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Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 7

post #181 of 1176
8/7/11 at 12:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

If Sandybridge has a problem with 23.976 fps then why are these CPUs highly recommended? I’d rather not have a separate graphic card which uses more energy & creates heat, but having smooth playing video has top priority.

Would it be better to first select a graphic card that does proper video & then choose a workable CPU?

Now every SNB IGP supports ~23.973Hz refresh rate if 23Hz is selected (confirmed with Pentium G840/Core i3-2100/Core i7-2600K + ASRock and GIGABYTE mb). That means 1 frame drop every ~5 min. If this is not acceptable, then GeForce with a custom resolution like this (and AMD HD 5xxx with PowerStrip) is the only solution.

SNB is still the best processor even if you are going to add a discrete graphics card.
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post #182 of 1176
8/7/11 at 3:25am
I did not realize that playing 23.976 fps was such a problem. My main use for an HTPC would be to record & play back OTA HD programs. From what I have been able to find out these are mostly 29.97 or 59.94 fps. Does SNB properly handle these rates?

Being able to play DVDs and/or Blu-ray would be nice too, therefore the concern about playing 23.976 fps if called upon.

Just curious, do those real cheap DVD players play back at 23.976 fps? If so, how can they do it so cheaply?
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post #183 of 1176
8/7/11 at 3:50am
Frame drop/repeat could happen if the refresh rate does not match the frame rate. It's not specific to 23.976fps. SNB 59Hz = ~59.9318Hz, that means 1 frame repeat every 2 min. AMD 1 frame repeat every 3 min, NVIDIA 1 frame repeat every 13 min. But it's even harder to see dropped/repeated frame at this frequency (17ms per frame).
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post #184 of 1176
8/15/11 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidC2 View Post
Could you test out with the Cinema Smooth feature off? Some people don't like that kind of tech. I have a LG TV that claims 240Hz, achieved using similar techniques that Samsung uses. Some people are just bothered by it. I'm not the type that gets annoyed by it, but you might be. The "240Hz" or "600Hz" isn't the true refresh rate. They use some tricks to achieve that without increasing the real refresh rate.
Interestingly - I never gave that a shot! Will do & post back.
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post #185 of 1176
9/26/11 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

I did not realize that playing 23.976 fps was such a problem. My main use for an HTPC would be to record & play back OTA HD programs. From what I have been able to find out these are mostly 29.97 or 59.94 fps. Does SNB properly handle these rates?

Being able to play DVDs and/or Blu-ray would be nice too, therefore the concern about playing 23.976 fps if called upon.

Just curious, do those real cheap DVD players play back at 23.976 fps? If so, how can they do it so cheaply?

I'm guessing dedicated chip design rather than making a chip that is a jack of all trades. But mostly I think Intel and AMD both just haven't bothered to get it right, it shouldn't be that hard to fix.
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post #186 of 1176
9/26/11 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

I'm guessing dedicated chip design rather than making a chip that is a jack of all trades. But mostly I think Intel and AMD both just haven't bothered to get it right, it shouldn't be that hard to fix.

Sorta kinda.

If it's what I think it is (and I must stress that I do not know what causes the in-exact 23.976fps behavior on SNB and prior products), it involves clock divider circuitry. I suspect, based on my experience with chips in general and not any specific chip, that it's been fairly standard practice to design in clocks which have even multiplies or at the very least easily-derived round muliples like 50, 60, or even 25. Dividing something by 1001, on the other hand... while it can be done, you don't get to leverage that same clock divider circuitry in anything other than the single application (24p Blu-ray). You can't even derive it by using dividers in series.

Can be done, but not as trivial and just changing a LUT value in a register file somewhere.
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post #187 of 1176
10/3/11 at 5:45am
i have a P5Q-EM motherboard with Intel GMA X4500HD

can i solve the 24p bug? because you are speaking about Clarkdale/SandyBridge but nothing about my integrated GPU

thx a lot
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post #188 of 1176
10/3/11 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchan81 View Post

i have a P5Q-EM motherboard with Intel GMA X4500HD

can i solve the 24p bug? because you are speaking about Clarkdale/SandyBridge but nothing about my integrated GPU

thx a lot

The "issue" is an Intel issue
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post #189 of 1176
10/3/11 at 6:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchan81 View Post

i have a P5Q-EM motherboard with Intel GMA X4500HD

can i solve the 24p bug? because you are speaking about Clarkdale/SandyBridge but nothing about my integrated GPU

thx a lot

Do you even notice it? If not there is nothing to "solve".
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post #190 of 1176
10/3/11 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Do you even notice it?

Yessss!!!!

to be honest I think the problem is most noticeable when I installed windows7 x64 1 week ago

before i had Vista x64 and I did not notice any problem (i think...)

it's crazy
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post #191 of 1176
10/3/11 at 6:49am
Thread Starter 
Intel now gives you 23.973 and as has been reported in this thread that is as good if not better than some of the other options.
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post #192 of 1176
10/3/11 at 6:59am
Why not use 60Hz refresh rate? It's better than an imprecise 23.976Hz.
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post #193 of 1176
10/3/11 at 7:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Why not use 60Hz refresh rate? It's better than an imprecise 23.976Hz.

Renethx - that's what I do. Looks great. After all at some point I just want to enjoy a movie.
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post #194 of 1176
10/3/11 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Why not use 60Hz refresh rate? It's better than an imprecise 23.976Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Renethx - that's what I do. Looks great. After all at some point I just want to enjoy a movie.

Thats what I do when playing a Blu Ray disk. Using Win DVD Pro 2010 at 60hz makes for a really nice and totally trouble free viewing experience with disks. It plays, it bitstreams, it looks and sounds great. It's painless. (It's not good for much else; for everything else I'm using J River MC)

BTW, I noticed that the new Win DVD Pro 2011 is now supposed to have added support MKV and MP4 that was lacking in 2010 and before.
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post #195 of 1176
10/3/11 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Why not use 60Hz refresh rate? It's better than an imprecise 23.976Hz.

Don't you have the same problems + judder at 59/60Hz?
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post #196 of 1176
10/3/11 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Don't you have the same problems + judder at 59/60Hz?

I recommend 60.000Hz because most (or many; I don't have statistics ; surely not every) people in NTSC countries can't notice the difference between 23.976Hz and 60Hz, in particular in a relatively small display. It looks like many people insist on 23.976Hz simply because they are taught that 23.976fps is the frame rate of BD and it should be played back at 23.976Hz or a multiple of it, while practically they don't notice the difference (i.e. 3:2 judder) at all.

Unless the player configuration is bad, there will be zero dropped frame at 60.000Hz refresh rate whatever the original frame rate is. It is perfectly smooth (up to 3:2 something for film). assassin and Zon2020 testified it. (Never look at sawtooth lines in EVR CP stats. )
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post #197 of 1176
10/3/11 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I recommend 60.000Hz because most (or many; I don't have statistics ; surely not every) people in NTSC countries can't notice the difference between 23.976Hz and 60Hz, in particular in a relatively small display. It looks like many people insist on 23.976Hz simply because they are taught that 23.976fps is the frame rate of BD and it should be played back at 23.976Hz or a multiple of it, while practically they don't notice the difference (i.e. 3:2 judder) at all.

Unless the player configuration is bad, there will be zero dropped frame at 60.000Hz refresh rate whatever the original frame rate is. It is perfectly smooth (up to 3:2 something for film). (Never look at sawtooth lines in EVR CP stats. )

You mean that as long as the GPU can maintain 60.000Hz any frame drops to account for the conversion from 23.976 FPS to 60FPS are not visible?
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post #198 of 1176
10/3/11 at 1:40pm
Frames are repeated to make 23.976fps to 60.000fps but never dropped.

- 1/(23.976 Hz) = 41.71 ms
- 1/(60 Hz) = 16.67 ms
- 16.67 ms x 3 = 50 ms
- 16.67 ms x 2 = 33.33 ms

41.71ms is long enough for some people to spot a frame drop/repeat. But it's practically impossible to spot a frame repeat of the 16.67ms duration in the uniform 3:2 pattern that happens every 1.67 seconds:

50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 50ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 50ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms,..
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post #199 of 1176
10/3/11 at 9:42pm
A frame repeat is just as bad as a dropped frame in my opinion. But I guess if you're from a country with NTSC standard, you're used to it. I can barely watch 3:2 pulldown. For me it's a lot worse having a frame repeat that often than having one dropped frame every 40 sec or so... But all this is very individual. You should just try out the different settings and find the one that's best for you.
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post #200 of 1176
10/3/11 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilsga View Post

A frame repeat is just as bad as a dropped frame in my opinion. But I guess if you're from a country with NTSC standard, you're used to it. I can barely watch 3:2 pulldown. For me it's a lot worse having a frame repeat that often than having one dropped frame every 40 sec or so... But all this is very individual. You should just try out the different settings and find the one that's best for you.

You don't have to *guess*, I am talking about people in NTSC countries as I stated explicitly. People from PAL countries can safely ignore my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I recommend 60.000Hz because most (or many; I don't have statistics ; surely not every) people in NTSC countries can't notice the difference between 23.976Hz and 60Hz, in particular in a relatively small display.
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post #201 of 1176
10/3/11 at 10:29pm
Sorry, missed that part
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post #202 of 1176
10/4/11 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Intel now gives you 23.973 and as has been reported in this thread that is as good if not better than some of the other options.

OK, but i think you talking about Clarkdale/SB hardware

I have G45 hardware... is the same?
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post #203 of 1176
10/4/11 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Frames are repeated to make 23.976fps to 60.000fps but never dropped.

- 1/(23.976 Hz) = 41.71 ms
- 1/(60 Hz) = 16.67 ms
- 16.67 ms x 3 = 50 ms
- 16.67 ms x 2 = 33.33 ms

41.71ms is long enough for some people to spot a frame drop/repeat. But it's practically impossible to spot a frame repeat of the 16.67ms duration in the uniform 3:2 pattern that happens every 1.67 seconds:

50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 50ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 50ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms, 50ms, 33ms,..

How does a GPU's inability to maintain a perfect refresh rate impact that? Do the presentation times just get shorter/longer as it fluctuates?
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post #204 of 1176
10/4/11 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchan81 View Post

OK, but i think you talking about Clarkdale/SB hardware

I have G45 hardware... is the same?

No, Clarkdale and G45 GPUs do whole number refresh rates.
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post #205 of 1176
10/4/11 at 5:42pm
Just want to throw out there my experience with ATI and Nvidia.

ATI 5670 (sapphire brand) = 23.97601 out of the box.

Nvidia GTS 450 (EVGA brand) = 23.97601-08 with custom resolution of 24, front porch and vsync both 5, vertical pixels 1124, 23.978

With both of these cards I can watch an entire movie without a dropped frame.

In the end I am using the Nvidia as I found Its image to have a bit more depth as well as the benefit of using LAV Cuvid.

It seems like peoples experience widely varies but for me it was not hard to get "perfect" 23.976"
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post #206 of 1176
10/4/11 at 5:56pm
You left out something.
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post #207 of 1176
10/4/11 at 9:45pm
Oops I did didn't I! Fixed it!
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post #208 of 1176
10/5/11 at 1:44am
my HTPC with Nvidia 430, play MKV or M2ts file at exactly 23.9768xxx. MPC-HC with LAV+MadVR.
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post #209 of 1176
10/5/11 at 1:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlievoviii View Post

my HTPC with Nvidia 430, play MKV or M2ts file at exactly 23.9768xxx. MPC-HC with LAV+MadVR.

Obviously you managed that with a custom resolution, could you tell us the exact settings?
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post #210 of 1176
10/5/11 at 2:13am
23.9760 is the target though, 23.9768 is pretty good, but not great.
I managed to get down to 23.9762 now, but the settings are pretty much dependent on your TV as well.
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