Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 30

24.000FPS = 24Hz
23.976FPS = 23Hz

That said, HD2000 can't handle madVR. You're better off using EVR.

I ran HD2000 with MadVR for months until I ran into the intel GPU not being able to process frames fast enough for 720p30/29. That is when i got the GT 430. So it can handle MadVR but not for all content.. With 1080p24/23 it worked fine.

Your assumption that "any high-end display" passes full 4:4:4 RGB is incorrect. But if you have such a display (or any computer monitor), then yes a HTPC will give you good result with no additional scaling artifacts. As an example, the highest rated TV's this year (and previous years) were often Panasonic plasmas. These TV's have never supported 4:4:4 input without downscaling to 4:2:2 internally. Their flagship VT model this year finally has a mode they call "Pure Direct" but even that still shows some scaling artifacts with 4:4:4 input. There are other TV's with similar limitations because processing a 4:2:2 YUV signal is cheaper inside the TV. As you've pointed out, most external video processors also can't handle 4:4:4 internally. In such cases you're better off sending 4:2:2 YUV from your source - something HTPC's were not designed for.

If I understand correctly, your saying that most TVs convert RGB -> 4:2:2 YUV -> RGB? Also, if the display is provided a 1080p RGB frame what additional scaling needs to be done?

Do you have a test pattern that demonstrates this issue?

Don't need a test pattern. Just put up some fine text on a panny plasma. Issue is pretty obvious. I think LCD's are less affected because many of them are essentially large computer monitors which allow their processing to be bypassed when using a 4:4:4 RGB input. But I've seen this problem on some Sharp LCD's too. The scaling I'm referring to is upsampling/downsampling the chroma during some of the conversions going on. If you can keep things 4:2:2 YUV from the player, then you only have 1 upscale from the 4:2:0 disc until you hit the TV's processor output which I assume will eventually convert to 4:4:4 to drive the panel in RGB. But at least there is no chroma downsampling anywhere along this path compared to using a HTPC as input.

As has been pointed out by others in this thread (and I agree with), HTPC works best when it's the only processor being used. It's not ideal with either an external or internal processor feeding the TV.

Test patterns exist for a reason - to make problems (or the lack thereof) very obvious. I've never noticed an "obvious" chroma problem on my VT25 when connected to a device sending RGB. TBC, I'm not saying that this issue (RGB->YUV->RGB conversion) doesn't exist, just that it's not obvious to me with normal content (maybe because I don't know what to look for).

I have plenty of hardware on hand to reproduce an issue like this, I just need a reliable set of conditions to do it.

You won't see these problems when watching movies or the like. You only ever notice it when using a big TV for browsing or other text-viewing.

Here is a quick set of tests to confirm 4:4:4 pass-through:
I know that my Sony TV can do it in Game/Graphics mode, however i prefer running in Cinema mode for better movie experience.
Some people also claim that it breaks for them when they use HDMI Audio, but works without Audio, however i could never substantiate these claims.

So pretty much the activities you can only do when using a PC

Thanks!

It was not an assumption, it was a statement. If your display cannot resolve full 4:4:4 1080p, it is not a high-end display.

And you are absolutely not better off outputting 4:2:2 from the HTPC—or 4:4:4. You want RGB, period. Almost any external signal conversion is going to do the RGB > YUV conversion with higher quality than your video card’s output. It’s one area where they are seriously lacking. (the YV12 > RGB conversion inside madVR is a completely separate process, and done with greater precision than most external devices)
You won’t see it if you are using an external video processor, or likely even a stand-alone Blu-ray player, as most probably process in 4:2:2.

madVR’s chroma upsampling from 4:2:0 to RGB is so good, that there is a measurable loss of image quality when that image is downconverted to 4:2:2

You'll only really see it when the image was 4:4:4 in the first place. So only gaming, image viewing or browsing and other PC tasks.
To that end, most people won't be able to see it on moving content anyway, which is why the industry can get away with even 4:2:0 for video.

Unless I'm missing something, RGB (PC) seems to be clearer than YCbCr 4:2:2 (Sigma streamer) on my TV.

chroma.jpg 259k .jpg file

..you're so diplomatic..
The 4:4:4 thing important for calib-pro's on calib-monitors but any HTPC users I suspect only being so proud finally having found the right menu, must yell it out, face to face with the wonder, tears in the eyes... Unable to notice the TV meanwhile having lost most of his advanced smooth sync and colour correction features...

As I must say having a good TV madVR does not much more then heating the CPU - some like it hot, me not - help grandma - they're gonna beat me..

If your TV downconverts everything to 4:2:2 internally, you are probably going to be missing out on a lot of madVR’s image quality advantages. If you are using a Plasma TV, even one that can display 4:4:4/RGB, doubly so. In those cases you are probably fine using 10-bit internal precision rather than 16-bit, and reducing the chroma scaling quality. (luma scaling should still be an obvious advantage, especially with the anti-ring options)

But there are still other advantages offered by madVR—the 3DLUT/Gamma capabilities, resolution switching, deinterlacing, and madVR + ReClock is the only combination I’ve had on my PC that results in perfect playback without any dropped/repeated frames, audio pops & clicks or other sync issues. Perfectly smooth playback every time.

It's this TV here in 46" with different calibs for different usage. I'm pretty happy with it working each day to customize to new situations. 4:2:2 internally no idea but switching to PC mode presenting a clean 4:4:4 -> missing all White Balance, Black Levels and much more fine adjustments + Motion Plus. So 4:4:4 is kind of uninteresting. As no miracle happening and marginal influence on the poor picture.


Just finished my tests with madVR + ReClock. They have not the slightest influence on dropped/repeated frames caused by inaccurate V-Sync ! Simply play 23.976-Slices by setting the graphics card to 24Hz (not 23) and you will see the jumps every 40 seconds anyway if madVR, ReClock or EVR Sync are used or not.

Without madVR + ReClock no dropped/repeated frames, audio pops & clicks or other sync issues playing any frequencies here on a Ati Mobility HD5850 over HDMI to Denon AVR (Bitstreaming) to Samsung TV -> it's Motion Plus Time..
_
Edited by blaubart - 8/23/12 at 1:26pm

Sorry to hear that you can’t adjust picture settings when displaying full 4:4:4/RGB, but this is what I mean about them not being high end displays. If it’s compromising on image quality to achieve 4:4:4, or simply processing in 4:2:2, then it’s not high-end in my opinion.
It sounds like either:

1. Your dropped/duplicated frames are caused by your system not being able to handle your madVR/ReClock settings.
2. Your display does not correctly sync with 24Hz.
3. You have a configuration error with madVR and/or ReClock causing it to stutter.

When properly set up on a machine that can handle it, you will never see a dropped/duplicated frame with madVR + ReClock, as the video’s frames are presented at the video card’s refresh rate, and audio is upsampled to match.
Definitely sounds like a configuration error, or simply that your hardware cannot handle madVR+ReClock. (definitely a configuration error if you are using ReClock and Bitstreaming)

Even with almost exact timings from the video card—I’m talking 24.0000_Hz and a 24fps native source, there will always be dropped/duplicated frames, causing stutter.
The only other alternatives are to present frames at the refresh rate without using ReClock, which will give you smooth video, but gives you a variable audio sync, where it will drift out of sync over time, or to drop/duplicate audio frames to keep it in sync with the video, causing pops/clicks rather than stutter.

Not all picture settings only many for me important advanced sub menu's. Which one high-end is yours?


Thank you, finally somebody explaining sth. concrete! But is not such a XMBC thing not using directshow?

Just reinstalled madVR telling him that I have a receiver and a digital TV.
- playing 23.976-Slices @ 24Hz.
- Ctrl-J says - "1 frame repeat every 41.xx seconds"
- 23.976-Slices ticker shows the jump every 41.xx seconds

so what should I set now in madVR to get ->> " the video’s frames presented at the video card’s refresh rate" - to never see a dropped/duplicated frame?
_
Edited by blaubart - 8/23/12 at 3:55pm

The "D" series samsung TV is listed as one of the TV's that handles 4:4:4. I actually have the 55" version of this TV. This TV can be configured to be a regular RGB 0-255 LCD monitor (by using the HDMI "normal" setting in Movie Mode). The TV defaults to 4:2:2 unless it detects RGB 0-255 over HDMI, then you have the option to change the setting to HDMI normal aka HDMI "full". With Nvidia cards, you have to go one step further and do the RGB 0-255 HDMI registry tweak to get the full RGB 0-255 scale. Without doing these steps, you're not going to get true RGB 0-255.

When calibrated right, this TV is actually works much better as a PC monitor than my Panasonic plasma under many circumstances; especially if you plan to use this TV as a normal RGB LCD monitor with normal room lighting conditions. I actually prefer this LCD TV for 3D bluray over plasma due to how bright and vibrant it can be even with shutter based 3D glasses.

This TV is extremely sensitive to timing from your display card when using it's Automotion plus feature. I output all bluray content at 24.000fps/24.00hz with automotion plus set to max to remove motion-blur; while turning down the judder removal to very low to prevent soap opera effect. WIth these settings, you can crystal clear video with every progressive frame and zero dropped frames. Audio is resampled to preserve original frame rate of movie and original audio pitch of movie (using reclock). This can be done even on a 6 year old PC with a modern display card.

The tricky part for this TV is when playing back 1080i American premium cableTV content; which switches between soft/hard telecine video. Most display cards have a hard time handling this perfectly; relying on software IVTC such as dscaler IVTC mod mpeg2 decoder or madVR. I use dscaler instead of madvr since my media center app needs it's custom presenter EVR for graphics and menus.

So,you can get very clear RGB 0-255 4:4:4 video without any dropped frames at a perfect restored theatrical 24.000fps for your movies with any modern display card + EVR + reclock without the need for madvr. Same way I do with with a slightly older model. Since bluray is 1080p native and so is this display, no CPU intensive scaling is necessary.

EDIT: One note: It looks like the UExxD8000 model is slightly different than the UNxxD8000 (which is what I have). It looks like the UExxD8000 requires "PC" mode per the 4:4:4 official AVS forum thread mentioned above.

Edited by MKANET - 8/23/12 at 7:03pm

Hey MKANET, thanks for the interesting post!


This seems to be the point, the european UExxD8000 model's "PC" mode has restricted menu's and no more Automotion plus. But I don't miss 4:4:4 at all with this TV as the differences are negligible marginal -> without only pink in pink is a little bit less readable but only with some inconvenient settings. And I hate pink anyway

The other point here in this forum seems to be an enormous american-european gradient in the ability to notice slight judders. As I'm really not taking that too serious I nevertheless insist on a little bit more science. So I do not believe that madVR is really able to perform "the video’s frames presented at the video card’s refresh rate" till somebody proves the contrary as I do not have problems with any soap opera effect
-> the very slight judder in cinemas is not comparable to any judder a TV produces. As we're not talking about silent movies era.

Setting the graphics card's HDMI output to RGB 4:4:4 and HDMI Black Level to "normal" (or "low") unfortunately does not result in the Samsung performing the 4:4:4. Needs additionally the HDMI input renamed to "PC".
Are you really sure the UNxxD8000 performing the 4:4:4 without setting "PC" + marginal menu's left - or did you just forget the 4:4:4 test *here*? As I do not find this mentioned anywhere in your "Official Samsung UNXXD8000 Owners' Thread".

That's true.


"zero dropped frames" - no, they are there believe me, every ~40sec playing 23.976 bluray's @24Hz. As always.. But hard to see in movies, only during long pannings. But apparently not for Americans..
So try the 23.976-Slices, should help.

Still can't find any audio drift. Just played a 2 hour 23.976 m2ts @24Hz over Denon AVR (bitstreaming DTS-HD MA) to Samsung TV. No ReClock or anything else. Movie's last scene perfect lip-sync ! What am I doing wrong?

does your TV support 24p? my plasma does as well as my 720p projector. I have to use 1920x1080 resolutions on the video card though as it won't output that at 1280x720. if the tv supports it, i'm pretty sure the graphics card you are using should be able to. otherwise you are never going to have good playback.

My TV does not support 24p. Per the manual: 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i. And there is nothing to be found in any menu setting. In fact there are no settings for any resolutions.

The PC's integrated Intel graphics panel recognizes the display as a Sony TV and gives setting choices for 720p at 59 or 60 HZ and 1080i at 29 or 30 Hz. That's it.

For Blu-ray discs I use a stand alone Blu-ray player.

But I was wondering if a video card would make any difference when playing a regular DVD which contains a 24 fps movie or when watching an OTA broadcast or recording of a program with 24p content.

sounds like a better video card would help you, unless the tv is real old, it probably supports 24hz. on my gt430 card when using my 720p plasma as well as my 720p projector I can select 1080p resolutions and it just gets scaled down at the tv or projector

It sounds like you are playing 24/1.001 content at 24Hz without using ReClock.

I am extremely sensitive to dropped/duplicated/delayed frames.

To put this in context, I do not even perceive 24p to produce smooth motion on any display, including CRT (at 48/72Hz) and OLED.

So if there is any kind of additional stutter, I notice it immediately. MadVR + ReClock is the only way I have been able to achieve 100% smooth video playback on a PC. Stuttering once every 41 seconds would be immediately apparent.

One thing to note is that some receivers do not support 23.976. I went round and round in circles looking for a cause of stutter in my setup. MadVR was reporting no framedrops and a refresh rate of around 23.9758xx (NVIDIA GT430 Custom res), but my eyes were seeing frame stutters every 41 seconds. I eventually discovered that my receiver re-processes the 23.976 into 24.000 and in the process adding the stutter!! Very annoying.

So, the only way for me is to reclock the 23.976 into 24.000 (I actually use JRMC rather than reclock). But I now get smoothness!

SBR

PS Amp is Arcam AVR600. I've heard reports of some Onkyo amp doing the same.

No, this would result in a repeat every 10 seconds. Here is the simple formula how to calculate the interval of the drops/repeats *link*. I wish renethx would not be on a 'secret mission' since july again..

No, not immediately by watching movies. Happens mostly in long panning scenes but only if you have 'luck'.
You will never do the simple 23.976-Slices @ 24Hz test staring 2-3 minutes at the ticker, right? Here it happens every 41.xx seconds as it should - as it is a test clip extra made for this.

Where you can download it you will see that it i.e. also shows the drops caused by an Ivy HD4000. Theoretically with 23.973 they should come every 5:33 minutes (333.33 seconds) but babgvant reported every ~3.5 minutes. This is not an error but reality as the 23.976-Slices test is not theory but shows the actual reality in your current setup.


@ Sandy B Ridge

Having red a lot about possible errors of all kinds caused by receivers of course I did all the tests by connecting the graphics card -> directly to the TV.
Same results.
The Denon is a 2010 model already having 3D pass through and of course supporting 23.976 and also the 4:4:4 varieties.

I must admit I am having a bit of trouble reading your post and maybe I am misunderstanding you but I agree with Chronoptimist. That frame repeat rate in MadVR is consistent with playing 23.976@24. What is more confusing is the link you point to agrees AND you even seem to agree yourself later in the same post.

If you do not use Reclock or equivalent (JRiver had "Videoclock", MediaPortal has something similar) you will get these repeats when playing back @24Hz.

madVR is IMO rock solid in doing what it says it does.

Puuh, sorry guys!
Coming from tests on a Sandy Bridge HD3000 Laptop with ReClock independend sync problems I (somehow disappointed) never tried ReClock on the other PC with AMD graphics again. As additionally the AMD graphics presenting very good 23.976, 24, 50, 59.xx fps - and anything furthermore does not bother me, no ReClock (and madVR) needed, especially @ Samsung TV with Automotion plus .

Nevertheless I installed now ReClock on the PC with AMD graphics.
Finally the test playing 23.976 @ 24Hz is running clean. The jumps every 41.xx seconds disappeared.

So madVR or any other (EVR) renderer are synchronizing to the steady fixed clock of the audio!
-> obviously - since playing a long 23.976 movie @ 24Hz (or more) not using ReClock it's still running completely lip-sync but with drops/repeats.

So using graphics cards performing inaccurate fps (as most do) -> in this case it's better if the audio is pitched by ReClock convenient to the real V-Sync the graphics card can do.
That's the way how to explain it. Got it now and I hope you can forgive me.
_
Edited by blaubart - 8/29/12 at 7:31am

so if reclock is moving the stuff to 24fps, wouldn't it be better if using reclock to set the refresh rate to 24fps and match it to the 24fps that reclock is setting it to? I haven't tried it as nvidia only allows one custom resolution around 24hz and I'm at 23.97542 with reclock. assuming reclock reads the refresh rate correctly, i get good playback.

I don’t think ReClock has any control over the refresh rate, only the video and audio. The underlying problem is that video card refresh rates tend to fluctuate a bit, and are rarely at exactly the rate you set them to (seems to be more of an issue with 24/1.001 than 24.000) and the video and audio rates are not synchronised. In my case, my display only accepts CEA timings, so I cannot use a custom refresh rate to tweak things. (though 24Hz is very close to 24.00000)

What ReClock does, is measure the current refresh rate, and adjust the video speed so that it matches it. So rather than outputting video at 23.976, it would send the frames at 23.97542fps in your case, and resample the audio so that it stays in sync with the new framerate.

Where ReClock gets interesting, is that it does not require the input to be a close match to the refresh rate. (you can adjust the tolerances) So even if Nvidia/AMD decided they wanted to one-up the other by outputting exact video clocks (to be honest I wonder how good stand-alone devices actually are) ReClock would still have a purpose.

What this means, is that you can use ReClock to sync a 25fps (PAL) film to a 24Hz refresh rate to play back a sped-up European release, at the original 24fps speed. Similarly, you can speed up a 24/1.001fps film (US Blu-ray/telecined DVD) to the original 24fps—or whatever your display is actually running at when you select "24Hz". When playing back films on my HTPC, it gets output at the original 24Hz of the film, whether it’s a PAL 25fps release, an NTSC 23.976fps release, or a Europan 24fps Blu-ray.
Glad you got this sorted, and can see how good it is when ReClock + madVR are working together.

true to a point, i use it for 25fps stuff to slow it down and it works great, but when i had it set to directshow to pickup the refresh rate, it was getting 24hz instead of the 23.97542 and it was dropping frames every 40 seconds. i had to set direct3d to get it to get the right refresh rate.

also right in the reclock settings or the settings i guess when its running, you can see clearly that it says it is setting to 24p so it is speeding it up slightly. and if you don't have it at the correct refresh or a multiple it tells you to put it there.