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Marantz projector problems and US purchase? - Page 3  

post #61 of 163
QUOTE]We have only had 6 calls internally about the flicker issue (which, by the way, is the only real issue to surface-- by real I mean more than 1 or 2).[/quote]

Dan, what about the loss of sync on VGA? I suffer from it, despite the optimized powerstrip settings as well as others, I believe reading from posts. Thanks.
post #62 of 163
Well. Dan. That was quite a condescending and hateful message. Personal attacks... even on my nick. Not unexpected though, given my past conversations with you.

Quote:
Dan Miller wrote: I explain to him that there is no clock adjustment, and that the service menu won't do him any good. He calls me a liar because he KNOWS that there is an adjustment, and we get off the phone. Now at this point, its just kind of humorous, so I let it go. I have no idea yet that he isn't even an authorized dealer, or any of the other unethical things going on here.
Never called you a "liar". I said this is "implausible". Please delineate for us what "unethical things" are going on here. Or is this just a smear?

Quote:
The next day, our Service Manager conferences me in on a call with him (I was just listening; I didn't say anything), where he admits to buying it sideways, so he is told that he wasn't going to get a service manual either. The service manuals are for authorized servicers only. Period.
Hm, I didn't even know you were there Dan... Well I paid for the service manual, and you accepted payment. This is a contract, and I do not agree to rescind. I do not agree to a refund. You must provide this complete service manual to me, or I will get it through the courts.

Quote:
Now he's pissed. So he writes an email to Japan, which gets bounced back to us. Now really Mr. Cook, do you think by going over people's heads, you are going to accomplish anything other than making yourself look like a fool and guaranteeing that you won't EVER get help?
See their attitude people?


I think it's very nice Dan that you can get near pixel-perfection with a PC, but my customer wants his DVD calibrated. So the only possibility is adjusting the PJ. BTW, nasty move Dan, in admonishing my customer to find a "legitimate" dealer next time.

Bottom line is, we as bona fide customers bought these PJs with real money, through legitimate, legal channels, and Marantz doesn't like the fact that we arbitraged to save >50%. See, the Japanese pay far less than the rest of the world for Marantz and Sharp.

So Marantz is trying to deny these warranty claims. And treat us like we bought them from a 'fence' out of the back of a van, in a back alley. Treat us like suspected criminals.

Further, everyone should make note of how they are handling these 80 hour burst bulbs. EVERYONE is out of luck, including U.S. purchasers, because Marantz will not step up to the plate on a clear manufacturing defect.

For those who are not aware, my nick refers to a practice on Slashdot, a 'geeks forum'. Thanks for the ad hominum attack Dan. And yes, I did apply to be a dealer, under my holding company's name.
post #63 of 163
Dan...you are definitely going to need a flame suit!

I remember when the Japan purchase threads started a few months ago. At that time I hadn't seen the PJ. Folks were salivating over the possiblity of getting it for 3-4k less than US price. A big chunk of change for sure. Then there was the revelation of a global warranty policy. I always felt that the intent of this was to cover people that move from one country to another. I never thought that it was intended to cover people that circumvent the dealer network in a given country. I fully agree that its not worded well.

As far as dealers in the USA, who says that there shouldn't be competition? Just like we are free to buy a unit from Japan, we are also free to buy from any USA dealer we choose. There is no rule that says we have to go to the nearest one, and this does not affect the warranty. I admitt that finding a good dealer can be a pain and any dealer that "brokers" it for you without giving you protection is worthless IMO. In the long run it just pays to develop a good relationship with one or two dealers for all your home entertainment needs. The sentiment in this forum runs counter to that because of the DIY attitude and many people "rely" and the AVS forum for purchasing decisions. To me this is crazy, but I am in the minority on this as a recent poll about buying projectors sight unseen revealed that a large percentage of folks on this forum to exactly that.

I would also like to say that when Dan says he is very accessable it rings true. I have sent him a number of e-mails to which he has responded quickly (except for my last one!) and we had a discussion on the phone at some point. I think it speaks for the company when representatives actually talk to customers.
post #64 of 163
Dan, I was the first on the board to report the "flickering" problem, back many months ago. I sent you a private e-mail concerning this problem and you flatly responded that you did not have that problem nor knew of any reports of others with a flickering problem. Now I read in your post that in fact your unit does flicker and there are others, internal users, that have also complained about this problem.
Dan, say good-bye to your crediblity. Concerning the global warranty, if I have a service issue with my projector, I will take it in to a Marantz service center and if refused service I guess a court of law can determine what your company's website means by "global" warranty and what it will cover or not cover.
post #65 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Bunny
QUOTE]

Dan, what about the loss of sync on VGA? I suffer from it, despite the optimized powerstrip settings as well as others, I believe reading from posts. Thanks.
Bunny,
I am using the posted PowerStrip settings without a problem as far as loosing sync goes. However, I still feels that for DVD playback my interlaced player is superior to TT. I just did another test last night. Currently I don't think the HTPC is up to it. Now that could change if a new video card comes out so I don't think that selling the HTPC is on my agenda. Have you done any more tests?

John Moschella
post #66 of 163
By buying from Kwon or Price Japan, they may be acting as "Agents", but to believe that this is anything other than semantics is truly naive. You bought a projector on the grey market, through shady channels who bypass the system. Did you ever hear the phrase "if something seems to good to be true, it probably is..."? There will always be loopholes to any system.

Quote:
nasty move Dan, in admonishing my customer to find a "legitimate" dealer next time
Another case of seeing what you want to see. I said,

Quote:
I promise I won't slam you to him, and I will tell him the information that he needs to know.
This means exactly that. I will tell him that with the powerstrip settings in question, this thing looks beautiful. It's not perfect, but nothing ever is.

Our warranty policy says anyone who buys a product locally gets service. Over the internet from Japan is not local. I don't know what seems so hard about that, except for those trying to legitimize and justify going around the system.
post #67 of 163
MichaelZ,

When you reported it to me, mine wasn't doing it, and there were no other reports. This was the truth then. You were an early adopter. Mine has since started doing it, slightly. I believe I reported this elsewhere on here. And where did I say anything about internal users? I said we have had calls. And that I am tracking them.
post #68 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaelZ
Dan, I was the first on the board to report the "flickering" problem, back many months ago. I sent you a private e-mail concerning this problem and you flatly responded that you did not have that problem nor knew of any reports of others with a flickering problem. Now I read in your post that in fact your unit does flicker and there are others, internal users, that have also complained about this problem.
Dan, say good-bye to your crediblity. Concerning the global warranty, if I have a service issue with my projector, I will take it in to a Marantz service center and if refused service I guess a court of law can determine what your company's website means by "global" warranty and what it will cover or not cover.

MichaelZ,
I didn't think I had the flickering problem either until I read the posts. Mine is not very objectionable, but it is there. So give the guy the benefit of the doubt. At least confront him privately before questioning his credibility in public. Don't slam someone until you get all the facts.

John Moschella
post #69 of 163
Hello all,
I have stayed off of this forum for the better part of many months due to the exact observations Dan has echoed regarding the mob mentality and the price over service but I want service damnit attitude. I am deeply troubled about this thread because it gives folks out there the completely wrong idea of what is actually happening with the VP-12S1 in the field.
I make no secret that I am a dealer, a Marantz authorized dealer in fact, and the fact that I love this projector.
The VP12S1 is the best projector on the market for the price. Have we had problems with flickering? YES. Have we had any other issues whatsoever with the MANY projectors we have sold and installed for happy customers? NO. Has Marantz with no questions asked returned any projectors with the flickering issue? YOU BET. Has Dan Miller returned my phone calls inquiring about this issue? ABSOLUTELY. Would I trade my experience with this projector, even given the issues we have seen with the lamp? NOT A CHANCE. That said, we are a Marantz authorized dealer and we are treated exactly as Dan has mentioned, with the utmost respect and with the best customer service I can imagine. For an unauthorized dealer to be spouting off about the lack of service is reprehensible to me. The relationship between supplier and integrator is two-way in nature. To expect service without supporting the line is ridiculous.
I simply wish to inject my real-world experience with this projector, garnered through MANY installations in the field and the superb job I believe Marantz is doing, both with offering this projector to us as well as working to solve the ongoing issues with the product.
post #70 of 163
Dan, my apologies, I was assuming your flickering problem had to exist like mine from day one. I obviously assumed too much.
post #71 of 163
So, if I am visiting Japan, buy a Marantz pj from an authorized dealer, use it for 2 months, and then go back to the states, I cannot expect service from a local Marantz dealer? This policy statement seems to clearly state otherwise. Am I missing something here? Is there some sort of officially authorized way to "transfer" the warranty?

quote: To realise our aim of providing excellence in pre and after sales service care, for all our customers, regional service policies have to be in line with the Marantz global commitment. Therefore when a Marantz product is bought locally, the warranty obtained at the time of purchase can be transferred to any country in the world. "
post #72 of 163
When buying from ********** it is a roll of the dice. Many who have purchased this way have stated this by saying prior to their purchase, and I will paraphrase, that I am willing to take a chance because if my projector requires service then I can pay for it and still come out ahead. Most of us who bother to think realize that warranties are issued by manufacturers for products that are sold through channels that are sanctioned by the manufacturer. How can anyone stretch their imagination to think that Marantz would sanction the kind of trading that Kwon is doing, trading that undermines their efforts to have value added resellers, support and a dealer network here in the US. The customer is purchasing these projectors from Kwon, Kwon has no standing as a dealer with Marantz, therefore you as a customer have no standing with Marantz. Those who were not lucky enough to get a perfect unit from Japan should be grateful if they get any service at all.

Lenny Eckian
post #73 of 163
Lenny, I get your point and am in agreement with you and Dan in many ways, but what about my question regarding warranty "transfer" through legitimate foreign dealers?
post #74 of 163
Martin,

The way it was explained to me is that Marantz US will honor the warranty if you can show that you can show that that YOU PERSONALLY bought the projector from an authorized Marantz dealer WHILE IN JAPAN. This means that even buying directly from a Tokyo dealer by mail will not qualify, You have to be able to prove you were actually in Japan, probably by passport stamps.

Personally I'm disappointed that Marantz wasn't clearer on their interpretation of thie worldwide warranty. They have every right to set their terms any way they want that meets legal requirements, but it would be nice if they were clearer. Look at the warnings on the Denon website. They are refusing coverage even on non-authorized sources here in the US.

When I was involved in manufacturing AV equipment our attitude was simply "if we made it, we'll fix it". But seldom are warranty's that generous.

From my standpoint, I'm in the heart of the Silicon Valley and have been in electronics all my life. There are very few things that I can't find someone around here to troubleshoot or repair so I felt very comfortable with my purchase given the savings involved. I'm surprised at the number of folks who have taken similar risks without the safety net of having close by contacts. I'm considering moving to the southeast coast and will probably sell over half my AV gear and cars simply due to the lack of tech support in this area.
post #75 of 163
Martin-
My interpretation of what Maranatz's primary intentions are in regard to a world wide warranty is to cover legitimate customers who actually live in a particular country and then move to another. For example if you were living in Japan, purchased the projector, and then moved they would not want to abandon you as a customer just because you moved. If you were in Japan on business or vacation and bought the product yourself, they may also consider that to meet the conditions of the warranty but I doubt it was their intention to cover under those circumstances.

Lenny Eckian
post #76 of 163
I can fly round trip from Boston to Japan for $980. Not a bad deal since you can back to your hotel room and try it out amd make sure you get a good one before you come home. Would anyone care to join me?

Lenny Eckian
post #77 of 163
Quote:
Did you ever hear the phrase "if something seems to good to be true, it probably is..."?
Dan,

Yes, I have and thats exactly how I feel about the Marantz projector whether US or Japan!

Quote:
I can fly round trip from Boston to Japan for $980. Not a bad deal since you can back to your hotel room and try it out amd make sure you get a good one before you come home. Would anyone care to join me?
Nope, I will buy a US Dwin or Sharp instead.

Thanks,
Mike..yes, I mean Mike damn it!
post #78 of 163
I'm feeling a bit like the devil's advocate here. Dan is very generously trying his best to resolve things here, and is going a lot further out of his way than any rep I have yet encountered on the internet. That said, the exclusion of some buyers seems a bit arbitrary to me. I know of a "highly reputable" Marantz dealer here in NYC who cannot be trusted to treat their customers properly. I have a friend who spent over $150,000 on two stereo systems only to be called a liar when he asked them to honor a trade in agreement they had made for his CD player when the model he originally wanted became available. Well, my friend had the foresight to get the agreement down in writing, and they still did not honor it completely. If they mistreat someone who spends that much cash ( who happens to have a very high integrity level) and is an all around great guy, I wouldn't expect good treatment as a "small" customer purchasing a projector.
If a person with experience does not need a dealer for help with set up, problems etc. but would be happy to take their pj to an authorized service center if defective, what is wrong with buying it from another country where the price is more favorable, by mail or in person? In New York an original sales receipt guarantees your warranty by law. So, if my cousin bought a Marantz projector in my name in any country outside the US, Marantz is still legally required to honor the warranty. I am not an attorney, but that's how it works here to the best of my knowledge.
I do understand the value of a good dealership, especially for the "average" consumer.They can help with decisions, they can demo products, help with set up, follow up with service help, etc., but, I have around 30 years experience with audio, and over 20 years with video. Few dealers can tell me much I don't already know. I have quite a bit of A/V gear and have only needed a dealer say...25% of the time, and when I do, I am happy to pay for their services.
Companies like Panasonic have authorized repair centers who repair their products when shown an original receipt that is still within the warranty's lifetime. Why shouldn't Marantz allow that if I chose to buy one of their products from an authorized dealer outside the US?
post #79 of 163
Martin-
You know in your heart that you are trying to get something for nothing-go around the system-use the letter of the warranty-not the spirit of the warranty which is to protect customers who have an actual residence and then move-and undermine the economy of your own country for your own personal gain. If you feel comfortable with yourself go for it-

Lenny Eckian
post #80 of 163
Thread Starter 
Before I cancelled my Marantz projector order, the only reason I went to a local authorized dealer was because I wanted a valid warranty. If it wasn't for the warranty, I would have preffered to buy the projector from an Internet based retailer -- at a lower price.

Frankly, I don't see the value I get from a local authorized dealer for the thousands of dollars I pay more. I am bringing this up because Dan said that authorized dealers are "people who have dedicated their lives to selling products and service and maintaining relationships and reputations". I think Marantz has done a poor job in selecting authorized dealers.

I live in the Seattle area. I found that most local authorized dealers had little knowledge of projectors in general or of the VP-12S1. Some dealers even encouraged me to buy a different brand. One dealer told me that they had a high number of returns on Marantz projectors because of reliability issues. This was for the earlier Marantz projectors but I am sure the real motivation must have been higher margins on the other brands. One dealer who is also a service center clearly told me that he would refuse to service the Marantz projector unless I bought the projector from him and not from any other local authorized dealer. He wasn't willing to discount the MSRP price (unlike others) and said that he wasn't obligated to honor a valid Marantz warranty. I was shocked to hear this. Is this what you mean by "people who have dedicated their lives to selling products and service and maintaining relationships and reputations".

On the other hand, I have found many Internet based authorized retailers to be knowledgable, helpful, honest, and competitive in pricing (for equipment they are authorized to sell). The Internet is completely changing the retailing landscape. It's ironic that Marantz and some others are trying to protect their dealers v/s consumers who are actually trying to buy their products! You don't need to authorize any Web site out there that has bought a domain name and UPS account -- but you could authorize the more well-known and reputable Internet-based retailers, remove the geographic limits, and help your customers (and sell more in the process).

As things stand right now, the only reason I would have bought this projector from a local authorized dealer was that the warranty wouldn't have been valid otherwise.

Many thx.
post #81 of 163
Leckian, I am actually not interested in buying the Marantz pj at this time, but am looking into their 8300 DVD player, so I am concerned with the company's position in regards to their customers. If our economy is strapped with dealers whose service is underwhelming to say the least, I think that a new model of business is in order. The price of a projector should not be say... four thousand dollars different no matter how they calculate the cost of doing business here. There is such a thing as gouging, and that is all that I think is going on with most dealerships. As far as I can tell for someone like myself who doesn't need a lot of hand holding to buy A/V gear, the dealer does little. I would still be willing to buy through one if their prices were truly competitive and if they did the warranty and maintenance work on a pj instead of simply shipping it out to the manufacturer for me.
I agree with Amrud. I think dealers would be forced to get of their jaded butts and actually SERVICE their customers to stay competitive. Wouldn't that be a surprise, and how American is that idea I might add? I have been on both sides of the fence, being in sales and being a customer and if anyone thinks there isn't a huge amount of corruption in the A/V retail business, then they are really naive. Dan seems to be a straight shooter to me though.
post #82 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Butler

Few dealers can tell me much I don't already know. I have quite a bit of A/V gear and have only needed a dealer say...25% of the time, and when I do, I am happy to pay for their services.

Martin, your missing the point. I know as much as dealers also and quite frankly, I help out my main guy to some extent, its fun. At the same time we give each other ideas. But that is not the point, the point is that when there is an issue, problem, etc. you have someone to go to bat for you. If they don't then they are not good dealers.

amrud,
How many internet retailers will let you demo a product, or send you a demo? Not many.

I have found them to be friendly and knowldegeable also, but they are only good if you know exactly what you want. If there are any QC issues then it can be a real pain.


This thread has shown that the Marantz PJ purchase, or potential purchase, is giving lots of folks anxiety. I have absolutely none because I know I have a good dealer.

John Moschella
post #83 of 163
First, I believe Marantz will get this solved. The Japanese reputation for quality is too highly prized domestically to not get it done. No product is perfect at introduction, but this single -- frankly, relatively minor -- bulb issue will be seem inconsequential a year from now when this will still be one of the best projectors of any kind (digital or CRT) money can buy.

Second, what an asset to have Dan Miller posting and helping here. Too bad asses such as AnonCoward ruin it for all the rest of us.

Third, and most importantly this is a great, great projector. I spent a lot of time lately looking at it, the Sharp and the new VX1000C. It is demonstrably more detailed and yet smoother than the 9000 (which is still hard to beat for the money), while nipping at the heels of the much more expensive VX1000C (which is tops in my book). It may even do a couple of things better than the VX1000C given the superb, integrated Faroudja processing.

I may buy it even with the flicker! It really is that good.
post #84 of 163
Wow, What a mess. So does Sharp have customer service problems as well? I just cancelled my order for the Marantz. :mad:
post #85 of 163
John, even the most reputable dealers can turn out to be scoundrels sometimes. You are fortunate enough to have built up a good relationship with a particular dealer, but as time passes things can change. Case in point: I have been a long standing customer at a music store here in NYC for over 30 years. Three of my long standing friends there have either moved to a different company, or are so far up in management that the in store salesmen don't have a clue as to who I am. Now, I have brought approx. $15,000 in business to them every year and find it trying explaining to some snotty inexperienced new kid on the block why I expect to be treated as a valued customer. I mean I'm in a store to buy something not give out life lessons for free. Did you read my previous post regarding my friend who spent $150,00 at one high end retailer here and was very badly treated? There should be nothing so valuable to a company as a customer, and many stores have forgotten this simple rule, so under the right circumstances an internet dealer can be superior to an "established" dealer. Mainly, my whole point is that a manufacturer should completely stand by what they make, regardless of the circumstances under which it was purchased. This is actually a very smart company policy in the long run.
post #86 of 163
Golden Pheasant,

I'm curious as to what it is that would lead you to cancel an order for a Marantz. Was a ********** order? If it was then I can understand. There is a large risk in purchasing and shipping from overseas especially if you don't have technical help closeby.

But I have seen almost nothing that would suggest those buying domestically have much of a problem. Certainly nothing compared to Sharp. The incedence of problems being mentioned here is a very small % of the Marantz projectors sold.
post #87 of 163
OK, that was an interesting read (5 pages now). I live here in Japan (Tokyo) and I can only agree with those who warn - buyer beware - for those who want to come here and get a cheap deal (or do it via the internet).

I am amazed at the lengths to which Dan has gone to help so far. Well done Dan. Two points come to mind
- I am sure that Dan will be the first to post when Marantz has licked this problem (and you can bet that they would not want a 'quality' problem out in public for too long with the popularity of this projector - the wait here at good retailers like AVAC in Akihabara is still a couple of months!)
- 8100, VP12S1....we cant be far of the next model ?.... you would think that the problem would be a concern for the design team for the next model!

Anyway, my hat is off to Dan for such forthright participation - I am sure it would be a matter of pride for him to be representing the best product possible for Marantz (ie it is probably pissing him off as much or more than everybody else!).

Cheers
Adam
post #88 of 163
I live in Louisville, KY. I'll give you my zipcode 40220. Look on Marantz's website for my "dealers" - call them - let me know what you find :) Tell me about the people who have dedicated their lives to selling products and service and maintaining relationships and reputations":) Stop it! Your killing me:):):)
I will see how this pans out on my unit - if push comes to shove then I will sue if I have to, to make Marantz "honor" (and I use that term loosely) their global warranty. If that fails I am more than willing to have a "smash the Marantz" video on the internet. It should be entertaining for all!
post #89 of 163
Martin-
Every company has the right to set up their marketing plan, policies and warranty program and the only "shoulds" are that they comply with local laws. Your confusion amazes me for this is extremely easy to understand- if you want a warranty in US buy from a US dealer. If you want a Japanese warranty move to Japan. If you don't like the price of the US product don't buy it-buy something else-there are many other companies to buy from. .

Lenny Eckian
post #90 of 163
Martin,

The fact of the matter is that a manufacturer NEEDS dealers. Who else can demonstrate their products? Unfortunately the general public is more and more wanting a "tell me what to buy" review process rather than hearing or viewing for themselves. This can only mean that AV gear is becoming more of a commodity as consumers become less discriminating. I was disappointed in the recent AVS poll where the vast majority of folks purchased their projectors without even seeing it in advance.

When you talk about new channels of distribution you are really talking about buying gear without auditioning it first and with no help. Remember that there have long been factory authorized mail order dealers like Galen Carol who can match expertise with most any B&M dealer. Just look at the back of stereophile to see the dealers who are looking for mail order business. You don't think that Singer et al are just advertising to the NYC market do you?

Many of us have industry contacts or ways to know exactly what we want, but for the vast majority of customers they NEED a good dealer just as much. I'm not saying all dealers are good dealers but not all are bad either. Your friend may have had a trade in issue but I'll bet you that the dealer has 10 times as many instances where someone came in to listen or view something and then bought from a box mover on the internet. Dealers don't routinely rape and pillage on pricing either. I used to find that there wasn't much I couldn't buy at 20 - 25% off. What is unfortunate is that the market is very quickly changing from stereo to a Home Theater market while very few dealers have added video knowledge.

The problems with pricing on some gear like the new Marantz projector is simply that dealers are selling every unit they can get and most have 2 month waiting lists. And even so they can be purchased for 20% off. Remember that the Sim2 is 15k and the Runco is 19k. Only the Sharp is cheaper and with a scaler it's more expensive too.

When I was involved in manufacturing AV accessories our warranty was "we made it, we'll fix it". However very few manufacturers have similar policies. All we can ask is they clearly spell out exactly what it is. Many years ago I had to spend over 1k to repair a problem on a 3 month old tube amp. The manufacturer would not cover the cost as I had purchased it used, even though the warranty said nothing at all to limit warranty to original buyers only.

Those expecting more reliability of high priced gear are very naive buyers IMO. My experience is that the MOST reliable items are the less expensive items with the high run rates necessary to debug the inevitible bugs that infect even the best products. One of the inevitable downsides to buying more expensive, lower volume gear that pushes the performance envelope is dealing with limited production volumes and less experience in fixing bugs.
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