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Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 26

post #751 of 1589
7/21/11 at 9:21am
You can either solder the wires directly to the spades of the driver(if you have spades), or you can solder female spade terminals to the wires and slip them over the speaker's male terminals and use heatshrink to protect the joint. Then drill a small hole, poke the wires through and attach a female speakon to the speakerwire and place in the hole. Attach a male speakon and you're done.





Female Speakon: http://www.fullcompass.com/product/275173.html

$2.53 ea

Male Speakon: http://www.fullcompass.com/product/294103.html

$3.72 ea
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post #752 of 1589
7/21/11 at 9:36am
I do not have a solder, nor do I really want to buy one. I would imagine I would want to use a "crimp-on" type of connector.
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post #753 of 1589
7/21/11 at 9:42am
BTW, I ran thru some movies last night and in my room these put out some of the best bass I have felt. I like the FLH better than Tapped but in all fairness once you dial in the each it becomes very similar. The difference is ease of setup and price.
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post #754 of 1589
7/21/11 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW, I ran thru some movies last night and in my room these put out some of the best bass I have felt. I like the FLH better than Tapped but in all fairness once you dial in the each it becomes very similar. The difference is ease of setup and price.

I cant wait to hear my four

Though I am using a different driver than you (Reference HF) and my room is MUCH bigger.

Note: I just purchased the speakons.
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post #755 of 1589
7/22/11 at 5:40pm
hey guys, i was looking around at drivers and came across one that appears to work reasonably well in the f20. it is the jbl gto 1514d. the model isn't a perfect comparo with the f20 as i'm using an older version of hornresp that doesn't have par expansion. there is 1-2 hz lost in extension relative to the buyout driver. ignore the difference in sensitivity, which arises from this driver's lower re. i'm looking at a street price of $108 for the driver and it looks like some places have it for $120 shipped, which is in keeping with the low cost spirit of the f20. not quite as good as the original buyout driver, but it appears to be an option. good news for anyone who missed out and still wants in.



driver:
http://www.jbl.com/EN-US/Products/Pa...x?PID=GTO1514D

t/s:
http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/...GTO1514DTD.pdf
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post #756 of 1589
7/23/11 at 7:49am
Just wanted to say I finally had some time today and I made the professional mic lilmike posted in an older thread. I've also got the radioshack 2055 spl meter. Now I've got to figure out REW. Good news is I have an HTPC right there so no need for a laptop or anything. Also I've rearranged my temporary theater for the time being. This was a quick picture before I aligned the projector to the new size. The JBL 8330's work better than what I had so until I can do either Econowave SRs or some DR200s for LCR this should work fine (even though they are surrounds they seem to work ok). Also I need to paint the subs flat black when I get a chance
LL
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post #757 of 1589
7/23/11 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper
Just wanted to say I finally had some time today and I made the professional mic lilmike posted in an older thread. I've also got the radioshack 2055 spl meter. Now I've got to figure out REW. Good news is I have an HTPC right there so no need for a laptop or anything. Also I've rearranged my temporary theater for the time being. This was a quick picture before I aligned the projector to the new size. The JBL 8330's work better than what I had so until I can do either Econowave SRs or some DR200s for LCR this should work fine (even though they are surrounds they seem to work ok). Also I need to paint the subs flat black when I get a chance
Nice setup. Also waitimg to hear what MK thinks of the DRs....

JSS
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post #758 of 1589
7/23/11 at 7:44pm
ok so I'm into the EQ process finally. Do I need to individually EQ the dual subs in REW or do I eq them together before importing the file into the minidsp?

First is left sub, second is right sub, last is both subs. I'm trying to learn as I go but I'm new to this and just wondering what exactly I should be doing next. I'm going to read back through the thread to see if it's spelled out and then go through the rew and minidsp guides. Just thought I'd ask here though

P.S. my room appears to have some sound issues .

I found this http://www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew so I'm going to give that a shot. I guess I'll individually add the subs and see what happens
LL
LL
LL
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post #759 of 1589
7/25/11 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

ok so I'm into the EQ process finally. Do I need to individually EQ the dual subs in REW or do I eq them together before importing the file into the minidsp?

First is left sub, second is right sub, last is both subs. I'm trying to learn as I go but I'm new to this and just wondering what exactly I should be doing next. I'm going to read back through the thread to see if it's spelled out and then go through the rew and minidsp guides. Just thought I'd ask here though

P.S. my room appears to have some sound issues .

I found this http://www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew so I'm going to give that a shot. I guess I'll individually add the subs and see what happens


That response isnt too terrible actually, you are getting some good gain down low, bringing up the middle shouldnt be too hard for the dSP. BTW your two f-20's are in the EXACT orientation of how I just moved mine this past weekend!! Lil mike mentioned that possibly the mouths in the corners should help to smooth the response so dont fall in love quite yet with that orientation.

I plan on removing all EQ, and running sweeps how they are, with the mouths in the corners facing the seating area, then in the corners facing the wall. Should none of these yield the type of result I am looking for, then its back to the rear wall with one of them

where are you measuring that response from btw, listening position or 1m or what? Also, the benefit of the Mini is it can EQ each sub individually so do that, then tweak additionally with them together.
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post #760 of 1589
7/25/11 at 9:03am
I'm 8-9 feet away from the mouths of the subs at primary listening position. I originally set them up with the mouths facing out (never tested) but I thought it would radiate better with them facing in for my room. I only have front and rear walls so nothing to shape the sound back in. It looked like with the way the mouth has an angle too it, i would get better sound with them turned "in"

I ended up setting up the eq for each speaker individually as referenced in that link I posted above. One question though is how much boost or cut I should apply for each frequency before it is a problem. I have a trough around 60hz that would take a boost of about 13db to fix. Other than that the highest boost I applied was 8db to tighten things up. Cuts were made in the 16hz range and 22hz by auto eqing in REW. I'll take some more readings when I get things dialed in
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post #761 of 1589
7/25/11 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

I'm 8-9 feet away from the mouths of the subs at primary listening position. I originally set them up with the mouths facing out (never tested) but I thought it would radiate better with them facing in for my room. I only have front and rear walls so nothing to shape the sound back in. It looked like with the way the mouth has an angle too it, i would get better sound with them turned "in"

I ended up setting up the eq for each speaker individually as referenced in that link I posted above. One question though is how much boost or cut I should apply for each frequency before it is a problem. I have a trough around 60hz that would take a boost of about 13db to fix. Other than that the highest boost I applied was 8db to tighten things up. Cuts were made in the 16hz range and 22hz by auto eqing in REW. I'll take some more readings when I get things dialed in

I have always fixed big nulls in the upper frequencies or near XO's with phase adjustments. Have you tried that?

BTW, I ran WOTW at reference levels and the subs calibrated to 75db's(flat) and hit 122 db's 4 meters away many times. It was the best WOTW experience to date and I can't explain why.
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post #762 of 1589
7/25/11 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have always fixed big nulls in the upper frequencies or near XO's with phase adjustments. Have you tried that?

BTW, I ran WOTW at reference levels and the subs calibrated to 75db's(flat) and hit 122 db's 4 meters away many times. It was the best WOTW experience to date and I can't explain why.

I don't have problems building speakers but am new to the calibration side. I'll see what I can find out through research of phase adjustment.

I watched WOTW a month or so ago with the subs not calibrated and I was worried it would shake the walls down. I run mine a little less hot though as the spl meter only went up to about 110. Have you watched the new Tron Legacy movie? The LFE and just sound in general in that movie is impressive.
Another fun test for them is the newer Hulk movie specficially the scene of hulk at Harvard and the sound cannons. That rippling wave effect is a favorite of mine. It seems like Iron Man 2 is fun as well. The scene where he jumps out of the airplane about 5 to 6 min into the movie stands out with the rocket boots kicking the subs into gear
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post #763 of 1589
7/25/11 at 10:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

I'm 8-9 feet away from the mouths of the subs at primary listening position. I originally set them up with the mouths facing out (never tested) but I thought it would radiate better with them facing in for my room. I only have front and rear walls so nothing to shape the sound back in. It looked like with the way the mouth has an angle too it, i would get better sound with them turned "in"

I ended up setting up the eq for each speaker individually as referenced in that link I posted above. One question though is how much boost or cut I should apply for each frequency before it is a problem. I have a trough around 60hz that would take a boost of about 13db to fix. Other than that the highest boost I applied was 8db to tighten things up. Cuts were made in the 16hz range and 22hz by auto eqing in REW. I'll take some more readings when I get things dialed in

Boosting 60 Hz by 13 dB is a recipe for a thermal disaster with this cabinet. 60 Hz is an excursion minima - the cone is not moving much, so it can not cool itself. You will fry the voice coil.

3 dB of boost doubles the power, 10 dB of boost means 10X the power, so 13 dB of boost is a power increase of 20X. In other words, 1 watt = 20 watts after boost, so 225 watts = 4500 watts. That much boost is a really bad idea. More often than not, your amp can not possibly deliver that amount of power, it will simply clip. In the rare cases where the amp could deliver it, the driver can not possibly take that level of power.

I try to limit boosting to 3 dB or less, I prefer to use cuts to flatten things out when needed. I work with placement, phase, and crossover frequencies first.
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post #764 of 1589
7/25/11 at 10:27am
Whew, good thing I didn't physically change anything in the minidsp. I was just playing with stuff in REW's EQ section and it's predictions. I'll see what crossover frequencies and phase change will do in addition to some cuts. Can I adjust phase in REW and export it to the minidsp or is that accomplished through delay settings (or maybe even changing polarity of the sub)?
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post #765 of 1589
7/25/11 at 3:14pm
I've cut all the panels, finished my bevels, and am currently machining the baffle and cutting the access hole. Yay!

I have a newbie question that may come off as dumb, but here it goes: Why are we installing the hurricane nuts on the horn side and not the chamber side of the baffle? When it comes to my previous knowledge of nuts and bolts, the nut is always on the back side of the wood.
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post #766 of 1589
7/25/11 at 3:29pm
The driver mounts from inside the chamber. Otherwise you'd have to install it before assembly of the box.
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post #767 of 1589
7/25/11 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

The driver mounts from inside the chamber. Otherwise you'd have to install it before assembly of the box.

Oh, that's right! Now it makes perfect sense. I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks you!
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post #768 of 1589
7/25/11 at 6:23pm
Just wanted to say thank you to Lilmike for designing this sub. I just finished putting these to together over the last three days. Super simple to build. Tomorrow I move out my sonosub and replace it with these two. I still have two more MFW's if I decide I need more.


LL
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post #769 of 1589
7/26/11 at 12:26am
Another awesome set of F20's. NICE
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post #770 of 1589
7/26/11 at 6:33am
Big Jim likes his so much he's hired security!
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post #771 of 1589
7/26/11 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJim_inFLA View Post

Just wanted to say thank you to Lilmike for designing this sub. I just finished putting these to together over the last three days. Super simple to build. Tomorrow I move out my sonosub and replace it with these two. I still have two more MFW's if I decide I need more.


Awesome!!! All 3 look great. I bet the middle one has higher spl's above 200hz
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post #772 of 1589
7/26/11 at 8:48am
Is that a garage or a hospital? I envy you guys that can keep your mess cleaned up!
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post #773 of 1589
7/26/11 at 9:35am
Nice to see someone else putting some blood into their projects (I'm sure it's paint but in my work area there is always some dried blood heh)
LL
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post #774 of 1589
7/26/11 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

Nice to see someone else putting some blood into their projects (I'm sure it's paint but in my work area there is always some dried blood heh)

You are about the 5th or 6th person to say that, although I think the others were hinting that I spilled some other person's blood in my garage. I wonder what that says about me?


On a lighter note, they sound great! I gave up a few Hz of extension over the sono, but gained much SPL and an effortless sound to the bass. The meter says its louder, but it doesn't sound louder, if that makes any sense. It certainly feels louder. All this on less than half the power I was pumping into the other sub. I still have to play with placement some. I have a deep null around 43Hz that I didn't have with the sono, I'm hoping I can eliminate that by moving them around a bit.
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post #775 of 1589
7/28/11 at 3:58pm
I currently have some jbl2226, ae td15x, and a couple of 13av.2s. Are any if those potential f20 candidates?
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post #776 of 1589
7/28/11 at 5:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I currently have some jbl2226, ae td15x, and a couple of 13av.2s. Are any if those potential f20 candidates?

Got specs for them so I don't have to dig em all up? I don't think the 13av2 works, have not run the others.

I'm actively looking. Dayton DVC and Ref HF work fine. I'm pretty sure one of the AE drivers works well too - just not sure which one.

The JBL 1514 GTO works OK, but it wants a larger chamber The JBL W15GTi works OK too, but the W15GTi is not exactly a budget choice.

Basically - a 15" driver with 15 mm of xmax, Vas around 200 L, and a Qes between .25 and .45 seems to work OK. The higher Qes drivers tend to want a larger rear chamber though - maybe a wider cabinet would work well for these.

I'm willing to model candidates as I have time to, just provide the parameters for the drivers. The model is attached to the first post of this thread. I guess I need to start a known drivers list there too.
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post #777 of 1589
7/28/11 at 5:57pm
Qes .31 and 14mm xmax on the td 15x but vas is 467.
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post #778 of 1589
7/28/11 at 6:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Qes .31 and 14mm xmax on the td 15x but vas is 467.

Might still work ok. Got full Thiele Small parameters?
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post #779 of 1589
7/28/11 at 6:43pm
Hey the Av15x looks ok to me and so does the Tempest x. Another one that looks ok is the JBL w15gti. The lmsr15 looks not quite as good as the others but perhaps doable IMHO. None of those is exactly budget though.

Anybody looked at the Kicker stuff? Might be something worthwhile there.
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post #780 of 1589
7/28/11 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Might still work ok. Got full Thiele Small parameters?

Fs: 23.2.0Hz
Qms:3.82
Vas: 467L
Cms: .45mm/N
Mms: 105g
Rms: 4kg/s
Xmax: 14mm
Sd: 855
Qes: .31
Re: 5.6ohm
Le: .3mH
Z: 8ohm
Bl: 16.7Tm
Pe(cont): 500W
Qts: .28
1W SPL: 94.8dB
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