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Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 27

post #781 of 1176
8/9/12 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Wait.
What do you mean? You don't notice when they occur?

I'm not sure how to take your response. confused.gif
As proof that some people don't notice.
Or that I really should be seeing a problem.
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post #782 of 1176
8/9/12 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

I'm not sure how to take your response. confused.gif
As proof that some people don't notice.
Or that I really should be seeing a problem.

Sarcasm.
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post #783 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:36pm
That's what I presumed. But with the Frame Rate jumping around maybe a problem should have been visible.

Which data in ctrl+j does indicate how often a frame is dropped?
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post #784 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:37pm
Communities pageful filled by super wise cooly-pooly deeply frustrated nerds, yaaaawn..rolleyes.gif Please press your healthy reset button - where could it be? confused.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

My Frame Rate is 24.001 while the green line is mostly smooth, but it slowly decrease to a certain point ... ...

Forget that but think more about the hardware. Maybe you know somebody who has a newer 120 Hz TV and will be so nice to let you try your setups with it? That would bring you fast experience I think.
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post #785 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

My Frame Rate is 24.001 while the green line is mostly smooth, but it slowly decrease to a certain point & then spikes up & the Frame Rate temporarily changes to 23.925. When the spike moves off the left side of the screen the Frame Rate returns to 24.001. Does that mean I'm never at or near 23.976fps? And if frames are being dropped how can I tell how often that occurs?

you are running with a 60hz refresh rate trying to watch a 23.976 film. Frames drops are the least of your concern. You will have jitters and all sorts of issues. When i watched one movie like that I literally had a headache by the end. When the red and green lines hit, you will have a frame problem, but that assumes they are both straight like they should be.

And for Assassin, I'll repeat again, just because he may not be seeing it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
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post #786 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

you are running with a 60hz refresh rate trying to watch a 23.976 film. Frames drops are the least of your concern. You will have jitters and all sorts of issues. When i watched one movie like that I literally had a headache by the end. When the red and green lines hit, you will have a frame problem, but that assumes they are both straight like they should be.
And for Assassin, I'll repeat again, just because he may not be seeing it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Yeah, I am ignorant I guess.

Hardly. This is one of those arguments that will never be won by anyone.
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post #787 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yeah, I am ignorant I guess.
Hardly. This is one of those arguments that will never be won by anyone.

yes you are apparently, just means you aren't aware of what is happening. even with reclock the occassional glitz can happen as I just tried on my monitor for a test. why people don't just install reclock and have it as close to right is beyond me.
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post #788 of 1176
8/9/12 at 7:58pm
On a tangent, when is home theater equipment going to directly support 120 Hz refresh rates? That would spare the sanity of those of us trying to get 23.976. If we did have 120 Hz support in our video cards, AV receivers, and HDTVs, then even if it were not a perfect multiple of 5*23.976, it would be much closer. Most of the frames would be displayed for 5/120 of a second, but whenever it needed to have a duplicate or dropped frame to keep in lipsync, the difference would be only 1/120 of a second as the oddball frame is displayed for only 6/120 or 4/120 of a second. And really, this isn't completely dropping a frame like it has to with a refresh rate slightly under 23.976; you would still get the frame, but for slightly less time than 5/120 of a second. I know I would have a difficult time seeing that difference, but with everything around 23.976, I do get mildly annoyed when I see dropped or duplicated frames.
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post #789 of 1176
8/9/12 at 8:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

yes you are apparently, just means you aren't aware of what is happening. even with reclock the occassional glitz can happen as I just tried on my monitor for a test. why people don't just install reclock and have it as close to right is beyond me.

No. It means that for my setup with my htpc and my hardware with the way I use my media playback is flawless (for me) and I certainly don't obsess over a bunch of decimals on my screen. And likewise why I don't need reclock which breaks bitstreaming audio.
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post #790 of 1176
8/9/12 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

On a tangent, when is home theater equipment going to directly support 120 Hz refresh rates? That would spare the sanity of those of us trying to get 23.976. If we did have 120 Hz support in our video cards, AV receivers, and HDTVs, then even if it were not a perfect multiple of 5*23.976, it would be much closer. Most of the frames would be displayed for 5/120 of a second, but whenever it needed to have a duplicate or dropped frame to keep in lipsync, the difference would be only 1/120 of a second as the oddball frame is displayed for only 6/120 or 4/120 of a second. And really, this isn't completely dropping a frame like it has to with a refresh rate slightly under 23.976; you would still get the frame, but for slightly less time than 5/120 of a second. I know I would have a difficult time seeing that difference, but with everything around 23.976, I do get mildly annoyed when I see dropped or duplicated frames.

Right. About 1 frame in 7000 frames currently for most users regardless of gpu.
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post #791 of 1176
8/10/12 at 12:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Jriver simply picks the longest track on the track. Often this is not going to cut it, because you end up with a version of the movie with extra scenes or commentary that you don't want.

I watch quite a lot of Blu-rays and i can honestly say that such discs are rather rare. But even if it does happen, switching the title is like 3 button presses with my remote (bring up menu -> select title-> confirm selection). Still prefer this to waiting through the forced trailers and whatnot of the BD.


Re: the real topic.
Fact of the matter is that Americans are mostly ignorant to 3:2 judder because their TVs all used to have that baked in. NTSC is by definition 60Hz, which means on all movie content you get 3:2. Only with newer TVs and HD content, this is slowly changing, but everyone is just used to it by now.
We in Europe are using PAL, which is 50 Hz, and has no 3:2. Motion is smooth (even if speed up a bit from the original), and we therefor do notice such differences more frequently.

Anyway, people coming into such threads here and arguing "its not a problem for me" is just stupid. If its no problem for you, be happy and move on, but your input does not help anyone who sees it as a problem.
It also doesn't help quoting some numbers how insignificant such problems are. There could be one dropped frame over a whole movie, but if you see it, it will still annoy you - at least if you know what just happend, and don't assume the movie is at fault.

Anyhow, i have long stopped bothering with such problems, Bitstreaming has zero advantages so why do it and cause me such grief, rather perform a full decode of all HD audio and use ReClock (or the equivalent feature in JRMC) to just make me forget about any of these issues.
Edited by Nevcairiel - 8/10/12 at 12:20am
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post #792 of 1176
8/10/12 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

you are running with a 60hz refresh rate trying to watch a 23.976 film. Frames drops are the least of your concern. You will have jitters and all sorts of issues. When i watched one movie like that I literally had a headache by the end. When the red and green lines hit, you will have a frame problem, but that assumes they are both straight like they should be.
And for Assassin, I'll repeat again, just because he may not be seeing it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

What happens when playing a standard 23.976 fps DVD on the HTPC and using WMC7 instead of MPC-HC? Or when playing the DVD on a stand alone DVD player? Presuming I'm going to use a 60 Hz HDTV, there will always be 3:2 pulldown, correct?

IOW does WMC7, or a DVD player, do a better job than MPC-HC?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but did playing a 23.976 DVD years ago on a DVD player bother you? Or is this the result of using a HTPC?

My HTPC is primarily a DVR for OTA recording & playback, so a lot of this may or may not apply. But I want to learn what is going on with my equipment & HTPC is fairly new to me.

More to follow.
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post #793 of 1176
8/10/12 at 12:38am
I took an OTA 1080i30 recording from WMC7 & converted it to a DVRMS file.

Using MPC-HC it plays on the AMD PC but not on the G620 HTPC.

The first image shows an error message I get with either PC.

If I click on “close” the AMD PC will continue & play the video. In the lower left corner of the screen it states “Playing”. This is the second image but in “Paused” mode.

The G620 HTPC will play for a few seconds with a really screwed up picture & then stop & lock up after about 40 seconds. The audio also stops. However the time status bar keeps moving. The lower left corner of the screen states “Playing [DXVA]”. The third image shows this but in “Pause” mode.

Apart from all the numbers jumping all around, why does one PC play the video but not the other?





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post #794 of 1176
8/10/12 at 1:21am
Don't use MPC-HCs internal decoders for MPEG2-DXVA on Intel, it just doesn't work properly.
If you want proper Hardware Acceleration on SandyBridge Intel GPUs, use LAV Video or ffdshow with the QuickSync decoder.
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post #795 of 1176
8/10/12 at 2:39am
Why does the AMD screen state not using DXVA but the Intel one does? IOW if the AMD did not make that choice why did the Intel?

Unfortunately I'm not that familiar with decoders. I've played with ffdshow, but it's been a long time ago. I'm just not sure how or why a video works with one but not another.

One thing I noticed when playing the DVRMS file with MPC-HC, next to "Playing" in the lower left corner of the scrreen is an icon which looks like a "Green Button" icon. Other video formats appear to use a different icon.

Obviously WMC7 plays the video. But how does it compare to MPC-HC in regards to playing the proper frame rate? All or most of the comments are about ctrl+j and the figures it displays. Maybe MPC-HC indicates a frame rate that is not correct. But how would you know what WMC7 is doing?
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post #796 of 1176
8/10/12 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

What happens when playing a standard 23.976 fps DVD on the HTPC and using WMC7 instead of MPC-HC? Or when playing the DVD on a stand alone DVD player? Presuming I'm going to use a 60 Hz HDTV, there will always be 3:2 pulldown, correct?
IOW does WMC7, or a DVD player, do a better job than MPC-HC?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but did playing a 23.976 DVD years ago on a DVD player bother you? Or is this the result of using a HTPC?
My HTPC is primarily a DVR for OTA recording & playback, so a lot of this may or may not apply. But I want to learn what is going on with my equipment & HTPC is fairly new to me.
More to follow.

playing in a standard DVD player was not a problem, that appeared to work correctly, certainly their wasn't jitter like with the HTPC at 60hz. When I burned discs before moving to htpc the software had the option for 3:2 when burning so I"m guessing that made the difference.
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post #797 of 1176
8/10/12 at 4:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

I watch quite a lot of Blu-rays and i can honestly say that such discs are rather rare. But even if it does happen, switching the title is like 3 button presses with my remote (bring up menu -> select title-> confirm selection). Still prefer this to waiting through the forced trailers and whatnot of the BD.
Re: the real topic.
Fact of the matter is that Americans are mostly ignorant to 3:2 judder because their TVs all used to have that baked in. NTSC is by definition 60Hz, which means on all movie content you get 3:2. Only with newer TVs and HD content, this is slowly changing, but everyone is just used to it by now.
We in Europe are using PAL, which is 50 Hz, and has no 3:2. Motion is smooth (even if speed up a bit from the original), and we therefor do notice such differences more frequently.
Anyway, people coming into such threads here and arguing "its not a problem for me" is just stupid. If its no problem for you, be happy and move on, but your input does not help anyone who sees it as a problem.
It also doesn't help quoting some numbers how insignificant such problems are. There could be one dropped frame over a whole movie, but if you see it, it will still annoy you - at least if you know what just happend, and don't assume the movie is at fault.
Anyhow, i have long stopped bothering with such problems, Bitstreaming has zero advantages so why do it and cause me such grief, rather perform a full decode of all HD audio and use ReClock (or the equivalent feature in JRMC) to just make me forget about any of these issues.

Nev that's not the point that I am trying to make. My issue is with people saying that watching a htpc with this issue is so horrible that it will give you/everyone a "headache". I think we are doing the htpc community a disservice and potentially even keeping some from trying a htpc if someone doesn't mention the counter argument that hundreds/thousands use their htpc everyday and either don't notice or don't worry about this issue.

I will graciously bow out of this discussion for now. I think my and others viewpoint has been made clear enough.
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post #798 of 1176
8/10/12 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Why does the AMD screen state not using DXVA but the Intel one does? IOW if the AMD did not make that choice why did the Intel?
AMD does not support DXVA for MPEG2 in your card. It only started working in the 6000 series and above, so thats why its not using it.

An easy fix would to just turn off the "MPEG-2 (DXVA)" decoder on MPC-HCs internal filter config page.
It'll use software decoding then, the same as your AMD system.
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post #799 of 1176
8/10/12 at 6:06am
Quote:
Don't use MPC-HCs internal decoders for MPEG2-DXVA on Intel, it just doesn't work properly.
If you want proper Hardware Acceleration on SandyBridge Intel GPUs, use LAV Video or ffdshow with the QuickSync decoder.
This statement pins some of the reasons people dont' like HTPCs. And one of the reasons I want a canned professional software package like TMT to properly interface with my hardware. I don't want to be fluent in the under the hood details. But you are compelled to feel like you are not getting the best out of the animal if you are not. This IMO, is a perfect example of where one user is struggling with it and another apparently technical user chimes in with some techgreek to assist.
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post #800 of 1176
8/10/12 at 7:03am
TMT and properly interfacing with Hardware? Did you use that thing? smile.gif

Anyway, MPC-HC is not a player for people that just want an out of the box experience, and anyone using it should know that. There are however plenty players that do offer this.
This whole argument applys to CE devices as well though, plenty people get issues with certain files on their devices, and have to hunt for firmware updates in support forums, so its really not much different.
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post #801 of 1176
8/10/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

This whole argument applys to CE devices as well though, plenty people get issues with certain files on their devices, and have to hunt for firmware updates in support forums, so its really not much different.
I don't disagree as a whole becasue I dont' keep up with other players (No need to). But for what it's worth, I have an older Oppo (x83) that has never burped on a bluray, ever, not once. And I have never updated it's FW.

What we need is for someone to come out with a mod that would allow us to pull the source material off a blu-ray image in HD-SDI format. We could feed that to a processor dedicated to the task. It woudl braek every US decoding/crypting rule I expect but I'd buy it in a second.
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post #802 of 1176
8/10/12 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I don't disagree as a whole becasue I dont' keep up with other players (No need to). But for what it's worth, I have an older Oppo (x83) that has never burped on a bluray, ever, not once. And I have never updated it's FW.
What we need is for someone to come out with a mod that would allow us to pull the source material off a blu-ray image in HD-SDI format. We could feed that to a processor dedicated to the task. It woudl braek every US decoding/crypting rule I expect but I'd buy it in a second.

JVB Digital could probably come up with the HD-SDI modification you describe http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp
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post #803 of 1176
8/10/12 at 2:15pm
Interesting that they did it to a Dune. Last time I tried a Dune, they were still too klunky for a Jukebox vs MyMovies on a HTPC. With all it's warts (HTPC), I still use the HTPC jsut to get that MyMovies complete experience (including no muss, no fuss, drop and rip on the server).

Alas, no HTPC in the list. If it were, run it back through a HD-SDI to HDMI converter and you'd be in business. Maybe. Wonder why they haven't tackled the PC?

EDIT: I Stand corrected, I don't think they are modding Dunes, just sellign them. Mods are still just to standalone players.
Edited by GetGray - 8/10/12 at 2:22pm
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post #804 of 1176
8/10/12 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

AMD does not support DXVA for MPEG2 in your card. It only started working in the 6000 series and above, so thats why its not using it.
An easy fix would to just turn off the "MPEG-2 (DXVA)" decoder on MPC-HCs internal filter config page.
It'll use software decoding then, the same as your AMD system.

Thank you for the information.

I turned off the "MPEG-2 (DXVA)" and the DVRMS now plays on the G620.

The only reason I put MPC-HC on the HTPC was in case I wanted to play a few miscellaneous videos that are on my desktop PC, which has both VLC & MPC-HC. I didn’t need both on the HTPC & in a separate thread it seemed MPC-HC was the recommended player so I went with it. Being curious I thought why not use ctrl+j to see what things look like.

Here are two images of the 1080i30 OTA recording in DVRMS format. The first one shows a smooth, but decreasing, green line & a Frame Rate of 30.001 & a Refresh Rate of 60.000xx.

The second image shows a different Frame Rate of 29.882 while the spike is visible on the graph.

I timed how long it took 10 spikes to cross the graph & it was 16.66 seconds per spike. I presume a frame is being added or dropped every 16.66 seconds. Would that be correct?

Why does the Frame Rate stay at 29.882 the whole time the spike is visible? Why not just a quick single frame correction & instantly back to 30.001?

I also changed the Intel graphics from a Refresh Rate of 59 Hz to 60 Hz but nothing appeared any different. Do you know if the 59 Hz setting is really 59.940?



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post #805 of 1176
8/10/12 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Thank you for the information.
I turned off the "MPEG-2 (DXVA)" and the DVRMS now plays on the G620.
The only reason I put MPC-HC on the HTPC was in case I wanted to play a few miscellaneous videos that are on my desktop PC, which has both VLC & MPC-HC. I didn’t need both on the HTPC & in a separate thread it seemed MPC-HC was the recommended player so I went with it. Being curious I thought why not use ctrl+j to see what things look like.
Here are two images of the 1080i30 OTA recording in DVRMS format. The first one shows a smooth, but decreasing, green line & a Frame Rate of 30.001 & a Refresh Rate of 60.000xx.
The second image shows a different Frame Rate of 29.882 while the spike is visible on the graph.
I timed how long it took 10 spikes to cross the graph & it was 16.66 seconds per spike. I presume a frame is being added or dropped every 16.66 seconds. Would that be correct?
Why does the Frame Rate stay at 29.882 the whole time the spike is visible? Why not just a quick single frame correction & instantly back to 30.001?
I also changed the Intel graphics from a Refresh Rate of 59 Hz to 60 Hz but nothing appeared any different. Do you know if the 59 Hz setting is really 59.940?


you have to watch the sync offset number that number is usually slowly increasing or decreasing until it resets it self and then you will see the lines tighten or glitch and you get the frame drop.
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post #806 of 1176
8/11/12 at 12:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Anyhow, i have long stopped bothering with such problems, Bitstreaming has zero advantages so why do it and cause me such grief, rather perform a full decode of all HD audio and use ReClock (or the equivalent feature in JRMC) to just make me forget about any of these issues.

Bitstreaming - with good equipment and good ears you never more wanna live without it smile.gif

ReClock - does only change the audio. People with frequent drops will keep them. (Only cause it sounded like panacea as you wrote it wink.gif).
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post #807 of 1176
8/11/12 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaubart View Post

Bitstreaming - with good equipment and good ears you never more wanna live without it smile.gif

It does not matter to the audio if its decoded in the PC or in the Receiver. The result is the same. Anything else is just a myth.

*Assuming of course you have the PC setup properly to deliver untouched PCM and have full HD decoding capabilities for all formats.
Also there are some crap receivers which treat Multichannel PCM differently then Bitstreaming, but you said good equipment, so that we can rule out wink.gif
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post #808 of 1176
8/11/12 at 2:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

It does not matter to the audio if its decoded in the PC or in the Receiver. The result is the same. Anything else is just a myth.

Ok, lately I had only a rel. short disappointing séance with ReClock but I swear it cuoldn't deliver some existential bitstreaming could - forgotten what.. certain HD audio formats and their channels, sth. like that..

As I'm desperately trying to get this myth audio drift - no chance by now smile.gif, here* But I must confess - never was interested in a HTPC, what ever that may be.. only have some laptops and desktops.
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post #809 of 1176
8/11/12 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yet that's been exactly the comparison for as long as I can remember, that an HTPC can match/best just about anything out there, for way less money.

Not every HTPC, in every permutation, can match anything available. With the right HW/SW you can get pretty close, even very expensive configurations. Over time (assuming the current trajectory holds) I expect that at some point it will be just as good as boutique high-end VP.

I haven't played with VXP so I can't say how it stacks up against what I've seen on HTPC specifically. It would surprise me if it was exponentially better, but I guess it's possible. What I can say is that I have yet to see anything that has a clear advantage over what a properly setup HTPC can do. I haven't evaluated any truly high-end kit, but if it takes a $20K device to reach the point where differences are noticeable, I'm not sure it matters that much.
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post #810 of 1176
8/12/12 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Not every HTPC, in every permutation, can match anything available. With the right HW/SW you can get pretty close, even very expensive configurations. Over time (assuming the current trajectory holds) I expect that at some point it will be just as good as boutique high-end VP.

I think that's going to require a fundamental change/shift in how video is handled in the OS though, which seems unlikely.
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