Official Mitsubishi hc4000 ONLY Thread - Page 8

Depends what your expectations are. I find lackluster BRIGHT scenes much worse than slightly brighter dark scenes.

I don't know if washed out is the right phrase for it, I think a better phrase for it is unable to go dark enough just for the black part of the image during really dark scenes.

You're not going to find anything with both, the 8700ub I guess has both somewhat, but you'll lose a lot more in bright scene pop than you'll gain in black levels, at least to me. The Benq w6000 maybe, but many of us have doubts to its bright scene capabilities given that its so IRIS dependant to get the blacks darker.

I have a plasma here (still at friend's house), and I don't see anything special about watching great blacks other than for a handful of movies. Quite honestly, I didn't find Harry Potter much better on a Plasma, maybe a little (it was on cable last night, watched it on the Plasma just to get an idea).

Space scenes is about all you'll really lose, most black levels aren't as critical as space scenes are.

If you want to spend a ton of money, the infocus sp8602 would be another option.

It's because all of the reviews focus too much on black levels.
That's what makes it so hard to find the best projector going by reviews.

After watching a Plasma on and off all week, I actually find the Plasma's bright scene POP to be more of an advantage to projectors than the Plasma's dark scene POP. Yes, the Plasma goes way way darker in dark scenes of course, but it also has better color than projectors in bright scenes and a Plasma has a VERY sharp picture probably even sharper than a DLP. The funny thing is, once I go back home and lose the ability to watch the 50" Plasma, I'll miss the Plasmas bright scenes more than its dark scenes, haha. It definitely has some very VIVID color better than any projector, unfortunately. I still find dark scenes less important than bright scenes, no matter what display I'm watching.

Still though, unless I can find a 106" PLasma for under $5000, don't think I'll even give it a second thought, lol.
If it's any consulation for us projector owners though, the Plasma does look a bit more VIDEOISH, but overall I'll still take the PQ of the Plasma over any projector except for its size/cost ratio (just being honest here). I know people have said projectors look like Plasmas, well in some scenes they get close, but not quite. That is a bit of an exagerration. If I didn't have a plasma all week in a dark room to watch, I probably would have never known. Sure if you compare your projector in your dark room to the Plasma at the store, well then yah, the projector wins. Sorry, but in dark rooms Plasma still is supreme in the PQ dept, but who wants to watch a 50" or 60" image, not me.

I've been going through the same thing about black levels, but in reality for me it always comes back to spending $2k+ vs just buying two different projectors. Personally for me, I'd just buy another Sanyo z4000 and a Mits hc4000 way before grabbing an Epson 8700ub. However, between owning both those projectors and owning an Infocus sp8602, I'd probably take the Infocus, but it's hard to say without me having owned the Infocus (which is still a definite possibility soon as I can grab a deal). Although the Sanyo's are harder to get as cheap now as I originally had paid.

It would have been real interesting to have 5 different projectors at my house at the same time, a JVC RS40, an Infocus sp8602, one of the Benqs, a Mits hc4000, and a Sanyo z4000. Not going to happen though, lol.

That would be the ultimate test that would end any uncertainty for me.

Here is another cool combo, a Benq w1100 for TV and a Sanyo z4000 for movies, that would also be far better than an Epson 8700ub, still costs more, but it is better than owning just a single Epson (for so many reasons).

Shoot, for that matter you could own a re-certified Sharp z15000 and a Mits hc4000 for almost the identical cost of a single Epson 8700ub. Now think about this, if the Epson breaks after warranty, you're screwed, but with two projectors you'll not feel such a loss if one breaks. A two projector setup has lots of advantages, not to mention the ability to disperse wear and tear across the two units as needed.

Now that I think about it, I'd rather have a cheap 720p Plasma and a Mits hc4000 rather an Epson 8700ub, so few scenarios where I want an Epson 8700ub. No wonder Epson owners despise me

You can have both those cheaper than the Epson.

I'm not sure the Mits hc4000 can be beaten at bright scene POP for under $3000 other than the Infocus probably beats it slightly at skin tones (don't know for sure though).

Believe me when I say spending $5000+ is no guarantee you'll match the Mits in bright scenes, sure you'll obliterate it in dark scenes at that price, but for bright scenes it might take a Marantz, or a $10,000 Samsung DLP to really beat it severly, although I'm fairly confident the Infocus will at least match it. The Benq w1200 or w1100 should also get close and it could potentially beat it in bright scenes, but we don't know yet for sure.

So far even a Sony vw70 MSRP'n at $8000 can't beat the Mits in bright scenes (once you count sharpness and POP as a factor). The one JVC RS20 I saw certainly can't touch it in bright scenes either. A JVC RS40, maybe, but I have doubts. A Sanyo z4000, an Epson 8700ub, an Epson 8350, a Panny 4000, Viewsonic Pro 8100, Optoma HD20, well... not for bright scenes anyhow.

The LCOS projectors and some LCD do have a tiny bit more vivid color than the Mits (sometimes a bit more realistic look), but if you average out bright scenes overall, the Mits will still win out simply on a cleaner and sharper look with more depth and cleaner motion.

So if you really want to watch Harry Potter or some movie like Dark City, you'll be better off just grabbing a 720p plasma for those and keeping the Mits hc4000 for everything else, not that those movies don't look fine on the Mits (they do), just if you want maximum POP in dark scenes you won't really get it on any projector unless you're willing to sacrifice BRIGHT POP and pay tons of money to make the sacrifice. I could be wrong, as I haven't seen EVERY projector, but I'm getting sick of trying personally.

I understand, I'm just saying to get the darker blacks you'll make sacrifices in other areas (mainly your wallet). I tried hard to get darker blacks on a projector without sacrificing POP in bright scenes.

I can tell you straight up don't buy this PJ if your main concern is dark blacks, but that said, it might be good enough to satisfy.
I'm all for this projector, but its not the best one for black level fanatics.

A screen doesn't change the richness of black level contrast, it only lowers the starting and ending tonal ranges of the contrast spectrum.
Improving the room with treatments does more for black levels than a screen ever will. The issue with projectors that have lower native contrast for black levels has to do with the way the gamma is and the way the contrast works at lower brightness scenes, its not just a matter of getting the blacks darker (I wish it were). You can screw with the GAMMA curve and get better blacks at the cost of shadow detail if you wish (in the Mits menu there is a setting that does this automatically called SETUP). If you try to improve the black levels with gray screens, you'll lose white level peaks, and vice versa, you'll be fighting a circular battle overall. You can create the same effect as a screen by simply lowering the contrast and brightness controls of the projector in a fully darkened room, unless the PJ is just too bright overall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...creen+contrast

I only post that article because I figure its better than people keep repeating it.