Cinavia questions. - Page 4

^^ I would hope lol. but we all know there is hundreds of blind flashers that dont bother to read notes or anything.

But the rest of the Dune-players use the same BD code as Prime/Max/B1 to play isos, so a Cinavia update for Prime/Max/B1 will affect the other players too. Either they'll also include Cinavia, or they'll lose full BD support.

I don't think either will happen for the current generation of products, not just Dune but anything with the current generation of SoCs. I believe that none of the current chips have the capacity to detect the watermark.

Really?! Show me the statement from HDI that says that! I can't seem to find it...

I have heard that. So either the next generation of Dune will be based on legacy SoC or the new models will no longer have a BD disk option.

I hope the latter, but that is just me! I could care less about the disc option, but that is personal preference. Going to try using clownbd to strip a bd to a single file and see if I can stream it via my oppo due to your suggestion Kelson! Thanks again for that!

I just stumbled onto this thread and my first question was will the hardware check for the watermark if a physical disc is not involved? Even if the hardware is cinavia compliant, does it check for the watermark for material that's being streamed?

I'm fascinated by the technology behind this too....And I've read somewhere it is an ADAPTABLE DRM, that Verance EXPECTS it to be broken....Now that is a bada** piece of DRM, man!

I also read on Slysoft's forums the opinion that it will take professionals to reverse-engineer this baby.....IMO, this, the push for Ultraviolet, and SOPA, which I hope dies on the vine, sounds like something brewing to me....

Yes... the watermark is embeded in the audio track... survives camera recording too... so if you are recording a home video and your TV is playing a movie with cinavia water mark in the background - then you try to play the homemade video file with cinavia hardware, then it will detect it and not play or something that prevents proper playback...

Hows about THAT for protecting fair use rights!

If SOPA becomes law, will it be impossible to buy Anydvd and other such software?

It is certainly possible because the PS3 does that right now. There are posts on the DVD Fab forum of people running into Cinavia using their PS3 to stream DVD Fab rips of Cinavia infected titles and having the audio cut out after a time. What will actually happen in the future with other hardware remains to be seen, but it is quite possible that new BluRay players that support DLNA streaming will also enforce Cinavia on the streaming side as well as the disk side. It all depends on the license terms they negotiate.

The number of titles infected with Cinavia is continually growing. Four studios have licensed Cinavia. Of the four only Universal has yet to put out a Cinavia infected BluRay title while Warner and 20th Century have only put out one a piece. The rest are from Sony who appears totally committed to it. It appears everything Sony is putting out has Cinavia.

The best we can do is to stay informed. And to that end, the following list of Cinavia infected titles is from the DVD Fab Cinavia Blog:

Title	Studio	Release	Cinavia
The Losers*	Warner Bros	20jul2010	English track only
The Karate Kid (2010)*	Sony	05oct2010	most of the tracks
The Other Guys	Sony	14dec2010	English track only
Resident Evil: Afterlife*	Sony	28dec2010	English track only
Resident Evil: Afterlife 3D*	Sony	28dec2010	English track only
Salt	Sony	21dec2010	English track only
The Social Network	Sony	11jan2011	English track only
Takers	Sony	18jan2011	English track only
Burlesque	Sony	01mar2011	NOT CONFIRMED
The Tourist*	Sony	22mar2011	English track only
How Do You Know	Sony	22mar2011	NOT CONFIRMED
The Green Hornet	Sony	03may2011	English track only
The Green Hornet 3D	Sony	03may2011	English track only
The Roommate	Sony	17may2011	English track only
Battle: Los Angeles	Sony	14jun2011	English track only
Priest	Sony	16aug2011	English track only
Priest 3D	Sony	16aug2011	English track only
Dylan Dog: Dead Of Night*	20th Century Fox	26jul2011	English track only
Zookeeper	Sony	11oct2011	English track only
Bad Teacher	Sony	18oct2011	English track only
30 Minutes or Less	Sony	29nov2011	English track only
The Smurfs	Sony	02dec2011	English track only
The Smurfs 3D	Sony	02dec2011	English track only
Friends with Benefits	Sony	02dec2011	English track only
Life, Above All*	Sony	06dec2011	Northern Sotho track
Straw Dogs	Sony	20dec2011	English track only
Colombiana*	Sony	20dec2011	English track only
Midnight in Paris*	Sony	20dec2011	Just announced
The Guard*	Sony	03jan2012	Just announced
Don't Be Afraid of the Dark	Sony	03jan2012	Just announced
Moneyball	Sony	10jan2012	Just announced
Higher Ground	Sony	10jan2012	Just announced
Courageous	Sony	17jan2012	Just announced
The Ides of March*	Sony	17jan2012	Just announced
Bucky Larson: Born to Be a Star	Sony	17jan2012	Just announced
Restless	Sony	24jan2012	Just announced
Drive*	Sony	31jan2012	Just announced
Anonymous	Sony	07feb2012	Just announced
The Rum Diary*	Sony	31jan2012	Just announced

* for those, in teritories where the movie is not released by Warner Bros., Sony or 20th Century Fox, the Blu-ray does not have Cinavia

A little OT: I can just wish I had the BDP-93 but the price tag is just a bit too steep. I have a 981HD and just love what it does for DVD upconversion but don't use it much since I went the media streamer route. According to the BDP-93 wiki, it will steam .m2ts files over DLNA. I'll be real curious how you make out and your impressions of PQ vs. your other streamers. All my BD rips are BD.m2ts (using Clown_BD) that I stream to my WD players over DLNA. I'm getting a Panasonic BD player for Christmas (before they get infected) that streams via DLNA so I'll be testing my BD.m2ts files on it also -- especially my Cinavia rips.

No replies from you on where your evidence is on the media player industry based mostly on piracy? I have read your last several weeks of posts around AVS and you seem knowledgeable and helpful, but this "media player industry based mostly on piracy" seems to be a common theme with you. So I think it's fair to ask you to support it. If you don't reply here, I'll pick one of your other posts and call you out there.

I am only asking for your source on this piracy charge.

Jeff

If many people play so called backups of their collection, isn't even a backup not allowed in the US?

I think this is where the sticky part comes in... If I remember correctly the fair use clause allows back ups however it's illegal to break the encryption.

It's sad....

I'm one of the people with ~40 movies ripped to a server and all the physical media stuck in a box. If I get rid of a movie I delete it off the server as well. A movie server is a lifesaver for those with a clumsy family or kids with grubby hands.

Still, I'm in the "wrong" for having to break the encryption to play it on a linux system... Thankfully I doubt cinavia will ever make it to any of my linux systems!

Cinavia is horrible.... A few weeks ago we had a birthday party for a three year old. As the kids were running around and playing we had Cars playing in the background. Lots of people were taking pictures and video with phones, etc. If the movie playing had a cinavia watermark all the video taken that day (even in another room but still within recording distance of the TV) would not play back on any Cinavia tainted player....

+1
I'm also betting (by investing my $$ in a Dune D1) that Dune "will do the right thing" for it's customers.
Maybe there will be no big announcement- for obvious reasons, but something more subtle like a mention of Cinavia in the FW release notes. That's pretty much all we can ask for if they're forced to include Cinavia in their FW because of their licensing agreements with the BDA. As mentioned in other threads- they could also offer an optional feature stripped FW with no BD java or whatever particular feature it is that triggers the requirement to include Cinavia. It would be up to the device owner at that point to decide what they want to do. I could live with that.

You realize that Cinavia will make the media player industry even stronger, right? The demand for players that don't support this stupid technology will grow by leaps and bounds.

I hope eliminating the physical drive will allow the media streamers to sidestep this issue. Otherwise I'm going to have a bunch of hard drives that have suddenly become paperweights!

Yes, that is pretty much it in a nutshell. Under DMCA you can open the door if it is unlocked but if the door is locked, no matter how feeble the lock may be, it is illegal for you to break the lock and it is illegal for you to make and distribute tools that others can use to break the lock.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the number of people ripping content for their home theater media players is dwarfed by the number of people ripping or illegally downloading content to be streamed on their portable devices with tiny screens -- tablets, smart-phones, MP3/video players, etc. Tiny screens = low resolution = small files that are easily downloaded in reasonable time. That's why the new push by the studios to provide protected digital downloads and Ultraviolet -- not for us, but for the people with these mobile devices.

Current streamers already sidestep this issue. Your hard drives will never become paperweights. Well, not because of Cinavia anyway.

I don't think that is going out on a limb at all. I doubt that anyone really wants to prevent videophiles from continuing their hobby. In so many ways that is extremely healthy for the industry. That being said, the $60 media players are hardly aimed at that crowd. I hope that the high-end users will be fine. The worse case scenario is that they get caught in a battle between those who want a completely open free system and the video industry. In that case, it might be that the industry feels they would have to sacrifice the videophiles in order to deal with the majority of media player users who are populating their collections with torrents and nzb files.

I don't know what some around here mean by evidence. We aren't talking cause effect, massive random sampling or whatever. At any given time it is virtually impossible to get accurate estimates on the number of people even living in a country let alone an estimate on their media collections. We are talking about a massive statistical analysis that is not trivial in either the design or analysis. Most opinions are based on anecdotal evidence which is hardly the gold standard for inference. In any case you would have to be living under a rock to not realize that most media players, iPods, etc ... are full of pirated material. There simply hasn't been the digital distribution infrastructure available to expect anything else.

Philip

In theory that could be the case, but tech-savvy people on the "Net could find options to get around it......It is not like Cinavia by any stretch.....

I don't follow? I thought part of the issue being discussed was that streamers like the Dune and PCH may not work once Cinavia is implemented fully next year?

Per Lost Dog----"I think this is where the sticky part comes in... If I remember correctly the fair use clause allows back ups however it's illegal to break the encryption"....

I always wondered who the idiot bureaucrat was that let THIS get into the DMCA....Let me see, I have an encrypted movie disk that I own, I want to back it up, according to the DMCA I can back it up, but gee, if I break the encryption TO back it up, it's illegal....Ergo I can't legally back up my disk without getting into hot water......HUH?

Or you can do what I-and countless others-do and tell the MPAA and RIAA to stuff it up their collective a** and copy things as you see fit.

Not everyone is in such a secure state as to disregard the potential legal consequences. That sounds like very foolish advice and young people should think twice before taking it. I have never quite understood why some people don't care about having a criminal record, even if it is for something many or most people would view as minor. This is totally irresponsible in the extreme.

philip

In zrdb's defence, he did say 'as you see fit' and 'copy'

Philip, there is another side to media piracy which today's mainstream media tries to suppress: Exposure which may lead to increased sales. Most of the people downloading media wouldn't download it in the first place if it were to cost money.. But, sometimes, they see something good in the downloaded stuff and could probably go to a theater to watch it or support the artist in some other way. This type of exposure is better than no chance of exposure at all.

In effect, I don't agree with the premise that piracy leads to worsened sales as far as non-tangible media like films, music and e-books are concerned (the 'you wouldn't download a car' analogy : Pirating the design of a car and selling it (or counterfeiting designer handbags etc.) will lead to bad sales for the original designers, but it is not obvious that it is the case with media playable via computers). It is clear that the MAFIAA is trying a lot to keep its outdated business model running in the modern age. But, why should people suffer for their purpose? I say, let the status quo wrt piracy remain as-is. Films and music used to (and still) cost much more than their true value because of the extensive number of middle men taking cuts for very little contribution to the actual product. With the emergence of the Internet, the middle men are losing relevance, and they are fighting tooth and nail to not let that happen.

If you think about it, 99c for a single song on iTunes is also costly. Why? Apple takes a cut there (as does any other online marketplace). Direct download from artists is much better and bypasses the new middleman. How will direct downloads and artists gain popularity? Initial steps would be spreading their media on P2P / online file sharing websites and getting discovered through the search engines. Everything has an upside and piracy has its upsides for the artists too (the recent Louis CK direct sale model raised almost a million dollars for the artist -- no middle man, no DRM involved).

When the VCRs came about, people started recording TV programs and this has continued into PVRs and DVRs now. In the future, people will find a way to record online streams from Netflix and Hulu Plus.. Imagine what the industry would do then when they are not even able to adapt to the emergence of the Internet properly.

I can believe that. It seems strange for some to claim that a pirated file is a lost sale. I certainly agree that it can be hidden advertising. Not sure this would help in cultures where buying media files is considered a waste of money.

There has to be some acknowledgement that intellectual and artistic ideas are important and that we no longer live in an era where artists and academics should be happy just not to starve. This is not a simple topic and it will be more of an evolution in the way people view certain activities.

In any case I just wanted to point out that having a criminal record is not a minor issue. I suppose it varies from place to place but it seems to me that it might exclude people from certain parts of society. It's not so much an issue of morality that I was thinking of but rather one of practicality.

philip

They wouldn't have a criminal record because backing up your own dvd, by itself, is not a criminal offense. 0 people, ever, have been arrested for it. You need to do more than that for a criminal prosecution.

distribution of copies certainly can be. (and especially if you make any money from it)...so folks who were DISTRIBUTING (and especially selling) pirated stuff have gone to jail. But that's not what we're discussing here.


There's also some civil liability if you think the movie guys magically have psychics that know you backed up your copy of Killer Klowns from Outer Space, somehow get admissable evidence you did (not sure how they do this since you're not sharing the copy with the outside world, right?) and they decide to sue you (though the most they could get is $2500 for the backup)... but that doesn't give you a criminal record.

Mostly you seem big on trying to create more FUD about the whole thing.

(disclaimer, the above refers to the US- if you've got some weird "we throw you in prison for 20 years for backing up a DVD" law in Canada, I'm not aware of it)