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AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 8

post #211 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I feel better having just bought a Core i3-2100 for $80. If I'm somehow unhappy with the graphics, I can add a low power graphics card and match whatever Llano can do. And apparently, I have the better CPU on pretty much every important CPU benchmark. Oh, and I don't have to wait another 2-3 months.

I guess I expected better CPU performance here. That said, the gaming performance is best ever for an integrated design. This is probably a good thing in the big picture, even if the hardcore gamer could care less.

$80 plus $50-70 for a gt430, not bad at all. One thing to remember is that a discrete graphics card will push your power consumption up, but yes SB plus gt430 or radeon 6570 is king.

My experience with zacate probably has me more optimistic than a lot of you, so far it has played everything I wanted perfectly. It just requires finding the right software, and Llano is zacate on steroids. The funny thing is that I wont be buying Llano as I plan on eventually using my athlon II/gts450 desktop as my HTPC and getting a SB or Ivy bridge to replace my desktop. Like I said before intel + discrete is the performance king.
post #212 of 880
PC Perspective
x-bit labs

Trinity is the successor to Llano, expected in 2012:

- To compete against Intel Ivy Bridge
- Bulldozer core (instead of the older K10 core)
- VLIW4 GPU architecture (the same as HD 6950/6970, instead of VLIW5)
post #213 of 880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I guess I expected better CPU performance here. That said, the gaming performance is best ever for an integrated design. This is probably a good thing in the big picture, even if the hardcore gamer could care less.

I was well aware of CPU performance. I just expected much better pricing than the ones that have been revealed so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

$80 plus $50-70 for a gt430, not bad at all. One thing to remember is that a discrete graphics card will push your power consumption up, but yes SB plus gt430 or radeon 6570 is king.

True, a discrete card would increase power consumption but the entry-level ones only slightly. That's why I'm waiting for Ivy Bridge for my next refresh. Hopefully, the decrease in power consumption will be enough to offset the additional idle power consumption a discrete graphics card will bring. It doesn't hurt that in all likelihood, Ivy Bridge might actually have graphics performance close to Llano, at least if they go at the same rate of improvement they've had since Clarkdale. Of course, Trinity would offer an increase in both CPU and GPU performance. Intel's got their work cut out for them. Ahh... Competition for the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

My experience with zacate probably has me more optimistic than a lot of you, so far it has played everything I wanted perfectly. It just requires finding the right software, and Llano is zacate on steroids.

Netflix HD is already a no go with Zacate. Have to wait for Microsoft and/or Netflix to provide a fix. For integrated subs using WMC's internal player, I use VobSub which also breaks DXVA. Yeah, not a good experience although I already knew that going in from having owned an Atom/ION. I also didn't have a very good experience with the Atom/ION initially (slow Flash, CoreAVC had no CUDA support yet, etc) but those issues are fixed now. Unfortunately, until programmers embrace OpenCL or AMD's Stream, there's no fix for Zacate.
post #214 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I feel better having just bought a Core i3-2100 for $80. If I'm somehow unhappy with the graphics, I can add a low power graphics card and match whatever Llano can do. And apparently, I have the better CPU on pretty much every important CPU benchmark. Oh, and I don't have to wait another 2-3 months.

I guess I expected better CPU performance here. That said, the gaming performance is best ever for an integrated design. This is probably a good thing in the big picture, even if the hardcore gamer could care less.

Hopefully the desktop parts will be available next month, but that's just speculation. The desktop MB Anand tested is obviously no the final released product, but...

WRT adding a video card to the Core i3 or SB Pentium for that matter: do the video ports on the MB/Sandy Bridge continue working? I.e. can you then drive 3 or 4 monitors just by adding a HD6450?
post #215 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

WRT adding a video card to the Core i3 or SB Pentium for that matter: do the video ports on the MB/Sandy Bridge continue working? I.e. can you then drive 3 or 4 monitors just by adding a HD6450?

Yes, no problem.
post #216 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

PC Perspective
x-bit labs

Trinity is the successor to Llano, expected in 2012:

- To compete against Intel Ivy Bridge
- Bulldozer core (instead of the older K10 core)
- VLIW4 GPU architecture (the same as HD 6950/6970, instead of VLIW5)

Good to see that the AFDS is producing info for people other than SW developers.

It's also good to see that they are driving future low-mid range integrated graphics forward: they'll need for the competition.

I wish AMD luck.
post #217 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Yes, no problem.

Thx, that makes it (Sandy Bridge) more attractive.

Any idea at all when the desktop Llanos will start shipping?

The only exact date I've actually seen is in the wikipedia entry for AMD fusion, which lists "Jun 20, 2011". It's in a table with the old part numbers, and I have no idea where it comes from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Fusion

June 20 seems really, really close when Anand doesn't even have a release rev motherboard and the only publicly known MBs in US reviewer hands are that Gigabyte GA-A75-UD4H and the Asrock....
post #218 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

$80 plus $50-70 for a gt430, not bad at all. One thing to remember is that a discrete graphics card will push your power consumption up, but yes SB plus gt430 or radeon 6570 is king.

...

The funny thing is that I wont be buying Llano as I plan on eventually using my athlon II/gts450 desktop as my HTPC and getting a SB or Ivy bridge to replace my desktop. Like I said before intel + discrete is the performance king.

Jeffkro, true on the power, which is why I didn't order the GT430. I'm going to wait and see if I need it to make myself happy, PQ wise.

I imagine sometime next year, I'll evaluate a new MB + chip combo anyway (Ivy Bridge or Trinity) if there's something interesting going there or I decide to upgrade the rig for gaming. I don't doubt I can re-purpose HTPC 1 as an "extender" in some other room.
post #219 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

"expected in 2012" - let's hope so

Quote:


Developers of microprocessors traditionally demonstrate working samples of their products about a year ahead of the commercial release. AMD said that it has had Trinity silicon for several weeks now.

So I would like to see it in H1 2012. BTW IVB is expected in March 2012.
post #220 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

$80 plus $50-70 for a gt430, not bad at all. One thing to remember is that a discrete graphics card will push your power consumption up, but yes SB plus gt430 or radeon 6570 is king.

My experience with zacate probably has me more optimistic than a lot of you, so far it has played everything I wanted perfectly. It just requires finding the right software, and Llano is zacate on steroids. The funny thing is that I wont be buying Llano as I plan on eventually using my athlon II/gts450 desktop as my HTPC and getting a SB or Ivy bridge to replace my desktop. Like I said before intel + discrete is the performance king.

Funny you should mention that - I just ordered a Sandy Bridge & board for my desktop, yanked the video card out of my athlon II HTPC to use with the SB. HTPC is getting along fine with the just the integrated video/athlon II combo.

I was waiting for Llano, thinking it would be a great HTPC, but the prices are a bit higher than I'd have hoped. Then I got this idea to upgrade the old desktop.....
post #221 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

I was well aware of CPU performance. I just expected much better pricing than the ones that have been revealed so far.


True, a discrete card would increase power consumption but the entry-level ones only slightly. That's why I'm waiting for Ivy Bridge for my next refresh. Hopefully, the decrease in power consumption will be enough to offset the additional idle power consumption a discrete graphics card will bring. It doesn't hurt that in all likelihood, Ivy Bridge might actually have graphics performance close to Llano, at least if they go at the same rate of improvement they've had since Clarkdale. Of course, Trinity would offer an increase in both CPU and GPU performance. Intel's got their work cut out for them. Ahh... Competition for the win.


Netflix HD is already a no go with Zacate. Have to wait for Microsoft and/or Netflix to provide a fix. For integrated subs using WMC's internal player, I use VobSub which also breaks DXVA. Yeah, not a good experience although I already knew that going in from having owned an Atom/ION. I also didn't have a very good experience with the Atom/ION initially (slow Flash, CoreAVC had no CUDA support yet, etc) but those issues are fixed now. Unfortunately, until programmers embrace OpenCL or AMD's Stream, there's no fix for Zacate.

The LAVCUVID Decoder works very nicely on ION. I like it so much I pulled the GT430 out a CoreDuo box gathering dust in the other room and stuck the GT430 in my i3... now using madVR and the LAVCUVID decoder... video looks great.. I picked up another GT430 for another i3 around here... the GT430 maybe eat 15 watts too much at idle but as much of Radeon guy as I have been over the years the solid drivers and the recent extra support for Nvidia have really turned me around.

I am thinking Sandy Bridge and a GT430 or it's replacement will be awfully hard for any of these AMD APUs to beat. Loose a slot. but hey. I do like being able to do a display driver update without holding my breath for a couple of weeks before and after.
post #222 of 880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

The LAVCUVID Decoder works very nicely on ION.

Hmm, I haven't actually installed it on the ION yet. I only installed LAVCUVID recently since I just got started playing with MadVR on my test build with G41+Celeron E3300 3.33GHz+GT 430. Bought the G41+E3300 combo on impulse from Fry's for $40. Paired it with a $40 case (on sale), installed an unused GT 430 ($60 from past Newegg sale) and some Kingston 2x2GB DDR2 800 ($35 purchased either in 2008 or 2009) and a Samsung 1TB I had lying around (used to be on the unRAID server). It actually makes for a pretty decent, inexpensive PC. I'm still using CoreAVC w/CUDA on the ION. Going to have to research if LAVCUVID will work with the internal WMC player.

The challenge for Llano is if AMD's GPGPU efforts would gain traction. Hmm, wonder how soon AMD will be dropping prices on desktop Llano...
post #223 of 880
hermitage akihabara

The source is usually very reliable.
post #224 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post


The challenge for Llano is if AMD's GPGPU efforts would gain traction. Hmm, wonder how soon AMD will be dropping prices on desktop Llano...

Yeah, it will be interesting what happens AFTER the parts are available.

But, as I've stated before, we don't even have an official launch date, official model line-up or pricing.

I still haven't seen any previews on english language websites other than the Anandtech piece and motherboards.org.

The link below repeats the leaked model numbers, early July release date, BUT introduces a tri-core variation:

http://en.ocworkbench.com/tech/amd-a...-into-a6-3600/
post #225 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

hermitage akihabara

The source is usually very reliable.

Thank you. So it sounds like launch will be in the first week of July.

What do think of the ocworkbench A6-3500 is tri-core rumor?
post #226 of 880
This is the first time I see the model number 3500, but OCW must have surely gotten information from AMD insiders. If there is a tri-core, it is a quad core with one core disabled. A6-3400 is also a quad-core with two cores disabled. Llano2 is planned several months later and that's a native dual-core.
post #227 of 880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post
A6-3400 is also a quad-core with two cores disabled.
Well that's certainly interesting. Wonder what the chances are that you can unlock those?
post #228 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post
Well that's certainly interesting. Wonder what the chances are that you can unlock those?
Anand mentioned, in the mobile review, that defective (un-paid-for?) cores would be fused off. Dunno if "fused off" is any different than what AMD does with their current quad core sold as tri-core parts, or even if "fused off" is an actual term for die harvesting.

http://www.anandtech.com/print/4444

If it's true about tri-cores, I wonder if AMD is still working on what they'll release/announce...
post #229 of 880
A55 (Hudson D2) = A75 (Hudson D3) without USB 3.0 is also available. GIGABYTE is preparing seven A75 mb and five A55 mb. (Source.)
post #230 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

A55 (Hudson D2) = A75 (Hudson D3) without USB 3.0 is also available. GIGABYTE is preparing seven A75 mb and five A55 mb. (Source.)

Thx: the source of this info (computerbase.de) leads to a couple of Llano related items

Price: A8-3850 (2.9 GHz, 100W, 40 Radeon cores) ~$150, listed at two "shops"

http://www.computerbase.de/news/hard...s-flaggschiff/

A6-3650 (2.6 GHz, 100W, 320 Radeon cores) ~$125

The A6-3650 might be in my price range...

Note that these prices are lower than the leaked prices that were part of the "old" model numbering scheme. AMD must have listened to our price evaluation speculation. Just kidding. But this pricing looks closer to the Athlon II x4 PLUS HD 6450 comparison that was being discussed.

The actual A6-3650 price is also ~the same as the present bottom Core i3, which agrees with this AMD competitive positioning chart:
http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/34985/31/

For reference, here's the leaked chart of the purported desktop lineup:
http://www.donanimhaber.com/islemci/...detaylandi.htm

Next, we need mATX pricing.

Gigabyte A75 etc "media Review guide" which has some tech stuff and lots of marketing/value pitch, including dual graphics performance
http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/35033/1/
post #231 of 880
Thread Starter 
Desktop Llanos listed, priced

Quote:
A bit cheaper than expected

With the attention focused on mobile Llano processors, it is easy to forget upcoming desktop versions, which are just around the corner.

A few US e-tailers have started listing AMD Llano desktop parts and the first prices seem a tad lower than expected from previously leaked price sheets. Some EU shops have also listed a couple of A6- and A8-series parts, but without any price info.

According to US listings, the flagship A8-3850, a 2.9GHz quad core is set to cost about $150. On the graphics side of things, the processor packs HD6550D graphics with 400 shaders and a 600MHz clock. It supports DDR3-1866 memory and has a 100 watt TDP. This sounds like rather good value for money, as $150 will buy you Core i3 2120 Sandy Bridge dual core, clocked at 3.3GHz.

The 2.6GHz A6-3650 is listed at $126. Like the A8-3850 it features a 100W TDP and 4MB of L2 cache, but it packs an HD 6530D graphics core, with 320 shaders clocked at 443MHz. This baby also sounds like a pretty good deal, costing about the same as a Core i3-2100 dual-core.

Mind you, AMD will also introduce a number of cheaper models, including sub-$100 dual-cores in both E2-series and A4-series flavours.

Judging by the prices, AMD will deliver excellent value for money in the mainstream and entry-level markets. Although we still don't have any motherboard prices, AMD boards were traditionally marginally cheaper than Intel's, so this should not be an issue and platform cost will stay rather low.

OEMs might find the prospect of dirt cheap quad-cores with integrated 6000-series Radeons quite attractive, as they will allow them to slap DirectX 11 and quad-core stickers even on their cheapest desktops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post
Note that these prices are lower than the leaked prices that were part of the "old" model numbering scheme. AMD must have listened to our price evaluation speculation. Just kidding. But this pricing looks closer to the Athlon II x4 PLUS HD 6450 comparison that was being discussed.

The actual A6-3650 price is also ~the same as the present bottom Core i3, which agrees with this AMD competitive positioning chart:
http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/34985/31/
I do think AMD listened to our price complaints. From the chart you gave, low-end A6 would is priced similarly to high-end i3 while A8 is i5 level. Assuming the new prices are correct, now, high-end A6 is priced the same as low-end i3 while high-end A8 is priced the same as high-end i3. Pretty darned good value and exactly what I'm willing to pay. Now where are the 65W TDP models and what's the pricing like on those?
post #232 of 880
I am watching for a HTPC related review from Anandtech.

I really hope that idle wattage is relatively low as compared to I3.
post #233 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by shftup View Post

I am watching for a HTPC related review from Anandtech.

I really hope that idle wattage is relatively low as compared to I3.

Yes, we are listening Expect the HTPC review of the A8-3850 to be posted on June 30 (NDA lift date).

We are planning to repeat all the tests done for the Discrete HTPC GPU Shootout piece. Planning to add some notes about the accuracy of the colour output (RGB to YCC coversion). Let me know if you want us to cover anything else.
post #234 of 880
It's probably worth noting that the high end ($150) Llano's don't seem like the HTPC chip of choice at all. I realize we can get lost between TDP and real power consumption but 100W TDP chips require big coolers and AMD in general is not especially impressive with coming in low on the actual power consumption.

It sounds like the 65W TDP Llano's might well cost the same as the i3-2100, thoroughly outpointing them in graphics benchmarks, lagging behind badly in some CPU tests, winning in others. Very competitive to be sure.
post #235 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Desktop Llanos listed, priced




I do think AMD listened to our price complaints. From the chart you gave, low-end A6 would is priced similarly to high-end i3 while A8 is i5 level. Assuming the new prices are correct, now, high-end A6 is priced the same as low-end i3 while high-end A8 is priced the same as high-end i3. Pretty darned good value and exactly what I'm willing to pay. Now where are the 65W TDP models and what's the pricing like on those?

AMD is still working through the mfg test procedures for their new digital algorithm controlled clock throttling (or turboing, depending upon how you look at it). I'm just kidding, but the constant clock (100W) models should be closest to their standard mfg/test flow. Maybe the're gathering data on mfg runs as to how much they really consume, so they can feed it back into their 65W turbo algorithms.
post #236 of 880
I'm definitely building a Trinity HTPC setup when it's out if Ivy Bridge doesn't bring anything great to the table for graphics. Llano is a step in the right direction but it just isn't packing what I want in a CPU.
post #237 of 880
Jakmal, I really enjoyed your GPU review.

Please take the below with this context = I am a complete noob to HTPC.

With all the new(er) hardware, etc - I think a strong software follow up is required, you touched on it in the GPU review, but I think a basic setup/mid level for software setup should be in an appendix or similar (for those noobs like me). It take much less time to setup the hardware, than the software - depending on your knowledge.
Including a software matrix (to go along with the HTPC hardware matrix) would definitely go a long way for those new or newer to HTPC/media streamer.


Thanks
post #238 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by shftup View Post

I think a strong software follow up is required, you touched on it in the GPU review, but I think a basic setup/mid level for software setup should be in an appendix or similar (for those noobs like me). It take much less time to setup the hardware, than the software - depending on your knowledge.
Including a software matrix (to go along with the HTPC hardware matrix) would definitely go a long way for those new or newer to HTPC/media streamer.


Do you mean what filters etc. to use with what GPUs?
post #239 of 880
I do, thanks.
post #240 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

Yes, we are listening Expect the HTPC review of the A8-3850 to be posted on June 30 (NDA lift date).

We are planning to repeat all the tests done for the Discrete HTPC GPU Shootout piece. Planning to add some notes about the accuracy of the colour output (RGB to YCC coversion). Let me know if you want us to cover anything else.

Thanks.

There certainly is interest in a rough date for the 65W parts. 65W power envelope does make more sense for the HTPC market. It probably would make more sense for me also, since the current system and a DishNetwork DVR share an enclosed cabinet with a slow turning 120mm fan for cabinet vent.
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