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Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 8

post #211 of 1176
10/5/11 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theod78 View Post

Obviously you managed that with a custom resolution, could you tell us the exact settings?

made a custom resolution with 23.977 clock, didnt change anything else. Even though Nvidia will show 24hz in the Nvidia control panel but it's a software issues that Nvidia still haven't fix that for ages. Anyway Physical it's actually change to your custom resolution, so dont worry about what the Nvidia control panel will show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

23.9760 is the target though, 23.9768 is pretty good, but not great.
I managed to get down to 23.9762 now, but the settings are pretty much dependent on your TV as well.

Trust me i spent hours and hours trying little by little different clocks, it would either go over or under the target/ideal clock "23.976000". So i pretty much gave up and settle at 23.9768xx
BTW do you have nvidia also ? what was the settings for your custom resolution to get 23.9762 ?
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post #212 of 1176
10/6/11 at 10:50pm
What am I doing wrong?

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post #213 of 1176
10/6/11 at 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlievoviii View Post

Trust me i spent hours and hours trying little by little different clocks, it would either go over or under the target/ideal clock "23.976000". So i pretty much gave up and settle at 23.9768xx
BTW do you have nvidia also ? what was the settings for your custom resolution to get 23.9762 ?


LOL

i am sorry, i found that post very funny.

nevcairiel is the developer of LAVCUVID.
details here: (Advanced MPC-HC Setup)
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post #214 of 1176
10/7/11 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post

LOL

i am sorry, i found that post very funny.

nevcairiel is the developer of LAVCUVID.
details here: (Advanced MPC-HC Setup)

i dont see what so funny ?
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post #215 of 1176
10/8/11 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I recommend 60.000Hz because most (or many; I don't have statistics ; surely not every) people in NTSC countries can't notice the difference between 23.976Hz and 60Hz, in particular in a relatively small display. It looks like many people insist on 23.976Hz simply because they are taught that 23.976fps is the frame rate of BD and it should be played back at 23.976Hz or a multiple of it, while practically they don't notice the difference (i.e. 3:2 judder) at all.

Unless the player configuration is bad, there will be zero dropped frame at 60.000Hz refresh rate whatever the original frame rate is. It is perfectly smooth (up to 3:2 something for film). assassin and Zon2020 testified it. (Never look at sawtooth lines in EVR CP stats. )


I totally disagreed wiht you. playing 23.976 movies using 60hz is now way is as smooth as playing it at 23.796.
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post #216 of 1176
10/8/11 at 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlievoviii View Post

I totally disagreed wiht you. playing 23.976 movies using 60hz is now way is as smooth as playing it at 23.796.

Agreed , if you play back 23.976 material at 60Hz you will trigger uneven frame delivery , some frames will inevitably be repeated and this is fairly obvious in the motion presentation.

The only way to play 23.976 at 60Hz without trashing the motion presentation is to vector interpolate the frames up to 60Hz , this produces a whole range of unpleasant artifacts itself.

So the ideal way to present 23.976 material is with an "exact" refresh multiple so that all coherent frames are repeated at regular rates with consistent motion presentation. Exactly the same way that it happens in a cinema presentation be it film or digital projection.

There are a couple of routes to do this. The "simplest" technique is to ensure the video pipeline hardware has accuret timing reference and is in itself built to sufficent tolerance to provide consistent timing accuracy ( I doubt they get as accurate as 4 decimal places).

The other way is to resample the audio according to timing flucuations with the video stream in order to preserve sync wihtout having to drop or make irregular frame repeats. (Reclock and some EVR pipeline implimentation a case in point)
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post #217 of 1176
10/9/11 at 6:47am
Folks,

I have an Xtreamer Ultra HTPC and a 55LX9500 (3d ready). There's also a denon 2312ci in between but I think it hardly matter.

I've been trying to get the correct framerate, but if I set the TV to use 24Hz, it turns itself into "3D" mode.

I also can't enable the "True Cinema" mode because it stays grayed out while I'm connected to the HTPC.

Lastly, is MPC-HC the only choice for doing that? I can tell XBMC to use the same refresh rate as the movie framerate (and then the TV understands this is 3D content).

Thanks,

-K
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post #218 of 1176
10/9/11 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by klauskiwi View Post

Folks,

I have an Xtreamer Ultra HTPC and a 55LX9500 (3d ready). There's also a denon 2312ci in between but I think it hardly matter.

I've been trying to get the correct framerate, but if I set the TV to use 24Hz, it turns itself into "3D" mode.

I also can't enable the "True Cinema" mode because it stays grayed out while I'm connected to the HTPC.

Lastly, is MPC-HC the only choice for doing that? I can tell XBMC to use the same refresh rate as the movie framerate (and then the TV understands this is 3D content).

Thanks,

-K

Sounds like you have an NVIDIA GPU. You will need to disable 3D when not using it.
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post #219 of 1176
10/9/11 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlievoviii View Post

I totally disagreed wiht you. playing 23.976 movies using 60hz is now way is as smooth as playing it at 23.796.

Same for me. I tried 60 for 23 video and found it not smooth even with ReClock's 23>24 adaptation.
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post #220 of 1176
10/9/11 at 10:50am
i get jerky playback when use reclock ((
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post #221 of 1176
10/9/11 at 12:17pm
Disable vsync in ReClock.
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post #222 of 1176
10/9/11 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

........


...


sorry for the noobie question, but what do I need to measure the refresh rate? From the screen shot it looks like it is MPC-HC. Is there a particular version I would need? What else would I need to install? What are the settings so I get this on-screen information?

(All I want to do is to see the actual refresh rate of my video card. I would like to keep my system as clean as possible and not install any "stuff" that I do not necessarily need (using TMT5).)

Thanks!
____
Axel
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post #223 of 1176
10/9/11 at 12:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

sorry for the noobie question, but what do I need to measure the refresh rate? From the screen shot it looks like it is MPC-HC. Is there a particular version I would need? What else would I need to install? What are the settings so I get this on-screen information?

(All I want to do is to see the actual refresh rate of my video card. I would like to keep my system as clean as possible and not install any "stuff" that I do not necessarily need (using TMT5).)

Thanks!
____
Axel

Why do you care? Does it look good? Do you notice any issues?

Just enjoy your HTPC and your movies unless you are having issues.
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post #224 of 1176
10/9/11 at 1:23pm
Isn't it ctl + j during playback?
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post #225 of 1176
10/9/11 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Why do you care? Does it look good? Do you notice any issues?

Just enjoy your HTPC and your movies unless you are having issues.

I am having issues....
____
Axel
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post #226 of 1176
10/9/11 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davinleeds View Post

Isn't it ctl + j during playback?

That's it! Thanks much!
____
Axel
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post #227 of 1176
10/9/11 at 6:41pm
Hi guys, I am late to the party as I just got into the HTPC game after more or less giving up (at least for now) on my Boxee Box for movie playback. Assassin directed me over here and I have been conferring a bit with Ganesh over email too.

Unlike some here, I DO notice frame drops from inconsistent 23.97xx output and I DO prefer the look for motion of 1080p/23.976 going to my Panasonic VT30 compared to sending it at 1080P/60.

I do all of my viewing with XBMC, I'm running 10.1 (not sure if any newer nighties are better.

So, here's the quick part;

I built a Fusion based system (A4-3400) and while I had a lot of problems getting the drivers set correctly for overscan and what not, once I did, I did not notice ANY frame drops in any of the movies I watched.

However, being fussy, I wanted something faster for rendering XBMC menus and changed the A4-3400 out for an i3-2100 + Nvidia GPU. I was very happy with the overall system speed, but I noticed some problems during playback. Every few minutes I would see something on the screen I didn't like. A little bit of digging proved this out to be the irritating frame drops (or duplicated frames) and I was picking up on them.

So, at this point, what is my best option? I currently have a GT440 that I picked up. Should I try to clock it in closer to 23.976 using some of the custom resolution settings mentioned here? I see a note from Ganesh back in July that the 24.00 output problem from Intel was "fixed" with sandy bridge, but see nothing further about it. Is it actually fixed, should I just rip the GPU out and use the onboard graphics? Should I go back to ATI?

Any help appreciated. While I know that many people "just enjoy their movies" I am watching from 9'-10' back from a 65" screen and the frame drops are rather distracting to me.... I am (as others are) baffled that $50 Blu-ray players can do a better job at this then high end HTPC setups. It's rather bizarre, I guess HT users are an extreme niche at the moment.
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post #228 of 1176
10/10/11 at 6:35am
The fixed Sandy Bridge output isn't perfect, but it is a lot closer than it initially was at 24.0 fps. Now it is approx. 23.973, meaning that 23.976 material will drop a frame every 5 minutes.

From what I've read here, GT440s output near 23.978, giving you a duplicate frame every 8 minutes. Because you already have the GT440, I'd recommend trying a custom resolution to get closer to 23.976.
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post #229 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:42am
Okay, so finally I am getting somewhere. I had a GT520 before I bought this GT440 and it seemed that I could not get a good clock at 23.976 with it.

This is what the GT440 was doing out of the box;

Attachment 224859

and this is what it's doing after creating a 23.976 custom resolution in the Nvidia control panel (which is a pain for reasons I won't explain here).

Attachment 224860

So, it looks like my clock is pretty spot on now. I do have a remaining question, but I don't know if anyone here can explain it as it is XBMC specific. In XBMC there is an option to "match refresh rate" and it seemed to work fine with the ATI Fusion hardware, but when I turn this option on with the Nvidia card it does not appear to do anything. Even if I play a video with a native refresh rate of 60fps (my band of brothers MKVs for example) I am still getting the 23.976 desktop resolution. If anyone knows how to fix this I would be very appreciative.
LL
LL
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post #230 of 1176
10/10/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Hi guys, I am late to the party as I just got into the HTPC game after more or less giving up (at least for now) on my Boxee Box for movie playback. Assassin directed me over here and I have been conferring a bit with Ganesh over email too.

Unlike some here, I DO notice frame drops from inconsistent 23.97xx output and I DO prefer the look for motion of 1080p/23.976 going to my Panasonic VT30 compared to sending it at 1080P/60.

I do all of my viewing with XBMC, I'm running 10.1 (not sure if any newer nighties are better.

So, here's the quick part;

I built a Fusion based system (A4-3400) and while I had a lot of problems getting the drivers set correctly for overscan and what not, once I did, I did not notice ANY frame drops in any of the movies I watched.

However, being fussy, I wanted something faster for rendering XBMC menus and changed the A4-3400 out for an i3-2100 + Nvidia GPU. I was very happy with the overall system speed, but I noticed some problems during playback. Every few minutes I would see something on the screen I didn't like. A little bit of digging proved this out to be the irritating frame drops (or duplicated frames) and I was picking up on them.

So, at this point, what is my best option? I currently have a GT440 that I picked up. Should I try to clock it in closer to 23.976 using some of the custom resolution settings mentioned here? I see a note from Ganesh back in July that the 24.00 output problem from Intel was "fixed" with sandy bridge, but see nothing further about it. Is it actually fixed, should I just rip the GPU out and use the onboard graphics? Should I go back to ATI?

Any help appreciated. While I know that many people "just enjoy their movies" I am watching from 9'-10' back from a 65" screen and the frame drops are rather distracting to me.... I am (as others are) baffled that $50 Blu-ray players can do a better job at this then high end HTPC setups. It's rather bizarre, I guess HT users are an extreme niche at the moment.

Are you selling your A4 and mobo?
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post #231 of 1176
10/10/11 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Are you selling your A4 and mobo?

Yes, PM me. There is someone at XBMC forums who wanted it but I have not heard back from him.
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post #232 of 1176
10/10/11 at 11:50am
Jmpage2,

Silly question but have you restarted your computer since creating your custom resolution? I have messed with this a lot and have found out several things.

1. After setting a custom resolution and then testing it without restarting I will get one result and then after restarting the computer the custom resolution will actually give me a different result (so far always closer to perfect.) I don,t know what the deal is with this, but after that any subsequent restarts shutdowns don,t affect it.

2. Applicable to your posted trouble I have after creating a custom resolution had the desktop stay stuck on it even if I select say 60hz and apply it, it remains on 24 and my frequency changers that I use would not work properly (Auto Frequency or MadVr internal). Restarting the computer would correct this and then work fine from then on

Hope this may help!
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post #233 of 1176
10/10/11 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezit73 View Post

Jmpage2,

Silly question but have you restarted your computer since creating your custom resolution? I have messed with this a lot and have found out several things.

1. After setting a custom resolution and then testing it without restarting I will get one result and then after restarting the computer the custom resolution will actually give me a different result (so far always closer to perfect.) I don,t know what the deal is with this, but after that any subsequent restarts shutdowns don,t affect it.

2. Applicable to your posted trouble I have after creating a custom resolution had the desktop stay stuck on it even if I select say 60hz and apply it, it remains on 24 and my frequency changers that I use would not work properly (Auto Frequency or MadVr internal). Restarting the computer would correct this and then work fine from then on

Hope this may help!

That is great information. I had tried restarting before but will try again, it also occurs to me that possibly I do not have the Yamaha set properly to pass through fully to the TV which could cause problems with resolution/frequency changes from XBMC. Some of this could also be caused by problems in the default XBMC video player.

So, for sure, there are no special "hidden" video settings I need to set in the Nvidia controls that would make sure it is passing through the original resolution/frequency?

When I tested a 60hz video in MPC-HC it came up perfectly at 60hz, but in XBMC it still showed 23.976 like it was trying to re-clock it always to the desktop resolution. I wonder if I need to change XBMC from "fullscreen" to "fullscreen window"?
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post #234 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:05pm
So, I have made more headway and figured out a few more things. I set my desktop to 1080p/60 and the video card still clocks out to 23.975 when playing my HD content. How often should I get a frame drop/duplication with 23.975? I was playing Iron Man and watched a solid 20+ minutes with no dropped frames, then saw one around 35-40 minutes, I looked at the frame count and it showed I had dropped two new frames. Bizarre.

I also used codec info to get a better idea of my media frame-rates. Most of my stuff is actually at 23.976 but I notice that some of my SD content is at 29.97 which I think is a normal NTSC resolution. This, when played back comes up at 23.976 so all I can figure is that Nvidia does not provide a driver that by default supports this resolution.
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post #235 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

So, I have made more headway and figured out a few more things. I set my desktop to 1080p/60 and the video card still clocks out to 23.975 when playing my HD content. How often should I get a frame drop/duplication with 23.975? I was playing Iron Man and watched a solid 20+ minutes with no dropped frames, then saw one around 35-40 minutes, I looked at the frame count and it showed I had dropped two new frames. Bizarre.

I also used codec info to get a better idea of my media frame-rates. Most of my stuff is actually at 23.976 but I notice that some of my SD content is at 29.97 which I think is a normal NTSC resolution. This, when played back comes up at 23.976 so all I can figure is that Nvidia does not provide a driver that by default supports this resolution.

1/(23.976-23.975) = 1000s/frame = 16m 40s/frame drop.

Codec info can't tell the frame rate of a SD content that the video renderer receives from the video decoder. SD content in NTSC is usually 480i59.94 (or 29.97 fps). But the final frame rate is

- film: 23.976 fps after IVTC (aka film-mode deinterlacing)
- video: 59.94 fps after deinterlacing (video-mode deinterlacing).
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post #236 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Most of my stuff is actually at 23.976 but I notice that some of my SD content is at 29.97 which I think is a normal NTSC resolution. This, when played back comes up at 23.976 so all I can figure is that Nvidia does not provide a driver that by default supports this resolution.

Is your 29.97 fps content interlaced? If so, it might actually be telecined content which was originally at 23.976 fps [ http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...s-to-29-97-fps ]. In this case, your player is doing the right thing by removing the duplicate frames and presenting it at the original frame rate (What player and renderer are you using to observe this?)
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post #237 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

Is your 29.97 fps content interlaced? If so, it might actually be telecined content which was originally at 23.976 fps [ http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...s-to-29-97-fps ]. In this case, your player is doing the right thing by removing the duplicate frames and presenting it at the original frame rate (What player and renderer are you using to observe this?)

Hi Ganesh,

I am observing this in XBMC with the built in player. I will keep playing and see what I can figure out. I would still like to get dialed in closer to 23.976 but I am getting out of my depth trying to tune it further so what I am getting now will probably have to suffice u til some hardware vendor gives us 24P playback as good as we get from a cheap BD deck.

Some of my SD stuff got re processed through handbrake and converted from MPEG2 to H264 so that could play a role too.
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post #238 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

1/(23.976-23.975) = 1000s/frame = 16m 40s/frame drop.

Codec info can't tell the frame rate of a SD content that the video renderer receives from the video decoder. SD content in NTSC is usually 480i59.94 (or 29.97 fps). But the final frame rate is

- film: 23.976 fps after IVTC (aka film-mode deinterlacing)
- video: 59.94 fps after deinterlacing (video-mode deinterlacing).

Thanks for showing me how to work out the math it looks like two frame drops (and one noticeable one) in 40 minutes fits

Out of curiosity can reclock allow for audio bit streaming when it sets playback to 24.000?
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post #239 of 1176
10/10/11 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlievoviii View Post

I totally disagreed wiht you. playing 23.976 movies using 60hz is now way is as smooth as playing it at 23.796.

How do you see the imperfect 23.9768 Hz is smoother than 60.000 Hz at film playback (apart from 3:2 judder)? (Assuming you mean "no" by "now".)
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post #240 of 1176
10/10/11 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Out of curiosity can reclock allow for audio bit streaming when it sets playback to 24.000?

If you are talking about media adaptation (i.e. increase media playback rate to the video clock so that there won't be any frame drop/repeat), then yes, bitstreaming works, but you will have more trouble (not just audio frame drop but also video frame drop). For media adaptation, you should stick to LPCM (this is now so easy thanks to LAV Audio Decoder + dtsdecoderdll.dll).

BTW 23Hz media adaptation is also possible (i.e. media playback rate is adjust to the "23Hz" video clock [23.975 or whatever]). This is more gentle to hardware.
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