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Official Mitsubishi hc4000 ONLY Thread - Page 56

post #1651 of 2810
Or in other words, is there anyway to make the offset to this projector 10 inches instead of the 22 inches it looks like i will have ( 18 inches plus 4 inch mount)
post #1652 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by John P View Post

How high is your ceiling?

HC4000 real needs at least an 8' ceiling.

It is preferable to avoid using keystone.

I think it all depends if you have multiple rows of seating, and if the rear rows are raised or not.

My ceiling is 92" and my 16:9 image is about 140" (I do a 2.35 screen of 10' or so wide). Perfect height in my opinion (about 16" off the ground).

When someone sits in a recliner behind the sofa, they can see the entire screen, although we'd have to scootch down or our heads would be in the way. But if the rear row is on a platform, or the screen is not that big (resulting in lesser offset), it might be entirely workable or even ideal for you.
post #1653 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasmussen79 View Post

All right, now I'm starting to understand. My ceiling is only 90 inches tall. The offset on this projector is 18 inches. My poorly framed question is -- Will the keystone allow me to rasie the image on my wall. It sounds like the answer is no. Instead, I would have to tilt the projector up ( I want my picture to go up 10 inches closer to the ceiling). Then I would use the keystone function that will make my picture more clear after the tilted mount.

Is that how the keystone works?

The offset is 18" and you need another 7.5" from the center of the lens to ceiling. 25.5" from ceiling to top of screen. Screen would be 54" tall placing bottom of screen 10.5" from the floor.

The only way to get true 1 to 1 pixel mapping is with no keystoning.

Tipping the projector then using keystone is going reduce the number pixels displayed accross the screen to some value less than 1980. Using keystone will not make your picture more clear it would be less clear. Keystone would just correct the shape of the picture to a rectangle.

The HC4000 is great projector but has specific mounting requirements.

Look for another projector that requires less offset. Epson's are popular.
post #1654 of 2810
Thread Starter 
Sort of, but the keystone doesn't make it more clear, you got the tilting of the mount part correct.

When you tilt a projector image, the image becomes angular, hence it becomes trapezoidal, but then when you apply the keystone, the keystone corrects the distorted angle.

Here is the twist, the picture was actually slightly sharper even in the distorted angle form, the keystoning corrects one problem in exchange to add another.

That said, you can get away with a little keystoning (I'd say 2-4 clicks, 5-10 for the much less picky people), and you'll be absolutely ok.
post #1655 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by John P View Post

Tipping the projector then using keystone is going reduce the number pixels displayed accross the screen to some value less than 1980. Using keystone will not make your picture more clear it would be less clear. Keystone would just correct the shape of the picture to a rectangle.

The HC4000 is great projector but has specific mounting requirements.

Look for another projector that requires less offset. Epson's are popular.

The irony is that the HC4000 with 1-2 clicks of keystone (about what he would need), would still be sharper than the equivalent priced Epson with no keystone.

If you walked into a room with a HC4000 side by side with an Epson, and the HC4000 was sharper even though it had some keystone in it, would you care?
post #1656 of 2810
Thread Starter 
Yah, and the Mits has a different type of sharpness, when the keystone distorts the sharpness, it is fairly even, the light is still tight, the distortion is just a sort of tight bolded effect.

With LCD, you get a different type of distortion from the get-go, a more fuzzy text effect where the colors aren't lined up.
Now people run from keystone because they hear a loss of 1:1 pixel resolution, and I do understand that to a degree as a loss in resolution sounds pretty scary. You don't want keystone if you can avoid it, but it certainly doesn't make a huge difference in small increments.

The issue is the slight loss in resolution is actually often less noticeable than large convergence errors, because the Mits distortion from keystone is very even and predictable. That said, I'm not sure all keystone correction is as good as the Mits, it sounds like from some peoples' experiences, the Mits is better than some other projectors at this, not sure why, but I have some theories (as I always do...).

The more time I spend in forums, the less I want to go on about other people's projector choices, but on this I have to say the 8350 isn't a bad projector, but it can't match the hc4000 in terms of POP and even contrast in most scenes. The sharpness is just a third-added bonus.

Some people will still have to go with the Epson for the lens shift, so don't fret, most of you wouldn't think the difference was that huge, and it still produces a nice image.
post #1657 of 2810
Just want to say thank you to everyone in this thread (specially coderguy for your guide). I finally pulled the trigger on this projector today (from forum sponsor) and will be getting it on Friday. I too need to raise the picture about 10"-12" so I don't have to switch out my current furniture setup. This projector is replacing my plasma panasonic 65VT25 in my loft. I hope the pictures is just as nice.
post #1658 of 2810
Thanks to all of you for helping me out. I want to buy around thanksgiving, and you all have given me some good things to think about.
post #1659 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

The irony is that the HC4000 with 1-2 clicks of keystone (about what he would need), would still be sharper than the equivalent priced Epson with no keystone.

If you walked into a room with a HC4000 side by side with an Epson, and the HC4000 was sharper even though it had some keystone in it, would you care?

How many inches equals a click? For example if I need to move the image 6 inches lower by tilting, how many clicks would it take to straighten the image?
post #1660 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

How many inches equals a click? For example if I need to move the image 6 inches lower by tilting, how many clicks would it take to straighten the image?

I really don't know 'cos it's directly related to what ever screen/image size is being projected, and I think you'd need to find a mathematician to figure that formula out.

I can say that the larger the screen size, less keystone will be needed for a 6" correction vs. a smaller screen....
post #1661 of 2810
Thread Starter 
Small Plug:
For people not aware of what I'm working on, this new PJ calculator is coming out VERY VERY soon, if I don't get the floor mounting done pretty quickly, I may release before.

Sceenshot here, this is what I've been doing nearly every minute of my free time the past 4 weeks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21087420

I can do the keystone formula, I just need to find some basis that exists for it. I believe they are proprietary to every manufacturer. I have every other possible formula already in my program except H-SHIFT and Keystone, those will occur later on down the road once I investigate more. I think people will really get a kick out of the V-SHIFT and mounting pole auto-shifting sizes and positions as ceiling and screen size shifts into an auto-restriction zone.

I actually am having more fun writing this program, then almost any other program I've ever written, should have written it years ago, just can't wait to get this last part done and the updated release out there...
post #1662 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I can do the keystone formula, I just need to find some basis that exists for it. I believe they are proprietary to every manufacturer.

Yeah, that's gonna be the issue. You're gonna need to actually measure the keystone clicks of the actual PJ to figure the formula for a calculator....
post #1663 of 2810
Thread Starter 
Yah, luckily the program is already setup to handle fields of proprietary data. Each projector has about 20 mathematical fields for it, and I can add more easily. So I just need to do some hunting once this is done.
post #1664 of 2810
well that's impressive

Though it being AVS, I think most here are allergic to keystone, so it may not be worth it, 'cept for the HC4000.
post #1665 of 2810
Thread Starter 
True, the best part of the calculator is the automatic mounting range adjustments and true lumens to throw calculations in every major 4-5 modes of a projector.

The hardest formula was definitely the range adjustments. I think people will find it useful that when you adjust the screen size, there are 20+ numbers that change simultaneously in real-time, all 10 lumens calculations, and every mounting calculation, minimum ceiling height, the vertical lens shift range, and the offsets, screen position markers, and even the throw range, etc...

I don't ever want to program that formula in again, I'll tell you that right now...
post #1666 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS67T View Post

Just want to say thank you to everyone in this thread (specially coderguy for your guide). I finally pulled the trigger on this projector today (from forum sponsor) and will be getting it on Friday. I too need to raise the picture about 10"-12" so I don't have to switch out my current furniture setup. This projector is replacing my plasma panasonic 65VT25 in my loft. I hope the pictures is just as nice.

I tilt mine since I wanted to raise about 10" or so from the floor since I didn't have the ceiling height...you'll be fine, in fact you will be blown away with the picture...congrats and come back and let us hear your thoughts....I would never trade my tilted DLP for any LCD projector...

But thats just me...it just does so many other things so well.
post #1667 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

well that's impressive

Though it being AVS, I think most here are allergic to keystone, so it may not be worth it, 'cept for the HC4000.

Yeah I agree, I mean I get the 1:1 mapping, and I knew going into it that I would have to tilt to get the size that I wanted, so started to read about it and you have folks going on about the end of the world to tilt, etc...lol...then I came across some postings in the HC3800 thread where guys were saying fooey and had keystone and thought the picture looked great, I remember reading one guy said he had 6 or 7 clicks and thought the picture looked fine...then I talked to one of the projector salesman and he said the same thing...go ahead tilt and use the keystone...for most video sources, most people would/could not tell the difference vs 1:1 mapping....not with video sources maybe with text on the fringes...but in my experience, since I have keystone applied the picture looks great...I have about 2 clicks....
post #1668 of 2810
Using 2 clicks of keystone on my HC4000 and it looks beautiful, can't tell at all.
post #1669 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS67T View Post

Just want to say thank you to everyone in this thread (specially coderguy for your guide). I finally pulled the trigger on this projector today (from forum sponsor) and will be getting it on Friday. I too need to raise the picture about 10"-12" so I don't have to switch out my current furniture setup. This projector is replacing my plasma panasonic 65VT25 in my loft. I hope the pictures is just as nice.

Congrats on your projector! I presume you decided to go FP because of a bigger image size. Tell us about your loft. Do you have good light control?

I've never owned a flat screen TV, but have seen many at friends and at stores. The image between a flat screen and a front projector is different. Personally, I prefer FP, but it won't look as brilliant as plasma. Light control will be essential. I think you really need to be in a darkened room to see FP at its best.

Once you've seen an image on a big screen, though, even a 60" flat screen will seem puny. I have a 108" screen and when friends see it for the first time, they are bowled over.
post #1670 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougMac View Post

Congrats on your projector! I presume you decided to go FP because of a bigger image size. Tell us about your loft. Do you have good light control?

I've never owned a flat screen TV, but have seen many at friends and at stores. The image between a flat screen and a front projector is different. Personally, I prefer FP, but it won't look as brilliant as plasma. Light control will be essential. I think you really need to be in a darkened room to see FP at its best.

Once you've seen an image on a big screen, though, even a 60" flat screen will seem puny. I have a 108" screen and when friends see it for the first time, they are bowled over.

+1...and most don't want to leave


and going home to the tiny flat screen just never looks the same...once you go with a projector not many can go back...I know I can't...
post #1671 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougMac View Post

Congrats on your projector! I presume you decided to go FP because of a bigger image size. Tell us about your loft. Do you have good light control?

I've never owned a flat screen TV, but have seen many at friends and at stores. The image between a flat screen and a front projector is different. Personally, I prefer FP, but it won't look as brilliant as plasma. Light control will be essential. I think you really need to be in a darkened room to see FP at its best.

Once you've seen an image on a big screen, though, even a 60" flat screen will seem puny. I have a 108" screen and when friends see it for the first time, they are bowled over.

Yes, I got the projector for the theater experience. I blame this on AVSForum when they have the article "how to build your own hometheater" two months ago. My loft has a sliding door to go to backyard, 8' ceiling, and projector will only be about 11' away from the screen. This will be mostly for movie (20% sports) and we only watch movie at night. So, technically, it will be totally dark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopt View Post

I tilt mine since I wanted to raise about 10" or so from the floor since I didn't have the ceiling height...you'll be fine, in fact you will be blown away with the picture...congrats and come back and let us hear your thoughts....I would never trade my tilted DLP for any LCD projector...

But thats just me...it just does so many other things so well.

How do you tilt your screen? I ordered elite fixed frame 100" screen. Will definitely post a comment when I set it all up.

On a side note, I don't normally view movie in the total darkness. We have the back lighting on our current plasma. Will the projector in a totally dark room be too bright? Thanks guys.
post #1672 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS67T View Post

How do you tilt your screen? I ordered elite fixed frame 100" screen. Will definitely post a comment when I set it all up.

On a side note, I don't normally view movie in the total darkness. We have the back lighting on our current plasma. Will the projector in a totally dark room be too bright? Thanks guys.

I believe he was talking about tilting the projector, not the screen.

And no, it will not be too bright. Keep it in low lamp mode and it will still be plenty bright and extend the lamp's life. This projector is meant for a dark room.
post #1673 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS67T View Post

On a side note, I don't normally view movie in the total darkness. We have the back lighting on our current plasma. Will the projector in a totally dark room be too bright? Thanks guys.

We don't view in total darkness either. Our dedicated home theater has can lights an sconces on the front wall on either side of the screen. I installed a remote dimmer (that can be controlled from my Harmony One remote). We just lowered the dimmer to a comfortable level for viewing, then saved that setting as the favorite. One click on the remote and the lights dim to the perfect viewing level!

Add a smidge of ambient light and you'll be good to go.

I think you'll love the experience. We watched a little of "Rango" the other night and it is just amazing using that projector and seeing a large image. Let us know what you think!
post #1674 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by jagojago View Post

I believe he was talking about tilting the projector, not the screen.

Actually, since he has a fixed frame, he can tilt both (PJ + screen) to keep them squared/aligned and not have to use any keystone. i.e., tilt PJ up to move image up, move fixed screen up the wall to match, then tilt the top of the screen out from the wall until square. No keystone.
post #1675 of 2810
One way I could work around my low ceiling is the 2.35:1 picture. Did coderguy or someone else post recently that if you throw a 2.35 picture using "CIH", one can adjust the picture on the 16:9 screen, so the picture goes to the top of the 16:9 screen and the black bars go to the bottom of the 16:9 screen. Or does the CIH only allow you to center the picture on the 16:9 screen. (I would want the capability to toggle back and forth between a 16:9 picture and 2.35) I don't want a real 2.35 inch screen because the cheapest one I could find was $800 and I don't want to pay the same for the screen as I do my projector.
post #1676 of 2810
Thread Starter 
You can shift a movie in 2.35 format up or down within the picture within the 16:9 area when projecting onto a 16:9 screen. In other words, you can get rid of 1 of the 2 black bars if watching 2.35 content on a 16:9 and this can be done from your couch without getting up and doing ANY physical adjusting of the projector's position or zoom. However, this didn't do much for me, I'd rather use a different method personally.

Since there is no MOTORIZED zoom method or LENS shift, in order to get 2.35 with no bars on a 16:9 screen, and get back to 16:9 later without bars as well, you would have to buy a motorized screen.

Also, not sure I follow the question exactly, sounds like you want to use a 16:9 screen, but the beginning of your question you said you wanted a 2:35 to help with the ceiling.

You can get a blu-ray player or an external video processor that allows more mode transitions, but these are digital tricks and all have concessions such as losing part of the image. You can use distorted stretch modes that come with the Mits, but then the picture looks too tall or too wide (you know like looking at yourself in a funny curved mirror).
post #1677 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It's funny because the Mits basically has AUTOMATED masking capabilities, if only the programmers had added a tiny memory slot for MEMORIZING the masking position instead of making it a manual adjustment on the remote, weird I know.

I don't think I follow what you consider 'masking'.

Yes, the Mits does have a feature in which you can crop the edges in increasing increments, but this isn't really masking per se. You would not get real black masking like you get in the black masking of a screen, you would just get grey bars, the same level of grey bars you would get above/below a 2.35 movie on a 16:9 screen, and I don't consider that 'masking'.

Assuming the PJ is calibrated properly (bright/contrast), the masking you're talking about would be the same level of black/grey bars you get when playing 2.35 movie on a 16:9 screen.
post #1678 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Edited:

Wait a second, now I THINK I remember, I had to use the masking to crop after physically moving the projector to get it to lineup, yes some overspill, but not easily seen on a dark wall. Maybe that is how I remember it.

Heck guys, you are the ones that still own this projector, help me out here

.

Yeah, the masking/crop feature just turns off the DLP mirrors (well, not exactly 'off', but in the 'off' position). It's no different than what the DLP mirrors are doing in the black bar area of a 2.35 film.
post #1679 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think the rest of my post is correct, you can get no black bars doing manual zooming and projector re-positioning if you really want to go through the trouble, but it requires the manually zoom + adjustable shelf trick.

I really think this method is way too much trouble than it's worth. It could never be precise enough to not have to refocus every time.

Plus, even so, I don't know how you would get a 'perfect 2.35 with no bars on a 16:9 screen'??? It's just not possible. I think you thought of this when you had mistaken Mits's 'masking' for something that it is not.
post #1680 of 2810
Thread Starter 
You overspill them on a black wall?
I can barely see them in a dark room.
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