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Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 33

post #961 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Simply by using an advancedsetting file to determine one or more delays dependant on the fps of the source - http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Userdata/advancedsettings.xml - see video/latency eg: if you are only having issues with 24fps set the level of delay for refresh rate between 23-24fps and leave everything else as default. Properly set-up this will playback files in the 23-24 fps range with the identified delay and all others with none.
This quote from one of the devs on the project is equally relevant

XBMC has 2 problems that really seem to root from the same place. One is audio being way out of sync for almost everyone on 24p in some way or another. For me it was anything but h264 content. AVI movies were constantly out of sync to the point that i just avoided them. most of the people that are saying they have fixed the problem are saying they fixed it by turning off sync to display which of course isn't fixing the problem because now the frames are going to drop instead of it redoing the audio like reclock or videoclock. That would be a red flag to me if people were saying that a feature is broken. And of course the other problem is sync to display won't work correctly with 24p, sometimes it works until it randomly doesn't work.

Worse, why should anyone have to mess with delays or other such nonsense when mpc-hc and every other player on the planet just works at least for basic audio/video sync.
post #962 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

XBMC has 2 problems that really seem to root from the same place. One is audio being way out of sync for almost everyone on 24p in some way or another. For me it was anything but h264 content. AVI movies were constantly out of sync to the point that i just avoided them. most of the people that are saying they have fixed the problem are saying they fixed it by turning off sync to display which of course isn't fixing the problem because now the frames are going to drop instead of it redoing the audio like reclock or videoclock. That would be a red flag to me if people were saying that a feature is broken. And of course the other problem is sync to display won't work correctly with 24p, sometimes it works until it randomly doesn't work.
Worse, why should anyone have to mess with delays or other such nonsense when mpc-hc and every other player on the planet just works at least for basic audio/video sync.

But if we add this advanced settings file that Steelman mentions, do you not think it might fix the problem for 24 on XBMC?
post #963 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

But if we add this advanced settings file that Steelman mentions, do you not think it might fix the problem for 24 on XBMC?

no all that is doing is fixing files that have a constant delay in audio, the sync to video to have it resample audio and not drop frames is broken no matter what you do.
post #964 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

no all that is doing is fixing files that have a constant delay in audio, the sync to video to have it resample audio and not drop frames is broken no matter what you do.

Gee well this is a major problem then with XBMC, why don't they fix it?
Whats the point of recently adding Lossless HD audio when the sync is broken?

It stinks and I hate it the way it is, my sync keeps going out!
post #965 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Gee well this is a major problem then with XBMC, why don't they fix it?
Whats the point of recently adding Lossless HD audio when the sync is broken?
It stinks and I hate it the way it is, my sync keeps going out!

beats me, there have been at least 3 threads, one I started myself explaining the problem, stating it only happens on 24p and got the response was that for the other frame rates like 25fps, you use a multiple of the refresh rate so then it works correctly but since 99% of people can't run 48hz refresh rate, it doesn't work, of course it works with reclock, it works with video clock on jmedia, so obviously it can work. i suggested setting xbmc to look at the refresh rate with d3d instead of directdraw because at least on my system, directdraw pulls 24hz for refresh rate when i'm using 23.97542 which direct3d gets correct. with reclock if i have it use directdraw, reclock gets 24hz and doesn't work correctly. of course no one made the change and i'm not a programmer so i can't test it out.

i tested jriver tonight, it works pretty nicely, the android remote is kind of hard to use though, really not intuitive and i can't find any instructions in case i'm dong anything wrong. other than that, only other thing that sucks is you can't adjust volume from the remote if you use ac3 encoding which sucks for me but shouldn't be an issue for people that don't have a receiver from the stone age like me.
post #966 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

beats me, there have been at least 3 threads, one I started myself explaining the problem, stating it only happens on 24p and got the response was that for the other frame rates like 25fps, you use a multiple of the refresh rate so then it works correctly but since 99% of people can't run 48hz refresh rate, it doesn't work, of course it works with reclock, it works with video clock on jmedia, so obviously it can work. i suggested setting xbmc to look at the refresh rate with d3d instead of directdraw because at least on my system, directdraw pulls 24hz for refresh rate when i'm using 23.97542 which direct3d gets correct. with reclock if i have it use directdraw, reclock gets 24hz and doesn't work correctly. of course no one made the change and i'm not a programmer so i can't test it out.
i tested jriver tonight, it works pretty nicely, the android remote is kind of hard to use though, really not intuitive and i can't find any instructions in case i'm dong anything wrong. other than that, only other thing that sucks is you can't adjust volume from the remote if you use ac3 encoding which sucks for me but shouldn't be an issue for people that don't have a receiver from the stone age like me.

Oh what a problem, I hate the audio sync problem with XBMC, when its good its good, when it goes out its unwatchable!

Sounds like you have been on this treadmill for some time, I'm just new to it and I just cant rely on it. If I cant get a simple fix for it I will end up having to go back to my Oppo BDP-95, at least with the Oppo my audio stays in sync with the video!
post #967 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Gee well this is a major problem then with XBMC, why don't they fix it?
Whats the point of recently adding Lossless HD audio when the sync is broken?
It stinks and I hate it the way it is, my sync keeps going out!
Why not have a read here and ask that question in the correct place - http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=80247&page=31.

And in answer to your question of whether the advancedsetting will fix it or not - I would have thought that was fairly obvious - you stated you had a constant delay, therefore placing an advancedsetting file with that delay, for the files with the fps in question will add that to the playback, fixing your issue. But don't take my word for it - try it for yourself and see - the file can easily be deleted if it doesn't work for you.
post #968 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Why not have a read here and ask that question in the correct place - http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=80247&page=31.
And in answer to your question of whether the advancedsetting will fix it or not - I would have thought that was fairly obvious - you stated you had a constant delay, therefore placing an advancedsetting file with that delay, for the files with the fps in question will add that to the playback, fixing your issue. But don't take my word for it - try it for yourself and see - the file can easily be deleted if it doesn't work for you.

No its not just a constant delay, its all over the place and keeps changing .....
It can be fine one day then all over the place another......
You can start a film and its ok, then out of the blue after 10, 20, 40mins the delay can go out and when its out its horrible!
If you stop a film and restart it the sync can come back in fine.
It is not reliable and consistent with XBMC.

Everything about XBMC I love, just not the audio sync on 24.
post #969 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

No its not just a constant delay, its all over the place and keeps changing .....
It can be fine one day then all over the place another......
You can start a film and its ok, then out of the blue after 10, 20, 40mins the delay can go out and when its out its horrible!
If you stop a film and restart it the sync can come back in fine.
It is not reliable and consistent with XBMC.
Everything about XBMC I love, just not the audio sync on 24.

The problem obviously is that not everyone sees it/ or is perceptable to it - not saying it isn't there, because I had the same issue, though thankfully the introduction of the AE builds rectified it for me - though mine was a steady-state 250ms delay.

Get over to that thread then, the dev DDDamian is trying to narrow down the possibilities and is looking for users exactly like you, who are experiencing issues to troubleshoot and provide details of system specs etc to try and see if there is a common scenario/set-up that is proving problematic.
post #970 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

The problem obviously is that not everyone sees it/ or is perceptable to it - not saying it isn't there, because I had the same issue, though thankfully the introduction of the AE builds rectified it for me - though mine was a steady-state 250ms delay.
Get over to that thread then, the dev DDDamian is trying to narrow down the possibilities and is looking for users exactly like you, who are experiencing issues to troubleshoot and provide details of system specs etc to try and see if there is a common scenario/set-up that is proving problematic.

which one? There are at least 3 threads and as far as I've seen, the only thing anyone is trying to fix is the audio being out of sync by setting delays, no one has actually fixed the sync to display problem or tried to fix it.
post #971 of 1281
Link in post #967
post #972 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Link in post #967

posted again on there, you do realize that thread has been going for 2 years now right?
post #973 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

The problem obviously is that not everyone sees it/ or is perceptable to it - not saying it isn't there, because I had the same issue, though thankfully the introduction of the AE builds rectified it for me - though mine was a steady-state 250ms delay.
Get over to that thread then, the dev DDDamian is trying to narrow down the possibilities and is looking for users exactly like you, who are experiencing issues to troubleshoot and provide details of system specs etc to try and see if there is a common scenario/set-up that is proving problematic.

Thanks for that, have found it, but rob1 says that thread has been going for 2 years and still the sync to audio is still broken.

Most people would never notice it if they are using 50" or less displays, I too would probably be the same. Im on a 142" cinemascope acoustic screen, blow everything up to that size and if the audio sync isn't perfect and constant its horrid to watch. I also believe this is only a 24 problem, maybe many dint use 24 material, it is only recent that XBMC got HD audio so I think we lot might still be a minority.

Anyway looks like I need to troll on the XBMC thread.....
post #974 of 1281
Yes on 135 screen, it's far worse than on my 50 inch I was watching on, any frame drop is easily noticeable
post #975 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by robl45 View Post

posted again on there, you do realize that thread has been going for 2 years now right?
Of course - but what difference does that make? DDDamian has only been around since about April, May and is trying to provide a remedy for those who have the issue.

Quote:
Thanks for that, have found it, but rob1 says that thread has been going for 2 years and still the sync to audio is still broken.

Most people would never notice it if they are using 50" or less displays, I too would probably be the same. Im on a 142" cinemascope acoustic screen, blow everything up to that size and if the audio sync isn't perfect and constant its horrid to watch. I also believe this is only a 24 problem, maybe many dint use 24 material, it is only recent that XBMC got HD audio so I think we lot might still be a minority.

Its been going that long because the majority of users aren't reporting it as an issue and the devs are unable to reproduce (also it was hoped that the introduction of AE which wasn't purely the addition of HD Audio, but a total rewrite of the xbmc Audio Engine, would resolve any issue present) - hence the request for users who have the problem to assist by adding their equipment/sources etc to attempt to narrow down the problem. Dive in and see what happens

I watch the vast majority of content on a Panasonic 65VT30B panel (though have a 120" Screen and JVC DLA X-30 for special screenings), fed from my HTPC (currently with an Nvidia GT430) to an Onkyo 805 feeding 3 KEF T305's, 2 Ceiling B&W rears and a B&W PV1 Sub. All connections via HDMI. I can assure you that audio sync was something I was very aware of in earlier builds and have taken part in the thread linked to, very early in the 2 year period.

I have also tested with an intel i3 and ATI HD5670/5450 cards and all have been rock solid for several months now - the current build version I am using is XBMC 12.0ALPHA4 Git:20120801 - Win7 x86.
Edited by steelman1991 - 9/9/12 at 2:51pm
post #976 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Of course - but what difference does that make? DDDamian has only been around since about April, May and is trying to provide a remedy for those who have the issue.
Its been going that long because the majority of users aren't reporting it as an issue and the devs are unable to reproduce - hence the request for users who have the problem to assist by adding their equipment/sources etc to attempt to narrow down the problem. Dive in and see what happens
I watch the vast majority of content on a Panasonic 65VT30B panel (though have a 120" Screen and JVC DLA X-30 for special screenings), fed from my HTPC (currently with an Nvidia GT430) to an Onkyo 805 feeding 3 KEF T305's, 2 Ceiling B&W rears and a B&W PV1 Sub. All connections via HDMI. I can assure you that audio sync was something I was very aware of in earlier builds and have taken part in the thread linked to, very early in the 2 year period.
I have also tested with an intel i3 and ATI HD5670/5450 cards and all have been rock solid for several months now - the current build version I am using is XBMC 12.0ALPHA4 Git:20120801 - Win7 x86.

I have mentioned things a number of times and even started my own thread, I doubt its just some users, as the thread is pretty long, not to mention the sync to display is actually broken, no getting around that. at any rate, I have gone onto the thread, so we will see what happens. the leaked audio engine build that I used was better with avi sound sync in that at least it was watchable, but still off a little bit. Sync has never been working correctly and needs to work to have decent video. I use the same gt430 card.
post #977 of 1281
Wow this thread is scaring me off from an htpc. I am planning to build one over christmas, after being out of the game since 2004 for some of the hassle and reasons stated. With that said, I came back into this in may, and I have been running a test setup on my pc.

This is not like running the real thing, but I have been watching blurays and such from my test setup on here.

It took about 2 months to iron out the kinks, but so far I have been lucky.

Right now everything works, I am using xbmc with tmt for full blurays. This is the only combo working hassle free for me. I know tmt is a pain to get working, but it has been smooth sailing since (cross my fingers), especially with the very latest version. The prior version I had stuttering with.

A few notes for those of you with issues, i use an ati 5770, security essentials currently goes nuts with tmt, i will probably use something else on my htpc, and also if you set in settings so your card handles brightness and color and contrast, it turned into a nightmare. Once setting catalyst control center to let the player handle brightness and color settings everything played smoothly again.

I consider myself picky, but maybe not as picky as some on here. I also use the 23hz hack, i dont know what 23hz outputs in ati cards, was told on tmt forum its closer to 23.967 then the 24hz or something like that, but all i can say is my blurays look relatively smooth, i also have no audio video sync issues either...

I may return to this thread finding an htpc is simply to much upkeep and going back to a dune or whatever, but so far its been 2 months of playing blurays and some dvd's and i cant say i have encountered an issue. I also have my pc scheduled for automatic reboot at 7 am everyday which helps things as well.. continue to run smoothly.

Yesterday the final piece for me was getting xbmc remote working in tmt. Which it now works in both, i even have a button mapped to a popup menu working in tmt for my blurays.

I do hear some of the arguments, i wish i could get source direct from an htpc, but i just dont think it will ever work, the next solution would be madvr, im hopeful someone will come along integrating it into xbmc. It was close once before.

But i must say I feel quite confident in an htpc today something I could not say 8 years ago.
post #978 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I consider myself picky, but maybe not as picky as some on here. I also use the 23hz hack, i dont know what 23hz outputs in ati cards, was told on tmt forum its closer to 23.967 then the 24hz or something like that, but all i can say is my blurays look relatively smooth, i also have no audio video sync issues either...

Quit reading this thread then and just enjoy your HTPC and your movies then. Quit hitting "ctrl+j" as well.
post #979 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Quit reading this thread then and just enjoy your HTPC and your movies then. Quit hitting "ctrl+j" as well.

These aren't the judders you're looking for.
Move along.
post #980 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

These aren't the judders you're looking for.
Move along.

LOL.

BTW, I've been meaning to update this thread with some interesting results discovered running down something unrelated. Nearly every CE device in my possession outputs YCbCr 4:4:4 and there is no way that I can find to change it. TBC this does not include any mainstream BD decks, but it does include popular HTPC alternatives like the HD300 (which also upconverts bit depth), Dune and ATV among others.
post #981 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


Quit reading this thread then and just enjoy your HTPC and your movies then. Quit hitting "ctrl+j" as well.

best advice ever given!
post #982 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

best advice ever given!

lol,once everything worked as it should, i stopped reading here, but I had to come in just to see what this "best advice" was!

will have to remember all my settings for a reinstall to an SSD soon.
post #983 of 1281
Media player AIOS HD Media Center has 24Hz (23.976) nailed! I've been using it for quite some time comparing it to the results I was receiving with ReClock, AutoFrequency, Cyberlink's PowerDVD 12 Ultra, ArcSoft's TotalMedia Theatre 5, MPC-HC and any other method/program I tried to use to get this to work without jitter, freezing or hiccups, and it is unrivaled! It plays my blu-ray folders pretty good with series discs being the only ones where I have to click within the BDMV folder to the STREAM folder and play the M2TS files directly to accurately playback the series sequence.
post #984 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post

Media player AIOS HD Media Center has 24Hz (23.976) nailed! I've been using it for quite some time comparing it to the results I was receiving with ReClock, AutoFrequency, Cyberlink's PowerDVD 12 Ultra, ArcSoft's TotalMedia Theatre 5, MPC-HC and any other method/program I tried to use to get this to work without jitter, freezing or hiccups, and it is unrivaled! It plays my blu-ray folders pretty good with series discs being the only ones where I have to click within the BDMV folder to the STREAM folder and play the M2TS files directly to accurately playback the series sequence.
http://www.avsforum.com/f/39/networking-media-servers-content-streamers
post #985 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Quit reading this thread then and just enjoy your HTPC and your movies then. Quit hitting "ctrl+j" as well.

Palmstroem, old, an aimless rover,
walking in the wrong direction
at a busy intersection
is run over.

"How," he says, his life restoring
and with pluck his death ignoring,
"can an accident like this
ever happen? What's amiss?

...

And he comes to the conclusion:
His mishap just was an illusion,
for, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.

Christian Morgenstern, "The Impossible Fact" (Palstroem, 1910)
post #986 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

LOL.
BTW, I've been meaning to update this thread with some interesting results discovered running down something unrelated. Nearly every CE device in my possession outputs YCbCr 4:4:4 and there is no way that I can find to change it. TBC this does not include any mainstream BD decks, but it does include popular HTPC alternatives like the HD300 (which also upconverts bit depth), Dune and ATV among others.

That's because all the devices you listed (except ATV) are Sigma based streamers. I'm not aware of any Sigma streamer that outputs anything but 4:4:4 RGB or YCbCr - same as HTPC. The hardware can do it but it only seems to be enabled on dedicated BD players. Same goes for deep color - Hardware supports 30,36,48 bit output but most streamers just use inferior dithered 8-bit output like you get on HTPC. It all comes down to very poor quality firmware on most streamers. Supposedly the higher-end Dune's are better but I've never owned one and can't confirm.
post #987 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

The problem obviously is that not everyone sees it/ or is perceptable to it - not saying it isn't there, because I had the same issue, though thankfully the introduction of the AE builds rectified it for me - though mine was a steady-state 250ms delay.
Get over to that thread then, the dev DDDamian is trying to narrow down the possibilities and is looking for users exactly like you, who are experiencing issues to troubleshoot and provide details of system specs etc to try and see if there is a common scenario/set-up that is proving problematic.

I have tried to join the XBMC thread and have now waited for days for them to approve me, still I have NOTHING from them! I have resent everything three times and still after 4 days Ive never been approved or can post, what sort of a membership is that?
post #988 of 1281
Its been so long since I joined that I can't remember the process - will see if I can PM one of the mods and see what can be done.

Rapallo - PM me here with your log in details for xbmc
post #989 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Hardware supports 30,36,48 bit output but most streamers just use inferior dithered 8-bit output like you get on HTPC. It all comes down to very poor quality firmware on most streamers.

There's no reason to output anything higher than 8-bit per channel since we have access to no video sources with greater than 8-bit per channel information. Now if you've got a high end video processor that support internal operations at greater than 8 bits per channel there's a good case to be made for maintaining the higher precision but I don't think PCs or streamers fall into that category (well at least PCs can't output greater than 8 bit per channel).
post #990 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

That's because all the devices you listed (except ATV) are Sigma based streamers. I'm not aware of any Sigma streamer that outputs anything but 4:4:4 RGB or YCbCr - same as HTPC.

Yes, but it's since most popular HTPC alternatives are Sigma based it's a valid point, no? I don't have anything Realtek based handy, but some other platforms tested include Marvell (YCbCr 4:4:4 12-bit), Roku (RGB 4:4:4), and NETGEAR (xvYCC).

Like I said originally, normal BD decks weren't tested so it's quite possible that they do this part right. More importantly though is why I don't have a regular BD player laying around (which did go unmentioned). Simply put, the base feature set is so lacking that even if it were to get this one thing right the device is mostly useless to me, and I suspect the same is true for most (if not all) of the readers in this forum. We want more than an off-the-shelf system can provide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Supposedly the higher-end Dune's are better but I've never owned one and can't confirm.

I had a call w/ them last week and we talked about this issue, if some players in their lineup support 4:2:2 output they didn't mention it. My understanding is that the firmware is shared across all of their players so it would surprise me if it were true.
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