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Digital to Analog Audio Conversion

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Digital to Analog Audio Conversion
Interview with Paul McGowan

Why is it advantageous to use a separate D to A converter?

The most obvious advantage is sound quality. This is really a question about separates vs. all-in-one solutions; a subject near and dear to my heart over the last 38 years. Separates are almost always superior to integrated units because the designers can focus all the hardware and software resources on executing one task perfectly. If we take the example of a receiver, integrated, or multi-use product, the internal D to A converter (DAC) in these units shares a common power supply, has rarely been optimized for high-end performance and lives in a very noisy environment not particularly conducive to high performance.

A separate and dedicated DAC, on the other hand, has all the attention of the design team lavished upon it with but one single goal in mind: performance. Properly designed, a separate DAC like the PerfectWave series from PS Audio has separate isolated power supplies, fully discrete class A analog circuitry, low noise well shielded environment and so on. Rarely are these types of features possible in a multi-task piece of kit like a receiver because there's simply neither the physical space nor the budget to accommodate that.

Read the complete article at HomeToys.com
post #2 of 17
Why convert the digital audio signal to analog?
Since video is no longer converted to analog, why should audio?
Thanks!
post #3 of 17
Video is converted to analog before it hits your eyes.
post #4 of 17
what if our eyes could see digital
post #5 of 17
I always hated that part in the Matrix... "the code is far too advanced for any super-duper-futuristic computer to process, but if you kinda squint your eyes at the screen a bit, you can make it out." (in reference to the digital code on the screen)

A glaring moment of stupidity in an otherwise great movie.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Why convert the digital audio signal to analog?
Since video is no longer converted to analog, why should audio?
Thanks!

Audio is also always converted to analog before it gets to your amplifier and than speakers. It's just a matter of where it is done. If you have only an AVR and are just using the digital inputs, the AVR's internal DAC's are rendering the analog signal. If you think about it, sound is an analog waveform. Analog is audio's natural state, not digital. I think this is the reason the LP is seeing a revival.
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

I always hated that part in the Matrix... "the code is far too advanced for any super-duper-futuristic computer to process, but if you kinda squint your eyes at the screen a bit, you can make it out." (in reference to the digital code on the screen)

A glaring moment of stupidity in an otherwise great movie.

He was not being serious...he then pointed at symbols and said they were hot chicks...
post #8 of 17
Wouldn't it be best if audio would be sent with a losless digitally codec to active speakers which each had a high quality dac ? that way there wouldn't be any heat issues in the amp and since i think were in a state where receivers get so much new features every year it would provide cheaper receivers ?
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Audio is also always converted to analog before it gets to your amplifier and than speakers. It's just a matter of where it is done.

Can you restate this statement for added clarity?
Thanks!
post #10 of 17
Eg. Your DVD player can read the digital audio off the disk, convert it to analog out the white red cables. Or you can connect via optical to your reciever, and have the reciever convert to analog. In both cases, your reciever takes the analog audio and amplifies it before it is sent to your speakers.
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by roodkopje View Post

Wouldn't it be best if audio would be sent with a losless digitally codec to active speakers which each had a high quality dac ? that way there wouldn't be any heat issues in the amp and since i think were in a state where receivers get so much new features every year it would provide cheaper receivers ?

In that case each speaker would need its own DAC and amplifier (and electrical source)


Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

Audio is also always converted to analog before it gets to your amplifier and than speakers. It's just a matter of where it is done. If you have only an AVR and are just using the digital inputs, the AVR's internal DAC's are rendering the analog signal. If you think about it, sound is an analog waveform. Analog is audio's natural state, not digital. I think this is the reason the LP is seeing a revival.


It is perfectly reasonable for PCM to have a high-enough sample rate that the two should be indistinguishable to the human ear given good conversion.
A continuous analog waveform can be produced (interpolated) from a digital source quite easily. What differentiates is how crisply the converter and speakers react to rapidly changing analog output and the "completeness" of what analog waves can be precisely represented (rather than interpolated) in a digital stream.
I'd contend LP's are making a comeback mostly because of snobbery... though there are legitimate uses for analog sources too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Can you restate this statement for added clarity?
Thanks!

You don't gain volume by "amplifying" a digital signal of ones and zeros.
You "hear" real vibrations caused by some continuous waveform (even if it had some theoretical "spike" shape like the dirac delta). When you listen to music you're not hearing a series of beeps corresponding to the digital source.... though even if you were they'd still be represented by analog waveforms.
EDIT: Oh, maybe you were making fun of his typos :P
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKaram View Post
In that case each speaker would need its own DAC and amplifier (and electrical source)

You don't gain volume by "amplifying" a digital signal of ones and zeros.
You "hear" real vibrations caused by some continuous waveform (even if it had some theoretical "spike" shape like the dirac delta). When you listen to music you're not hearing a series of beeps corresponding to the digital source.... though even if you were they'd still be represented by analog waveforms.
EDIT: Oh, maybe you were making fun of his typos :P
Thanks, I enjoy reading the matrix and tinfoil reply's.

The big secret is that is there is no longer a need to have a traditional line-level D/A converter.

The new method converts the native PCM digital stream into a Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) digital stream. It is only converted to analog in the class-D amplifier output stage.

Several companies are selling products with these true ALL-digital amplifiers including Texas Instruments, Samsung/Pulsus, Bose and NAD. The best buy is the Samsung HW-C700 revciever with HDMI 1.4 and 7.1 channels @ 120watts. The MSRP is $399!

The PS Audio DAC's are nice and recommended for all analog stereo music system.

For those with HDMI, its best to fight fire with fire. Or digital with ALL digital. The elimination of legacy analog processing with this new ALL digital method also reduces weight, size and increases the power efficiency. Its a dream come true for those who want higher performance at less cost and carbon footprint.
Peace!
post #13 of 17
Fiber optics to the speaker... the next big thing?! Displays are pretty much all digital now. Why not audio? There would be no issues with distance, interference, etc. on the path to the speaker and would allow people to have lots of options once it got there (external or internal DAC's and amplifiers right next to the speakers, instead of sending analog over long distances).
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by roodkopje View Post
Wouldn't it be best if audio would be sent with a losless digitally codec to active speakers which each had a high quality dac ? that way there wouldn't be any heat issues in the amp and since i think were in a state where receivers get so much new features every year it would provide cheaper receivers ?
Yep. Some excellent speakers follow this design methodology. Some even include digital crossovers, for instance, these two: Genelec 8260a and Meridian DSP 8000.

The next logical step is for digital/dsp active systems is to integrate the digital amplifiers into such a system and eliminate DAC chips entirely. Digital straight to the transducer.
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorr View Post
Fiber optics to the speaker... the next big thing?! Displays are pretty much all digital now. Why not audio? There would be no issues with distance, interference, etc. on the path to the speaker and would allow people to have lots of options once it got there (external or internal DAC's and amplifiers right next to the speakers, instead of sending analog over long distances).
Remember the digital video and audio data are encrypted with HDCP. For one display this is no issue, but HDMI can't send data to eight speakers.
The fiber optic cable would beak any ground loops though. That is nice.

However the latest class D digital amplifiers* are so efficient there is no reason why eight or more high-power amplifiers cannot be put into one lightweight receiver. Which is exactly what Samsung has done.

Speakers wire really largely immune from allowing noise to enter the system, as hardly any noise voltage can be generated since the speaker impedance is so low. Further any such noise enters the system after the final amplification. No worries mate!

* It is well known that Samsung is extremely guarded about their technology. So the true digital class-D information out on the web is really outdated. It was valid five years ago but not today. This is part of the ongoing trend of the shift in high technology to Asia.
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post
Remember the digital video and audio data are encrypted with HDCP. For one display this is no issue, but HDMI can't send data to eight speakers.
The fiber optic cable would beak any ground loops though. That is nice.
Yes, but S/PDIF transports are not HDCP encrypted. Even using S/PDIF to each speaker would allow a 24/192 signal. In order to not have to introduce another standard, this could be used to send a mono signal. I would suggest replacing coax and toslink connectors with fiber connectors used by network equipment such as SC. Of course they usually come in pairs, so you could either have a backup cable at each speaker or tear the cables apart to get two from each cable pair.
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by roodkopje View Post

Wouldn't it be best if audio would be sent with a losless digitally codec to active speakers which each had a high quality dac ? that way there wouldn't be any heat issues in the amp and since i think were in a state where receivers get so much new features every year it would provide cheaper receivers ?

There are speakers made that do this by Genelec and JBL. But they are for use in professional environments. They take in an AES signal which is almost identical to SPDIF, in fact is compatible with it. The power amps in the speakers are still class B analog but I'm sure we will see some class D amps being used soon too.

BTW, a class D amplifier is not exactly a true digital amplifier. It's in that gray between analog and digital electronics.
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