Amps worth the $$$

I am pretty sure neither of those amps (Bryston and SimAudio) are Class D - I think they are Class AB. Whether an amp is worth a given price is all a matter of opinion and your pocketbook. Having owned over a dozen amps it is MO is there is a point of diminishing returns based on an individual's personal preferences. If you are looking for a terrific (IMO) 5 ch amp at a very good price I highly recommend the Theta Digital Intrepid available for $1,500 (originally $4,000) at Audiogon from an authorized reseller, Classic Audio Parts. These are new old stock and come with the full three year warranty. An outstanding amp from a well known high end company at a great price. If that is too much, I have read mostly good reviews about Emotiva amps; they are much cheaper but made in Asia. The Theta Intrepids are made in the USA.

Another popular choice is Outlaw audio. They sell internet direct.

The price of some amps seems reasonable when you consider their parts and construction. And some companies like Bryston have a really great warranty.

Were I to spend money right now, on amps, I think I would look at the Crown XLS 1500. It's light, it's powerful, and it's fairly reasonably priced. Three two channel XLS 1500's would be $1200 or so.

QSC also has some lightweight, powerful and affordable amps.

What about their ATI amps?

http://classicaudioparts.com/store/a...ed-bstock.html

The AT2005 is fully balanced, double the wattage(200W) and $1755.

ATI amps have a good reputation.

If you are ok with heavier class AB amps, definitely look at outlaw. You have one day, if you are interested in the good sale price on the 7125

(Yes it's "only" 125 watts, but indications are that it's a very good performing 125 watt amplifier, and there's a good chance it's all the power you would need.)

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7125.html

My bottom line is that very expensive (five figure price-tag) amplifiers are silly, at a point you've gotten good enough and anything more is senseless, if you disagree then vote with your dollar and be happy.

I would also look at Emotiva and B&K in this price range, Rotel if you want Class D.

The world of audiophiles is full of mostly men, young and old, all seeking perfection to deliver the one thing that we all have in common; the love for music (primarily, imo). Manufacturers of audio equipment, no different than other industries, feed off of our dreams and are able to sell something for say, $5000 that is only "worth" $500...if it is packaged and promoted properly (looks & hype). This plays out every day, and even many who know better... get drawn in, just like the newcomers. Buying the thickest gauge speaker wire is a very basic, yet effective example; leave nothing to chance, even though you've already learned your ears can't tell the difference between 12g and say, 16g. This same phenomena continues into the equipment lines.....

Yes, there are very real differences between amps, but the trick is figuring out what it is. Someone above already listed some very nice, powerful and reasonably priced amps (they can even be found much cheaper). But the problem is....that they don't make for great pictures . You'd be surprised how many people buy speakers based on their looks...and not their actual performance. And yes, many think that mega bucks will assure them of audio excellence...when the same level of excellence could have been achieved at a much lower cost. Double blind listening tests bear this out every day. You'll have to blaze your own trail, though . Good luck.

Just to chime in on the ATI franchise, I needed an amp or amps to drive my stereo rig. The designer of the $$$$$$ speakers (I paid less, thankfully) recommended bi-amping (passive, not active, due to the charge-coupled networks), so I thought about the Theta Intrepid. I actually stopped by Classic Audio Parts and was guided away from the Theta as not meeting my particular needs power-wise. It was a beautiful thing, though. It would look so cool!

Nonetheless, while there I got to see a lot and discuss numerous options. They had Outlaw amps, and JBL Synthesis amps, and B&K amps, and a couple others I probably shouldn't mention, all made by ATI, plus of course the house brand.

I walked out with two ATI 2003 amps, two channels for each speaker plus the third channel for a passive sub.

Heavy! Needed a truss. Plain! Definitely do not call attention to themselves, but not fugly, either. Huge! Build quality, assembly, and size are high quality big. They can be fitted out to seven channels each, so there's a lot of room in that case.

And they drive the speakers like never before, with ease, command, and agility.

It was less than $3k for the pair, and with a seven year warranty, I'm set for stereo power for a while.

I've already got ATI-built JBL Synthesis® amps in my two-year-old HT, so I know they're basically bullet proof. They also are conservatively rated, so it's real power with lots of reserve.

Im a big fan of ATI amps these days.


One thing you should be aware of is that when spending $$ on audio you should be spending >= 80% of your budget on speakers and room treatments. Nothing else in audio (Amps, AVRs, cables, wire, etc) will remotely come close to what improvements you can gain in REAL SQ through speaker upgrades and room design and room treatments.

Meaning if your speakers are only $2K, I think its silly to buy a $5K amp. Instead sell the $2K speakers buy $5K speakers, $1K in room treatments and a $1K amp.

The $5K speaker/ $1K room treatments / $1K amp will be a far superior setup then $2K speakers/ $5K amp.

If you want a fancy name brand just buy a used one off audiogon for a fraction of the new price. Same performance just less wasted $$$. Drop the idea of local dealers, you are just paying huge margins for a service that can be found on forums like this one.

What if the 16g cable was handling 2 ohms at 50 feet?

penngray has given the truth if that is what your looking for. There is a lot of data that supports his points.

When penngray speaks--- listen!!

IMO Bryston makes great stuff. They typically perform somewhere in the amazing range on the test bench. That said, however, I suspect that (a) much of the time the differences between Bryston and another similarly-rated brand are not audible and (2) if you want lower distortion at power X, get a higher powered version of a cheaper amp line and you'll stay more in that amp's linear range at significantly less expense.

I'd love to have a stack of Brystons, but that is not in my cards at this point in time. I don't fret over whatever I am (or imagine I might be) missing.

I don't know that I agree with the speaker/amp spending thing 100% (1/3 for the amp, 2/3 for the speakers.)

I think you need to generate different scenarios. Maybe, for example, you are looking at two receivers. One has network audio, the other does not. You might give up network audio for better speakers. But how much better are the speakers? Maybe the cheaper speakers that allow the receiver with network audio into your budget are fine for you. You have to do some research and take your best guess.

You should not assume speakers are better just because they are more expensive. In some cases, more expensive speakers may be worse - lower efficiency, harder to drive, or maybe they have better bass, but you have a subwoofer making that of less importance.

One thing I think is true for many people. Your speakers are going to last a lot longer than your electronics. So spending $1000 on a receiver for a few more features you may not often use, or a few more watts may be a worse economic decision, than saving some money on a cheaper receiver and getting a better pair of speakers - and by better, I mean speakers that will better suite your needs/wants over the long term.

Speaker setups can get very pricey. And without detailed information, it's not clear whether you are buying improved sound or not. I don't trust showroom listening much. I don't trust user reviews due to the high subjectivity. Some seasoned pros are probably pretty good at finding flaws, but even they are likely not immune to biases. If you could get the speakers into your home for a listen, that would likely be best. But I think you are always guessing a bit. For that reason, I caution against equating price with performance when you can't confirm it.

I agree with one thing. If you are buying a speaker setup with fairly low power handling, it does not make much sense to buy a powerful amp. For example, I don't think I would buy an Energy Classic system, then power it with an Emotiva XPA-5...that seems like overkill to me.

Just don't feel like you have to be a slave to anyone elses concept of how to buy an AV setup.

I think if you are budget minded there are certain thumb rules such as the one penngray presents to help you optimize your system. Back before the multichannel movement it was a common rule of thumb that you should spend half of you budget on speakers. After all, the speakers and your room will have the biggest sonic impact on the overall sound of your system, at least beyond the source material itself. With multichannel home theater systems I would think 70 to 80% of the budget going to speakers and room treatments is about right. Depending on your overall budget I think it would get shifted up or down but still a good starting point. I have always been amazed to see a system with a 5 speakers that have a total retail value of 2K hooked up to a 3K amp and 2K processor. I can't help to think how much better the system would sound if they had put their money in the speakers and the room. The electronics now days has such a low point of dimensioning returns.

lmao...that sort of talk is left for experts like Kal

I think the most important part of what I posted is go search on audiogon for some amazing deals.

NICE Setup

FWIW, I own $4000 amps and I own $500 amps. I have tried to measure and listen for absolute differences and I have yet to find that amp that actually sounds better to me during playback. Amps can definitely have different noise floors. My ATI has the best noise floor and its not my most expensive amp. My Bel Canto and my Sunfire amps are nice but My outlaw amps are just as good.

One thing is for sure if there is a different (some people believe there is) you are going to believe in that difference a lot easier if you are spending bigger $$$. Is that a bad thing?? Honestly, Nope.

Heck, From what you have posted if I was you I would take a serious hard look at this amp.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....BST-5-channels

Its more then 1/2 its MSRP, it still has its warranty and its a bryston

Other then that the posted (post #4) ATI amp is the best value amp I have found out there. I simply love them with my higher sensitivity horn designs. Its the first amp in 5 years that I said that subjective WOW!!

Yup. I own one of those.

In amps, how important are slew rates? Looking at various specs on different popular amps, the slew rates vary fairly greatly. Parasound, for example usually lists a slew rate of >100V/uS, while ATI lists all of their amps at 50V/uS. I've seen some as low as 20V/uS. Some speaker cables, especially some expensive ones and DIY braided designs, have fairly high capacitance which might cause problems with amps. Recently I've read somewhere that higher slew rated amps are more prone to oscillations when using high capacitance speaker cables. Is that correct?

Well, percentages are nice when estimating expenditures, but they are merely guides, not ironclad principles.

With my new ATI amps, the whole two-channel system comes almost exactly to $50k. It breaks down like this:

amps 6%
pre 1.3%
source 1.8%
20 Amp circuit 0.3%
treatments 0.5%
balanced cables, etc. 0.1%
speakers 90%

In our more costly HT, room treatments accounted for a full 5% of the cost while speakers were closer to 50%.

A lot is room dependent where treatments are concerned. A few bucks might work in one room and a few thousand in another.

Getting back more specifically to amps, I really need amplifiers that can do certain things for me, and the ATIs have all that, plus more. I want to go full balanced instead of single ended, and ATI handles that, plus the "true balance" differential design architecture of the amp really fits the bill for me. I want lots or headroom, and with three 200W channels per amp being fed off two gigantic toroidal transformers, there's no bottom to this well--or at least I can't find it.

About that 200W/channel--it's not really true. Are they liars? Well, no, my actual measurements find them to be running about 210-220+W/channel, all channels driven from full range 20Hz to 20kHz noise. So it's not your typical, lame 200W/channel with one channel driven only at 1kHz.

A nice surprise is the soft start circuitry. I have a single 20 Amp circuit dedicated to this system, and with the amps connected via DC triggers to the pre, a push of the on button brings the whole system up in an orderly fashion, without pops, thumps, thrown breakers, or house wide brown outs. I can take the Niles IPC6 sequencer right out of the system.

All in all, I got everything I needed in an excellent pair of amps at a great price, made locally in CA, USA. Plus, I didn't pay extra for what I didn't need: fancy billet Aluminum front, big prestige brand name, expensive marketing campaign, and huge overhead. Instead, when looking at them up close, I can see the quality construction, the attention to detail, the careful engineering, and the thoughtful, useful feature set.

These are well worth the $$$$ as the OP first asked the question.

May I ask what speakers you use? $45k speakers!!

yea, that's a good buy on that amplifier... bryston certainly has it's positives, that's for sure... if nothing else, you are pretty much guaranteed it WILL out do it's rated specs (the birthsheet on my 9b-st shows better than 150wpc on every channel), it will do it for hours on end if necessary, and if you should happen to break it, the warratee service is pretty much unmatched (it's actually 20 years, not the 10 stated in the ad)...

i cooked a module in my 9b-st... i called... no "what did you do to make it happen"? no "are you sure it doesn't work?"... nope, none of that... "send it in, we'll fix it"... 3 weeks later, it was back and installed... can't beat that...

There's a graph which shows how much slew rate you need on Rodd Eliott's site, in one of his articles (the one on why amps can sound different.)

It's base on frequency and power (voltage.) The more voltage on the output, the more you have to be able to slew. The higher the frequency, the faster you have to slew.

I would guess that, if you were trying to reproduce perfect square waves, you would want as high of a value as possible. I don't know that you would ever have to reproduce perfect square waves, because I suspect no DACs can produce them.

You live too close to me for me to feel comfortable telling you.



Okay, JBL K2 S9900, plus two JBL S2S passive subs operating below 40 Hz. I thought I'd given up on "high end" stereo a long time ago in favor of multichannel sound until I heard these.

I auditioned a ton of amps, up to seven times the cost of the ATIs. Almost all of them looked fantastic by comparison, but they didn't sound better to my aging ears, and often they sounded worse in some annoying way.

Haha, like I'd be able to even budge those huge beasts. I was sore for a good day and a half just trying to get my news subs into my house. But then again they were 200 lbs. each. Have to thank mjaudio for them.

Did Classic Audio Parts stock any Parasound amps? Did you get a chance to listen to any Parasounds? I heard they sound pretty good and many can be modded to sound even better. I've been looking into a few of their models. It's been back and forth between Parasound and ATI.

No, all their stock is ATI manufactured.

I do have a buddy who deals in Parasound, Krell, Bryston, and Pass Labs, and his partner is a big ATI fan. (He's driving JBL Everest II 66000s with a pair of 3002 ATIs.) All four of those brands were excellent. The Pass was the prettiest IMO.

The Parasound Halo A21 was very nice at a good price, but not the deal the ATIs were, and it was just two channels. In fact AT'Is ability to have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 channels was part of its attraction, and down the road I could add a channel or two if I wanted to without needing to buy a whole new amp.

We all agreed the ATI was the real deal, just not as pretty or with the same legendary cachet. Since I could get two ATI 2003 amps at such a great price locally, it really was no contest for my purposes.