible explanation.


I suppose it could be the problem. It's so hard to say when you have a lot of factors involved. I really didn't have this issue with the TM900 at all. Of course that had excellent OIS and a high bitrate.
post #80 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

Well I did say from the beginning that I felt mine was defective. I think the jello issue is real but it certainly is worse on some cameras more than on others. The XA10 seems to have much less problem with it and it is really a different camera, different body and similar guts.
The OIS in the Canon is worse than the Panasonic and Sony.
I'd love to be able to order a new unit but everyone is taking Easter off as several stores are closed today.
Hopefully I will be able to order one this week.

Having had the 700 for a year and now the 900, I would say the Canon OIS is on par with the Panasonics, I just don't see any significant difference in their stability. I do think the Sony is better for walking stability, but as my video showed, in a properly functioning Canon XA10, it's perfectly fine IMO.
post #81 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Maybe the QC on the xa10 is better and we're just seeing some buggy g10s that aren't calibrated correctly?

I would agree given that one recent poster indicated his G10 doesn't seem to have jello (or to any significant degree). So perhaps Steve's was from a bad lot.

In all honesty, I'd be surprised if Canon actually did provide a different level of tweaking. If you look at other companies where a consumer and prosumer model exist that are essentially the same sans some features, they generally behave almost identically.

Could this be different in Canon's case? Who knows. But given that there are unquestionably non-jello videos that have been on the internet from other G10's and we now have a recent purchase of a G10 that also shows no issues, I'm more inclined to think it's a defect in a certain batch of G10s. But again, we can't say for sure.
post #82 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

? We all saw Ken's drunken trees on Vimeo. What QC difference are you talking about?

I've watched my video and Steve's a number of times. No way, no how are these videos displaying the same issue...not even close. Stability of the walking video, degree of jello (and I still see no jello on my son's 15" laptop that clearly show Steve's jello), but regardless, this is not nearly to the same degree.

You too didn't comment on any jello in my walking video until this issue was brought up. But again, it's impossible for me to think that someone could look at those two videos and think they displayed the same issue or the same magnitude of issue.
post #83 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Having had the 700 for a year and now the 900, I would say the Canon OIS is on par with the Panasonics, I just don't see any significant difference in their stability. I do think the Sony is better for walking stability, but as my video showed, in a properly functioning Canon XA10, it's perfectly fine IMO.


Well since I did test out the TM900 walking and in many types of shots I have to say that I prefer the Panasonic OIS and I notice a big difference with motion shots. The Canon you can see it in many videos almost twisting like a light rolling left and right and I never saw that with the Panny when I was using it. I can't speak about the TM700 but IMO the Canon OIS is inferior to the Panasonic.
But we take different types of video so the point is moot.
post #84 of 194
Steve, I did walking video tests in both the 700 & XA10, and I see little if any difference in how the two cams handle that kind of motion. Motion beyond regular walking speed I haven't tested.

For pans and that kind of shooting, again I see no real difference. They're both very good (in properly functioning units).
post #85 of 194
I shot video today walking with the Hague Mini Motion cam. I used the following I.S. settings....OFF, STANDARD, and DYNAMIC.

I didn't notice any jell-o or abberations..so I guess I am keeping this camera. I guess shaking any camera with CMOS sensors can cause ill effects. I watched a video yesterday of a pro cameraman following a pro player into Sanford Stadium (UGA) and I saw wiggle when the camera shook.

So....I appreciate all of the help from forum members here. I definately saw the wiggle in my videos, but according to others, it is the CMOS shake and nothing to be overly concerned with.

All is good.

Haze
post #86 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHAZE View Post

I shot video today walking with the Hague Mini Motion cam. I used the following I.S. settings....OFF, STANDARD, and DYNAMIC.

I didn't notice any jell-o or abberations..so I guess I am keeping this camera. I guess shaking any camera with CMOS sensors can cause ill effects. I watched a video yesterday of a pro cameraman following a pro player into Sanford Stadium (UGA) and I saw wiggle when the camera shook.

So....I appreciate all of the help from forum members here. I definately saw the wiggle in my videos, but according to others, it is the CMOS shake and nothing to be overly concerned with.

All is good.

Haze


I'm glad it's worked out for you.
post #87 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHAZE View Post
I shot video today walking with the Hague Mini Motion cam. I used the following I.S. settings....OFF, STANDARD, and DYNAMIC.

I didn't notice any jell-o or abberations..so I guess I am keeping this camera. I guess shaking any camera with CMOS sensors can cause ill effects. I watched a video yesterday of a pro cameraman following a pro player into Sanford Stadium (UGA) and I saw wiggle when the camera shook.

So....I appreciate all of the help from forum members here. I definately saw the wiggle in my videos, but according to others, it is the CMOS shake and nothing to be overly concerned with.

All is good.

Haze
Hi Haze:

Would it be too much problem to publish your testing with the Hague, somewhere so that we can see it, I think it would illustrate a very important point for all of us.

Luidoly
post #88 of 194
Haze how big of a camera can the mini Hague hold. Was wondering if the xa10 with the hand grip and biggest battery is to heavy. Also do they just pivot from the hand grip of the hague left and right or also front to back. Thinking of making one. I have seen the pipe ones but I want to make it with ball bearing pivot points.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHAZE View Post
I shot video today walking with the Hague Mini Motion cam. I used the following I.S. settings....OFF, STANDARD, and DYNAMIC.

I didn't notice any jell-o or abberations..so I guess I am keeping this camera. I guess shaking any camera with CMOS sensors can cause ill effects. I watched a video yesterday of a pro cameraman following a pro player into Sanford Stadium (UGA) and I saw wiggle when the camera shook.

So....I appreciate all of the help from forum members here. I definately saw the wiggle in my videos, but according to others, it is the CMOS shake and nothing to be overly concerned with.

All is good.

Haze
post #89 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by gso125 View Post
Haze how big of a camera can the mini Hague hold. Was wondering if the xa10 with the hand grip and biggest battery is to heavy. Also do they just pivot from the hand grip of the hague left and right or also front to back. Thinking of making one. I have seen the pipe ones but I want to make it with ball bearing pivot points.
Review of the mini Hague. by ericjut from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post13545618


Just received my new Hague MMC stabilizer (http://cameragrip.co.uk/acatalog/info_263.html) and want you give you my first feelings regarding using it with the SR11:

First, the shopping experience was amazing. I ordered it on Sunday and it was lying on my porch tonight, which means that it did UK -> US West Coast in 48 hours. That's pretty amazing. With shipping, the total was $154, which makes it about $30 cheaper than the MonoSteady, and more than five times cheaper than the Merlin.

Balancing calibration took me about 10 minutes. For the SR11 with the stock battery, I used 4 of the large washers (I have 4 other large and 2 smaller ones left). The camcorder is suprisingly well balanced with the LCD opened, barely needing a couple of degrees to the left on the weight ajustments. I was surprised how exact I had to be on the position of the camcorder on the MMC to get it just right. Just a 1/16th of an inch adjustment made my camcorder flop forward or backward.

As for using it? Overall, I'm pleased with my purchase and it will be a useful tool for me to take better more interesting footage.

What I like:
- Simple and sturdy. I don't feel it's going to break easily nor feeling bad about scratching it (like I would a Merlin).
- Can use either hand to hold the stabilizer. I'm a left-hander and I'll finally be able to use my left hand to hold the camcorder.
- Can still use the camcorder normally via the strap while the stabilizer is connected.
- Almost all vibrations and wobbling introduced by normally walking with a camcorder are stabilized, with very little practice.
- Enables to take interesting angles that would be hard otherwise.

What I didn't like:
- Bulky. Can't make it very compact (the MonoSteady collapses, but not this one)
- A fast movement angles the camcorder.
- Performing nice pans will take some serious practice.
- Using the camcorder's controls while using the stabilizer becomes nearly impossible without jerking the unit. Goodbye zoom control. Also, having a good all-auto mode becomes critical when using a stabilizer.

I can't wait for my next outing to give the MMC a serious spin. But so far, I enjoy it already.
post #90 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed lynn View Post
What I didn't like:
- Bulky. Can't make it very compact (the MonoSteady collapses, but not this one)
- A fast movement angles the camcorder.
- Performing nice pans will take some serious practice.
- Using the camcorder's controls while using the stabilizer becomes nearly impossible without jerking the unit. Goodbye zoom control. Also, having a good all-auto mode becomes critical when using a stabilizer.

I can't wait for my next outing to give the MMC a serious spin. But so far, I enjoy it already.
You can use the wireless remote control to easily zoom and start and stop recording.

The XA10 would work fine on the Hague. I actually bought it for my Canon 60D but with my big lenses, it was too heavy. I am only using 5 of the counterbalance weights, and there are 3 more that you could use with XA10. I would EMAIL them to be sure, but the handle and the battery shouldn't be a problem. I am using the MEDIUM Canon battery and I have no issues with IT or the STOCK battery.

It DOES take some practice...but for $122 on EBAY..you really can't beat it.

I will post up the videos tomorrow. (I SUCK with this thing) but you can see there is NO Jello.
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