Totem, Monitor or Ohm

The Arros/Dreamcatchers are nice speakers, they do a lot for their size. However I think the Monitor Audio RX6s are better for HT.

If music is a big interest of yours, esp Jazz, Female vocalists and blues, I would get the Arros. If you are more into rock music and hip-hop, I think MA would be a better setup.

I think the NAD 747 would be a great pairing for the MA RX6s, and for the Arros Id get an Integra or Marantz.

I have a pair of Arros in my bedroom that I use for 2 channel TV/music. If you plan on listening to them at ear shattering levels I wouldn't recommend them. You could, in theory if you set your crossover at 80hz but then you be limiting their performance. Go with the Monitors or Ohms even though the Arro is a better sounding speaker in my opinion.

If you were going to play them really loud for video I would not use them. I play mine pretty loud for music and they work great.

In a smaller room the Arros will do a good job at both movies and music. If you are trying to reach ear splitting SPL levels with HT they aren't gonna do that the way other speakers will. The Arros will play loud and with realism and have good dynamic range. I have not personally heard the Ohm speakers, but I would prefer the Arros over the MAs cause I find the MAs to be bright, and the Arros while a little agressive, are much more neutral to me.

Not really, you're limiting their bass extension, but not their performance... The Arros bass performance, while impressive for their size, isn't impressive at all when compared to similarly priced speakers. If you let a decent sub handle the bass, it's a definite win for the Arros, as you'll not be limiting their performance but enhancing it... Instead of having 5/10 bass, the sub might give you 8/10 bass... A sub won't fix the lack of punch of the Arros at 80-200hz, but it'll definitely improve <80hz... If it doesn't, it's one hell of a crappy sub...


It depends by what you mean by good dynamic range... The Arros have no punch, none whatsoever... You do not feel the music, at all... They also, as mentioned, won't play as loud as other speakers. So I'm not sure in what sense you mean that they have good dynamic range... They can play loud though, that wasn't a problem I had a pair, but I don't listen to music that loud anyway, though they'll play louder if they're crossed over to a sub.

Another thing to consider with the Arros, they're power hungry as hell and you need a good amp to power them. They will work with an average amp, but it won't sound as good with a solid amp. By that, I mean that for example, Totem Sttafs might be fine with 600$ receiver X, and will sound pretty much as good as they can with it, but the Arros won't sound as good on it...

Example. Receiver X, 600$. The Sttafs would sound, in absolute, say 8/10 on it, while the Arros will sound 7/10 on it. Beefy 2ch. amp, 1500$, Sttafs will sound 8.1/10 on it, while arros might sound something like 8.5/10 on it. They're not driven easily, and amps will have a harder time playing them correctly... One thing which is certain, if you go the receiver route, which I don't think is recommended by Totem, make sure it's solid at 4 ohms...

As for Totem vs MA RX or Ohms, haven't heard the Ohms or the MA RX, only the older series (S, Gold, etc..). IMHO, you can do better than the Totems. If you've heard the MA and Totems, you should be in a position to judge for yourself. If you haven't heard the Ohms, not sure why you're considering them... FWIW, I went Totem Arro -> Totem Sttafs -> Ascend 340SE -> Ascend Sierra 1 -> Ascend Sierra 1 NrT

Good luck in your search


++ While I wouldn't go back, they can definitely do the job. I used them for 2ch. music and even for HT, but at normal listening level (not blasted), without a sub, and they did the job

I honestly don't know, I have never tried that combo. Grandarf made a comment about the Arros being power hungry, I drive mine with a Parasound Zamp, at 4ohms thats 60w per channel. Not a lot of power but the Zamp is quite a little beast.

I will agree on one comment Grandarf made (did I say that ), the Sttafs might be more to your liking, if you get a chance to audition them go have a listen. They're a little easier to drive.

why don't bookshelfs work for you?

That looks like a nice little amp! And not that expensive too... Does it drives the Arros to their full potential?

Btw, Phila, in the other thread you mentioned a center being too tall... What are you going to do about the center?

That Sttafs sound very different than the Arros... They sound nothing alike... I had the opportunity to do a very cheap upgrade Arro->Sttafs so went for it, thinking they'd grow on me, but didn't quite happen... In some ways they were superior to the Arros (easier to drive = better detail/resolution than Arros on my electronics), better bass, but they were quite warm sounding which I'm not a huge fan of... Also the FR was always somewhat skewed and like the Arros, no matter how much I played with placement, I could never get a neutral and natural sound out of them... Even with an EQ...!!! Sold them when 600$ speakers replaced them in my primary system and sounded like I was trying to make the Sttafs sound... :\\

Dynaudio also makes smaller floorstanders which are quite good, Excite X32 (6.7 x 36.2 x 10.6"), but err... 3000$.. ouch... I didn't think they were that expensive...

The thing is, imho, around 1000$ is somewhat budget price, you get better value in bookshelf than floorstander... as you've probably found out, there's not that many 1000$ floorstanders out there to begin with, and even fewer which sound very good... imho in bookshelf vs floorstander in that price, it's a tradeoff between quantity & quality. FWIW, at the time, after a lot of speaker auditions, I had chosen the Arros, as a compromise between floorstander/bookshelf... It stands like a floorstander, but its acoustic properties were more like a bookshelf: Bass of a bookshelf (edit: Actually... Arro bass is quite worst than some <1000$ bookshelves...), and overall I thought it sounded better than the <1000$ brick and mortar floorstanders speakers I had demo'd at the time...

If you really want a better Totem speaker than Arro/Sttafs, go Totem Hawk... You can find them for around 1300$ used, and imho, it's like the better properties of both speakers combined in one. Three pairs on audiogon right now...

Why the size restriction? 37 inch... http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....e-72SE-special More serious speakers than Arros... (Real floorstander vs ... Well... A floorstander-like which sounds more like a bookshelf when compared to bookshelves costing significantly less...)

Btw, I loved Dynaudio sound at the time, just used to cost A LOT in Canada at the time... If not, I'd have probably bought Dyns... When you can get 2500$+ speakers for less than 1000$... Kinda changes the equation though.... If only I knew then what I know now...

@ Grandarf

I auditioned the Arros, for a little while, I also heard the Sttafs, the Arros I thought for the size, had good sound, I wasn't expecting what came out of them. I guess, they had more bass then I expected to hear from them.

FWIW, I ended up buying Dynaudios over the Totems.

Which Dyns did you buy? The thing is with the Arros, they can 'wow' you from the amount of bass from those small, puny looking things... But once you're used to the 'wow' factor, and stop being impressed that small speakers have bass, and hear the bass just for the bass, it's not too spectacular bass... Especially compared to other speakers... The 340SEs had quite similar bass to the Sttafs, and the 340SEs are less than 1/2 the price of the Arros and 1/3rd of the Sttafs... Actually better bass than Sttafs which was a bit on the bloated side in comparison... 340SE bass was tighter, less (not) emphasized like Sttafs... More Dynaudio-like (tighter bass) which was a good thing... The Sierra-1's bass is leagues above Arros, not even close... Goes much lower, with much more authority... It's even quite a better than Sttafs or 340SE... And again, it cost what, 2/3rd of the Arros? 1/2 of Sttafs?

@Grandarf

The OP could look into the Dynaudio DM3/7, its a floorstander thats a little bigger then the Excite X32s, they list at $2000

here are some other notable Dyns.... BTW, the audience line is hard to drive from what I understand and really needs a good powerful amp.

I got the X16s. Everything I auditioned in and around the $1500-2000 price range just didn't compare, even towers like B&W CMs and Paradigm Studios, only going up the Dynaudio line did I feel I was getting anything better, but at the time, the Focus 140s were the other one I wanted, but I wanted a power amp with them, and couldn't swing the cost of the amp and 140s. I was not going to buy a cheap Emo amp. I got the Excites because they would work great with my Integra receiver until I can add a Parasound A21 or Naim Nait 5i.

Which Dyns did you end up buying?


How do they sound compared to the Excites though? Last 2 times I heard the audience line, and maybe could have been the DM3 as they somewhat look similar... Can't remember exactly... I was not impressed... At all... And even the Excite bookshelf while I think about it, the smaller one... But could have been the setup too as something sounded definitely wrong, sounded nothing like the X32s but they were different rooms/setups, so my bet was something wrong with that particular setup...

The Excites X32 were quite good, I wouldn't have thought they were 3000$, I'd have guessed 1500-2000$ maybe due to their diminutive size, but a definite step up from the audience line... The C1 was just leagues above though, but also in a different price league... The 72SE uses the Contour drivers so should be a definite step up from regular Audience line, and at 950$...


Always seem to happen... One item is always just a little bit above what we want to spend... Hehe... My auditions before Totems started around 3 or 400$, then it went up to 600, 800, 1200... sigh...


Ugh, yeah... Now that I read about them, it sounds like nothing I heard when hearing the Dynaudios X12 or X16s... Might not even have been the X series actually, that was more than a year ago...


Ah, could have very well been the DMs 2/6 or 2/7, as they look nearly identical to the Excites... The audience also looks almost exactly the same... sigh...

I have heard all the Excite line, and breifly the DM2/6, Ive heard most of the Focus line, most of the Contours and a couple of the Confidence line. Not because I own them, but in all honesty, I haven't heard a bad speaker. The Contour 3.4s are probably my least favorite, they are just so very balanaced and smooth, I find them a touch boring; But they do so much other stuff that they are an excellent speaker, but not my taste. The Dm 2/6 are not as detailed as the Excites. The DM line as a whole is redone over the Audience from all I have heard, read and seen. New Cabinet, little different drivers making them easier to drive with AVRs and new crossovers. The X16s and 32s sound really similar, the output is a little larger on the 32s and theres a touch more bass too. But the 16s can dig pretty deep. In any case I love them.

I heard all sorts of speakers when auditioning, Dali, Amphion, Totem, Dyns, Digms, B&W, Kef, Polk, PSB, Energy, Def tech, Vienna, Canton, Monitor Audio, Klipsch. For me it came down to Totem, Dali and Dyn. Totem, didn't like for HT, Dali was 3rd when it came to music, actually liked amphion more too, so 4th. Dyn just did both HT and music so well, that they were the best I could find for the money.

Given all of that, I would highly recommend that you look at the Dynaudio Excite X12s, theyre a bookshelf, as you can tell from the review that Grandalf posted, its a very good speakers, I liked them, I got the Excite X16s, and the Center channel is 5" tall.

With the L/C/R, the best is to have 3 identical speakers. Ex: 3 bookshelves, or 3 floorstanders... Often it's not accommodating due to the vertical alignment of drivers, so the compromise is centers, with drivers in horizontal alignment. Normally, a center will have the same drivers as your mains you want your center to sound the same way as the mains... Some, like Totem, don't really have matching centers for Arros for example... They say they all centers match all mains, but that's nonsensical as the speakers sound different, the same centers can't sound the same as all the speakers...

So if you really want a center, you should definitely take it in account before buying the mains... You really don't want to be mixing and matching brands here...

"less than 5" high", that'll be hard to find, means speakers with drivers less than 5 inch drivers, which is a bit on the small size... Most two ways have a 5.25, 5.5, 6.5 inch woofers... Smaller than that, like the Arros, seems be serious compromise with SPL & bass... Though of course, a high quality driver can somewhat offset the problem...

The Dynaudio suggestion is a good one, but if you want to stay under $1000 for a l/r pair, do yourself a favor and look up some reviews on the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1. Very nice set of speakers for less than $1000.

I also considered the monitor audio rx6s, but after taking a chance on the Sierras, I'm hooked...

which is why I suggested the Excite X22, the cabinet is 5" tall, the drivers are 4.4", but they are high quality drivers and do produce good bass for all thats needed in HT and music. plus if you do crossover at 80 hz, then it will have less bass to produce, and above 80 hz it will do great. The tweeter is the same as the X12s, so they will match soundwise.

+1 on the Sierras--definitely look into these. I own the Sierras and the Monitor Audios and they're both outstanding. Completely different sounding but both top notch.

For what it is worth...

Little bit of back info on the Totem Arro...

The Arro is designed to be a rear HT speaker to the Forest, Sttaf etc.

Yes, they work well on their own, but I'd rather have the Dreamcatcher/Rainmaker on stands with a subwoofer.

No you won't... Unless you live near the Ascend headquarters or know someone who own a pair, you're not hearing Ascends... ID...

ID = Internet Direct = Not sold in stores, purchased online from manufacturer, and shipped directly to you. The idea is save $$$ by not having a dealer take a cut out of the profits. Ex: Totem sells the dealer Arros for X$, say 600$ (50% is the typical markup for speakers I've been told), and the dealer sells them to you for 1200$, so 2 people make money off a sale. By going ID, it would be like purchasing straight from Totem, so no store/dealer adding to the price, definitely potential savings to have there by bypassing a dealer...

Basically, with ID, you have to take a dive... (Unless you're lucky and someone owns them and is willing to let you hear them...) Some offer free home trials, Ascend offers 30 days I think, BUT, if you decide to send them back, you have to pay the return shipping, so you lose on shipping both ways... Meaning 25$ to ship to you, and whatever to ship them back... Others, like Aperion I think it is, offers free shipping both ways, so you're out nothing if you decide to return them. (But actually, the cost of shipping, returns & lost shipping is simply factored in to the price of the speakers, so if you keep them, you end up paying a fraction of the costs for those who returned them...)


Bollocks... In a HT environment, you want to use speakers sounding the same, or at least alike... Sttafs & Arros sound nothing alike, so unless they've been designed by someone who really doesn't know what he's doing, they were not designed to be a rear HT speaker to the Forest, Sttafs, etc...

If they were really designed to be rear for Forests, they'd at least use similar drivers. Ex: same tweeter type (metal vs soft dome), same driver brand/model, etc... Same for Sttafs, etc... But that would mean that there would be 1 type of Arro to match each speaker they're supposed to match...

Let's look at it this way. It's like someone's selling a green shirt who's color will supposedly match 5 pairs of completely different colored pants, like blue/yellow/pink/cyan/orange. "Whatever color pants you choose, the green shirt will be the same color as the pants"... Uh no... With clothes it might be possible that colors match without being the same, but for audio, it doesn't, the more different they sound, the worst match they are... Since all Totem sound very differently from one another, they obviously can't match each other...

I added in the Sttaf under the assumption(now that I've read some Totem forums..was not accurate) that the Arro matched all the speakers in the Totem "columns" line...

I have a friend with Forests and Arro rears. His theater(obviously) sounds fantastic with an Emotiva pushing on them.

So...I retract PART of what I said...yes the Arro makes a great rear speaker...but not for ALL the columns...

But I will still say that, unless you fill up the Arro with weight, there is almost "too much" inner box to be useful. If Totem had made the Arro like a "Dreamcatcher on a stand", they'd probably sound better.

For what it is worth, most of the reviews of the Arro indicate the reviewer put buckshot into them to add weight to keep them upright...and the "reduced volume" left over actually added to the detail of the speaker...

Right, they'd make great rears for Totem Arros... For the rest, it depends on your definition of 'great'...

Some people think B0SE sounds fantastic... But not everyone would agree! Just sayin... If you heard a Totem setup with Totem Forest all around, I'd bet a five you'd prefer it over a mix and match Totem setup... That is, a Model1 center, Forest Mains, Arros rears... Or any kind of mismatched speakers... If you compared both systems, that might change your opinion of what is fantastic...

I'm not saying Forests & Arros would sound like wet used toilet paper, but the Forests and Arros sound quite different, because they are quite different. .75 inch Soft dome tweeter vs one inch Metal tweeter for the Forest, HiVi woofer vs whatever non-hivi woofer the Arros use, and note that the 6.5 inch HiVi woofer uses a 3 inch voice coil, woofers are also of different material than the Arro's 4.5 inch woofer... They have absolutely nothing in common besides the fact that they're both made by Totem... (And maybe that they're poorly braced, if the Forest is also poorly braced...) You could go to a shop with your eyes covered, pick a speaker at random, and they probably wouldn't be worst surrounds than the Arros... Yes, they are THAT different...


What's that supposed to mean? You mean the cabinet has too much inner volume? I beg to differ... They're so slim there's less internal volume than an average pair of 800$ 2 way bookshelves...


Huh, the "Dreamcatcher on a stand" is a regular pair of dreamcatchers, which they have made and do sell... I've seen only a rare few who prefer them to Arros... As for DCs with a soft dome in a tiny cabinet with 4.5 inch woofers instead of 4 inches, I honestly don't see a point...


Uh, no... The box volume doesn't change when they're filled with sand/pellets/whatever... You fill up a separate compartment, separate than the one which houses the crossover, drivers & port... There's no reduced volume at all. How can you even imagine such a thing... What would happen if you filled the cabinets and moved the speakers around once filled? The crap you put inside would bounce everywhere, on the crossover, wires, and the inside of the drivers? lol How do you get it out? Through the port? lol

As for supposed added detail, I don't buy it. I'd bet all they did was a placebo prone sighted test... Let me know when someone does a blind or DBT test and identifies a filled vs unfilled pair of Arros...

Great job on the "attack mode" Grandarf

After FURTHER reading...ok, the Arro has a separate chamber. But, reading on Totems own forum, Audiogon and Sight & Vision...everybody who has put weight(sand or buckshot) in them says the same thing...

Bass is improved.

And really?
The Totem Arro, Sttaf and Forest all sound different...gee thanks.

The Waterfall Audio Niagara sounds different than the Waterfall Audio Victoria, which sounds different than the Iguascu.

But...the Waterfalls will sound "more alike" than making a theater out of Iguascu and Arros.