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Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 15

post #421 of 1265
2/17/12 at 7:48am
Yes Andy, please elaborate. Is this something I want to load on my SandyBridge, or will it make no difference? I had done the update using the MB jumper method described on MissingRemote a while back. It allowed me to set 23.xxx where it hadn't prior. My Lumagen reports close to correct incoming frame rates now, but it does not go to 3 digits, so not sure how close mine is now.
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post #422 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Yes Andy, please elaborate. Is this something I want to load on my SandyBridge, or will it make no difference? I had done the update using the MB jumper method described on MissingRemote a while back. It allowed me to set 23.xxx where it hadn't prior. My Lumagen reports close to correct incoming frame rates now, but it does not go to 3 digits, so not sure how close mine is now.

In previous driver revs I've seen rates in the 23.972-23.975 range. On some systems the thousands place drifts a bit, but most of the ones I've tested lock in at 23.973 (what was initially reported at SNB's launch when UAC was disabled) after a few seconds of playback.

I only tested it on one system (my current production HTPC) and the results were no different from what I've seen previously. I don't think we should expect that this will get better when Intel has stated clearly that it's a HW limitation in the current chipset and will continue to be on the next generation as well. I remember reading some encouraging claims made at IDF around this issue, but we'll have to wait and see if they were valid or just talk.
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post #423 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:05am
Thanks Andy. Much appreciated.
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post #424 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:06am
I don't really care if the frame rate drifts, actually. I'm pretty happy with it the way it is and haven't had to spend additional $$ on a video card and time setting it up.

This driver works fine for me.

I guess I'm a videophile but not a junkie!! In other words, I enjoy HD content, don't get me wrong, I'm just not going to spend in inordinate amount of time tweeking it. There's more to life and my time is limited.
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post #425 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I don't really care if the frame rate drifts, actually. I'm pretty happy with it the way it is and haven't had to spend additional $$ on a video card and time setting it up.

This driver works fine for me.

I guess I'm a videophile but not a junkie!! In other words, I enjoy HD content, don't get me wrong, I'm just not going to spend in inordinate amount of time tweeking it. There's more to life and my time is limited.

I agree. Looks great on my setup. Sometimes I just want to enjoy the #$%#%@ movie.
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post #426 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I don't really care if the frame rate drifts, actually. I'm pretty happy with it the way it is and haven't had to spend additional $$ on a video card and time setting it up.

This driver works fine for me.

I guess I'm a videophile but not a junkie!! In other words, I enjoy HD content, don't get me wrong, I'm just not going to spend in inordinate amount of time tweeking it. There's more to life and my time is limited.

TBC, my comments shouldn't be interpreted to imply negative judgement, nitpick, or otherwise disparage anyone who is happy with this platform (or any other platform for that matter); just as a statement of fact intended only to address unsubstantiated claims made earlier in the thread.

FWIW, I use SNB (i5-2390T + DH67CF) in my personal system because IMO this problem is not significant enough to outweigh issues present in the alternatives. That is not to say that others don't have validity for selecting those options given their requirements and preferences, it's just not the right choice for me given mine.
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post #427 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:23am
Here:

1/(23.976-23.97251) sec = 4.78 min

That is, there is a frame drop every ~5 minutes, that's not much different from the previous drivers.
LL
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post #428 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

TBC, my comments shouldn't be interpreted to imply negative judgement, nitpick, or otherwise disparage anyone who is happy with this platform (or any other platform for that matter); just as a statement of fact intended only to address unsubstantiated claims made earlier in the thread.

FWIW, I use SNB (i5-2390T + DH67CF) in my personal system because IMO this problem is not significant enough to outweigh issues present in the alternatives. That is not to say that others don't have validity for selecting those options given their requirements and preferences, it's just not the right choice for me given mine.

I wasn't thinking that at all. I was just stating my opinion on the whole issue so it's all good! I never even felt that way at all. Sometimes when you type something it comes off that way because you cannot see that I am kidding by the look on my face.

:grouphug:
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post #429 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Here:

1/(23.976-23.97251) sec = 4.78 min

That is, there is a frame drop every ~5 minutes, that's not much different from the previous drivers.

Which is hardly noticable, if at all.
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post #430 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:46am
Yup. It's beyond me why people want to bother with this (practically non-)issue constantly.
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post #431 of 1265
2/17/12 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Which is hardly noticable, if at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yup. It's beyond me why people want to bother with this (practically non-)issue constantly.

+1, +1

I just have hoped, and continue to hope, that this "issue" doesn't keep people from exploring the wonderful world of HTPC.

It seems like people particularly on AVS act like your HTPC just isn't even usable if your don't have rock solid 23.976.
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post #432 of 1265
2/17/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

+1, +1

I just have hoped, and continue to hope, that this "issue" doesn't keep people from exploring the wonderful world of HTPC.

It seems like people particularly on AVS act like your HTPC just isn't even usable if your don't have rock solid 23.976.

+1
do we even know if standalone players give unwavering 23.976? i've never seen that in any benchmarks...
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post #433 of 1265
2/17/12 at 9:46am
Can someone summarize this long thread for me? I have an AMD card, can I simply go into cat control center and set my refresh rate to 24hz when I watch my MKV's and Blue Ray discs? I assume there will be a dropped frame now and then which my eyes may not even see since I dont want to waste the energy picking this apart?

Should I be choosing 23hz? both 24 and 23hz are available... I dont want a 3rd party utlity that will get me to 23.97blah blah blah adding yet another complexity layer...
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post #434 of 1265
2/17/12 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

+1
do we even know if standalone players give unwavering 23.976? i've never seen that in any benchmarks...

Good point.
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post #435 of 1265
2/17/12 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

do we even know if standalone players give unwavering 23.976? i've never seen that in any benchmarks...

SA player has just one clock on a SoC, so there is no problem (even if the clock is not precisely 23.976Hz), media playback, video and audio are in perfect sync. PC has multiple clocks (system, video, audio) that could cause a problem. PC + ReClock will give a perfect solution.
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post #436 of 1265
2/17/12 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshster View Post

Should I be choosing 23hz?

23Hz. 23 is what Windows uses to represent 23.976Hz.
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post #437 of 1265
2/17/12 at 10:36am
Thank you!
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post #438 of 1265
3/17/12 at 6:35am
Lets get one thing straight No one can do 24p ?

Look lets face it the SNB is a good cpu but the whole video issue is a well kept secret. I use to go over reviews all night before i got the the i5 2500k.

In all cases maybe a lawsuit is in order because no were was i told that this would not do what it should.

My laptop an old toshiba with a pentium t3200 that can play any video through its own screen or my 42inch using the vga for graphics and the 3.5mm to a stereo for audio maybe not HD but it was not sold as been able to do this.

On the other hand the i5 amongst other features has lip sync LOL not when your having frame issues.

My point is if you buy a product it should do what you expect if it did not you would return it, if the problem is widespread it gets recalled (B3 anyone).

NOW whats more alarming is that a graphics card may not solve this problem WAH ?
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post #439 of 1265
3/17/12 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
I don't know why your anger is directed at Intel. Like I have said they all have some issues with 24p.

I have never had lip sync issues with any of the 3 vendors, btw.
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post #440 of 1265
3/17/12 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Here:

1/(23.976-23.97251) sec = 4.78 min

That is, there is a frame drop every ~5 minutes, that's not much different from the previous drivers.

Off topic, but I noticed that your OSD is reporting zero dropped frames. I always get a few from right when I start the movie. It's not an issue for me, just curious as to how you overcame that.
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post #441 of 1265
3/18/12 at 7:14am
I'm having lipsysnc issues on DVD only. BRD appers to be OK, but any DVD it gets way off. Usually a pause and restart corrects it. But I have to do that a lot. I'm using TMT5 invoked from MyMovies on W764, intel SB.
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post #442 of 1265
3/18/12 at 7:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I'm having lipsysnc issues on DVD only. BRD appers to be OK, but any DVD it gets way off. Usually a pause and restart corrects it. But I have to do that a lot. I'm using TMT5 invoked from MyMovies on W764, intel SB.

I don't playback from any physical discs anymore.
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post #443 of 1265
3/18/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I don't playback from any physical discs anymore.

Sorry, I wasnt' clear. I'm having the issue with RIPPED DVD's played from my server's hard drives.

If I play a physical disc I use my Oppo which is always flawless. Due to the convenience, I use MyMovies on a WHS.

The PC client is a i5 2400 SB with an intel MB.

Compared to the Oppo, it is a PITA to deal with all of the Windows issues. But the MyMovies convenience weighs in favor of the HTPC. Working OK with BRD, but ripped DVD's I've played have always had lipsync problems. And they are WAY off, not just a little.

My video is set to 23hz (Lumagen reports 23.98), the DVD source is 29.xx IIRC, maybe that's part of the problem. But it's a pain to switch frame rates on the HTPC for every video type. Not to mention the weak user experience of having an 11' wide screen blink on and off while the PC does it's switch. And I don't know how to do it from a remote so I have to get out the mouse to deal with it. But I'm getting off topic.

TMT5 was supposed to auto-switch framerates, but I've never seen it do it. I have it turned on in settings. Not sure who to blame for the (lack of DVD) lipsync, the PC or TMT. I woudl like to correct it though as DVD's are almost unwatchable via the HTPC which is setup for 23.98 BRD.

It's issues like these that turn people off to HTPCs. I'm plenty PC literate. I bought the lastest and greatest hardware (I thought) to try and alleviate these issues on the front end. But unfortunately I find it an ongoing challenge to make the thing work right. At least make it work as seamless as any other rack mounted HT component I have and control through a control system, not with a keyboard, and mouse.



Thanks,
Scott
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post #444 of 1265
3/18/12 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Sorry, I wasnt' clear. I'm having the issue with RIPPED DVD's played from my server's hard drives.

If I play a physical disc I use my Oppo which is always flawless. Due to the convenience, I use MyMovies on a WHS.

The PC client is a i5 2400 SB with an intel MB.

Compared to the Oppo, it is a PITA to deal with all of the Windows issues. But the MyMovies convenience weighs in favor of the HTPC. Working OK with BRD, but ripped DVD's I've played have always had lipsync problems. And they are WAY off, not just a little.

My video is set to 23hz (Lumagen reports 23.98), the DVD source is 29.xx IIRC, maybe that's part of the problem. But it's a pain to switch frame rates on the HTPC for every video type. Not to mention the weak user experience of having an 11' wide screen blink on and off while the PC does it's switch. And I don't know how to do it from a remote so I have to get out the mouse to deal with it. But I'm getting off topic.

TMT5 was supposed to auto-switch framerates, but I've never seen it do it. I have it turned on in settings. Not sure who to blame for the (lack of DVD) lipsync, the PC or TMT. I woudl like to correct it though as DVD's are almost unwatchable via the HTPC which is setup for 23.98 BRD.

It's issues like these that turn people off to HTPCs. I'm plenty PC literate. I bought the lastest and greatest hardware (I thought) to try and alleviate these issues on the front end. But unfortunately I find it an ongoing challenge to make the thing work right. At least make it work as seamless as any other rack mounted HT component I have and control through a control system, not with a keyboard, and mouse.



Thanks,
Scott

I'm pretty sure its the fact you are trying to play them at 23hz. If you use madvr it can switch the refresh rate for you.
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post #445 of 1265
3/18/12 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post

I'm pretty sure its the fact you are trying to play them at 23hz. If you use madvr it can switch the refresh rate for you.

I beleive that. So I went to have a quick peek at madvr.

Took abotu 3 clicks to run into this recent post on it's support thread:

Quote:


"I had never played DVDs with MPC before and had been using PowerDVD for this purpose thus far but I decided to give MPC a try, yet I can't seem to be able to get the configuration right.

If I use Dscaler for decoding, VMR works fine, Haali renderer crashes or hangs MPC right away, madVR starts playing the file with no video but upon seeking, the video appears and continues playing but MPC completely become unresponsive. On the other hand, if I use ffdshow or MPC's internal MPEG2 decoder, VMR and Haali work fine but in case of madVR, after a maximum of 5 seeks, MPC becomes unresponsive again while the video continues playing fine. I have the same problem on both my desktop which has an ATI VGA and my laptop that has an Nvidia one.

Can somebody tell me whether I'm doing sth wrong or madVR currently has issues with DVD playback?

P.S. My codecs/players are pretty much up to date, maybe just a few builds behind SVN.

followed by
DVD isnt' supported yet (on something).

"

Dscaler, Halirenderer, mpc, fddshow, seeks, etc. A perfect example of why people don't like HTPC's. I just don't have a ton of hours to figure out how to sew all the piece parts together and debug the interrelated issues when they don't work.

I just want a simple implementation of MyMovies and a player that can work with it under windows.
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post #446 of 1265
3/18/12 at 10:30am
Assassin:

You are a well respected HTPC guru. Given that I want to use Mymovies, and my Intel hardware, what do you recommend for playback integration? I'm using TMT5 but certaintly not married to it. I just want a soultion I don't have to babysit, the family can use, thats stable and plays BRD iso's a DVD VIDEO_TS correctly, and as source direct output as is possible with a PC.

Pointers to another thread or how to welcome.
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post #447 of 1265
3/18/12 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Assassin:

You are a well respected HTPC guru. Given that I want to use Mymovies, and my Intel hardware, what do you recommend for playback integration? I'm using TMT5 but certaintly not married to it. I just want a soultion I don't have to babysit, the family can use, thats stable and plays BRD iso's a DVD VIDEO_TS correctly, and as source direct output as is possible with a PC.

Pointers to another thread or how to welcome.

Not to get too off topic but WMC+Mediabrowser is very wife friendly when setup correctly. I use MKV instead of ISO but all you would need to do is use MB as a frontend and then just tell it to launch whatever player you want for your ISO files.
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post #448 of 1265
3/18/12 at 5:38pm
Thanks. But one of my main drivers for MyMovies is it's simple drop and rip functionality. It won't do MKV. I don't have to do anything to get it on the server, cataloged, with all it's coverart and related data. Just stick it in the servers drive. I don't know of any other HTPC solution that easy that also includes the decent user interface for viewing the collection.

Staying on topic, almost, the problem appears to be related to the framerate match or lack thereof. How is the switch from 23.xx (however close one gets it) to 29.xx accomplished with WMC+MB?
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post #449 of 1265
3/18/12 at 7:16pm
The correct refresh rate for (NTSC) DVDs is:

- Movies: 23.976Hz
- Videos: 59.94Hz.
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post #450 of 1265
3/18/12 at 8:03pm
I was just reporting what the MyMovies data refelcted for the movies I've watched. Usually old stuff not on BRD. For example an Old Hitchcock movie "Strangers on Train" said it is NTSC, 29.970 FPS.

Regardless, it's lipsync via my Intel SB outputting 23.98 (Lumagen VP only reports to 2 digits) was way off. And every other DVD source files have been the same. No lipsync issues with BRD iso's. Both BRD and DVD files are set in MyMovies to use TMT5 for playback.
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