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AMD Llano - THE great HTPC chip? - Page 23

post #661 of 880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

I haven't been keeping up with the Llanos, is the consensus currently that it is a bust? I was still hoping to replace my Clarkdale mini-ITX HTPC with Llano, but just doesn't seem like things are going anywhere with AMD

It's not a bust. It's more like too little, too late. It's a decent product overall, however, if you already have a Clarkdale, might be best to wait for Trinity if you're not experiencing any issues. Unless you get the high-end Llano models, it's kind of a downgrade CPU-wise. The GPU is significantly better but it's useless if you don't run (or plan on running) software that requires a better GPU. You might save 5W or so on idle power consumption but load power consumption of Llano is significantly higher.
post #662 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

It's not a bust. It's more like too little, too late. It's a decent product overall, however, if you already have a Clarkdale, might be best to wait for Trinity if you're not experiencing any issues. Unless you get the high-end Llano models, it's kind of a downgrade CPU-wise. The GPU is significantly better but it's useless if you don't run (or plan on running) software that requires a better GPU. You might save 5W or so on idle power consumption but load power consumption of Llano is significantly higher.

Yeah, looks like I will be waiting for Trinity
post #663 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

You should be able to bitstream lossy formats without any special encoder. downmixing HD audio is something I'm not familiar with as I bitstream. But ya, optical is limited to 2ch PCM.

I'm using an asus f1a75-m pro, and the audio driver that it comes with does not give you any option to set optical to do anything other than 2 channel stereo.

I suppose i could have used stereo-mini to rca cables and hooked it up using analog discrete 8 channel, but instead I bought a xonar d2 pci soundcard.

with the xonar d2 i was able to use optical and send dobly dts etc, but i elected to do discrete 8 channel so I could use the xonar d2's dts processor so I could support DTS-MA and DTS TrueHD. Sounds great now.

The only remaining issue I have with my system, is mouse alignment in crysis 2, and bioshock doesnt appear to want to display. I have read online that the mouse alignment issue in crysis is caused by dpi settings, but i havent confirmed this yet.

I have to say that I am completely satisfied with the performance of the A8-3850 and I would strongly recommend it to anyone. I paid $240 for a bundle with the motherboard, and that's at a local store here in Alberta. Should be even cheaper state-side. The system plays crysis 2 just fine (albeit at low settings) and any HD content i've thrown at it so far. overclocking appears to be impossible with this APU because the bclk is tied to everything.. if you increase it, the hard-drive controller stops working right. I'd recommend getting the fastest RAM possible if you're playing games as the integrated radeon 6550 will benefit from it. Also, if i really wanted to max out my gaming experience I could easily pair it with a $100 (or less) Radeon 6770.

Hope this feedback helps someone!
post #664 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Yeah, looks like I will be waiting for Trinity

Let's hope AMD delivers the FX products in October. It's the end of Q3, and NE has no A8-3800 listed AND the A6-3650 and A8-3850 products are out of stock.

Hopefully this is due to AMD priming the FX pipeline with product. If it is, we should see the reviews starting a couple of weeks from now. Let's hope the FX series has a decent boost in IPC compared to the existing AMD product. If it doesn't, Trinity will not be significantly better CPU-wise than Llano.

There's a lot of hope in the statements above, but if the hopes come true Trinity (Q2? Q3?) should be a decent bump above the existing Llano parts.

PS: This post just reminded me of the reality of touring the Boeing Everett factory a few years back during fall. The media was reporting Boeing statements that the first 787s would start assembly in Q2 of the following year. A visual inspection of the 787 assembly bay showed a big crane on the empty floor, with the concrete floor cut open. I thought to myself "no way will Boeing be assembling the 1st 787 here next year..."
post #665 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Yeah, looks like I will be waiting for Trinity

I just purchashed some ddr3 1600 ram and windows so I don't want to wait forever. But I might hold off for Ivy bridge or trininty, it depends on what the pre-release reviews look like and what deals come up for an A4/A55 combo.
post #666 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

It's not a bust. It's more like too little, too late. It's a decent product overall, however, if you already have a Clarkdale, might be best to wait for Trinity if you're not experiencing any issues. Unless you get the high-end Llano models, it's kind of a downgrade CPU-wise. The GPU is significantly better but it's useless if you don't run (or plan on running) software that requires a better GPU. You might save 5W or so on idle power consumption but load power consumption of Llano is significantly higher.

From what I understand even the A4 Llano will do everything HTPC except if you use madvr as your decoder?

By everything HTPC I mean:

Blu-ray and blue-ray 3D/dvd playback n ripping
HD DVR duty - including 1080i60 playback
HD netflix and hulu streaming

I mean even the anemic zacate system does
blue ray
HD DVR
1080i60 playback
post #667 of 880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

From what I understand even the A4 Llano will do everything HTPC except if you use madvr as your decoder?

By everything HTPC I mean:

Blu-ray and blue-ray 3D/dvd playback n ripping
HD DVR duty - including 1080i60 playback
HD netflix and hulu streaming

I mean even the anemic zacate system does
blue ray
HD DVR
1080i60 playback

Sure, but I think the only thing Celeron Sandy Bridge doesn't do from the above list is Blu-ray 3D. Going with the Celeron is also slightly cheaper compared to Llano, particularly if you're building Mini-ITX. Open-source support might still be iffy on Intel but it appears to be getting there. MadVR was actually one reason to choose Llano over Sandy Bridge.

If you don't need 24p, Blu-ray 3D, gaming or MadVR, what does the A4 offer that a cheaper Celeron G530 doesn't?
post #668 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

I just purchashed some ddr3 1600 ram and windows so I don't want to wait forever. But I might hold off for Ivy bridge or trininty, it depends on what the pre-release reviews look like and what deals come up for an A4/A55 combo.

NE now has more reasonably priced A55 MBs, though no A55 reaches down to the H61 $50 price point. In reality, if you send in the $20 MIR, the A75 Biostar is the least expensive because shopping is free, so total cost is only $60.
Combining that with the A4-3400, you wind up with $130 (AFTER the MIR) for MB & APU.

For reference, the least expensive dual core Intel SNB/MB combo is ~$108.

Are you looking for something around the $110 mark (H61 & Celeron G530)?

NOTE: regarding the Biostar MB- I looked up the complaint on this forum regarding a Biostar A75 MB NOT supporting two digital displays. This was something not mentioned in the Biostar manual, but the user pinged Biostar:
"Confirmed by Biostar that it's the motherboards limitation. For dual displays, it will only display 1 analog and 1 digital signal...not dual digital."
This was regarding a more expensive BIOSTAR TA75M+ MB. So I skimmed the manual for the less expensive "$60" Biostar MB and could not find any note regarding valid display connector combinations. I therefore suspect that this MB also has this limitation.
post #669 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

"Confirmed by Biostar that it's the motherboards limitation. For dual displays, it will only display 1 analog and 1 digital signal...not dual digital."
This was regarding a more expensive BIOSTAR TA75M+ MB. So I skimmed the manual for the less expensive "$60" Biostar MB and could not find any note regarding valid display connector combinations. I therefore suspect that this MB also has this limitation.

What are the reasons for having dual displays on a HTPC? Is there some cool reason that I'm not aware of?
post #670 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTalent View Post

What are the reasons for having dual displays on a HTPC? Is there some cool reason that I'm not aware of?

Three reasons spring to mind :

1. Internal VGA case display (so instead of a small VFD people have a full VGA display in their case - sometimes touch screen)

2. Feeding HDMI audio from one output to an amp, and a different HDMI or DVI output to a display (useful if your HTPC and Display are 3D compatible but your amp isn't, and won't pass a 3D signal) Strictly speaking this isn't two displays - just two outputs (one HDMI output is just used for audio)

3. Feeding both a direct view TV and a projector (with one fed through an amp) allowing you to switch which is
displaying video, but with audio consistently fed from the same output.
post #671 of 880
sneals2000, thanks for that reply! I'm just learning my way around the HTPC world.
post #672 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTalent View Post

What are the reasons for having dual displays on a HTPC? Is there some cool reason that I'm not aware of?

You can also read the thread that brought this Biostar limitation to light:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=llano

Note that I'm not trying to overblow this MB limitation, but that this was a limitation of AMD's earlier iGPU chipsets. I own a few of those (78x, 79x). I thought "Good, AMD has improved the overall APU system architecture" when I read that dual digital was supported by the Llano "chipset" (really the Llano itself). The previous limititan was caused by AMD's use of a shared PLL between the two DDI.

However, it looks like at least one MB mfg doesn't support the new capability AND doesn't mention it in their manual(s).

I assume it adds cost to the MB to support dual independent digital outputs. It also looks to me that if the DVI supports DL the mfg would have to takes some of the PCIe G2/DP lanes away from the x16 dGPU slot...
Or do mfgs that support dual independent digital displays limit the DVI to SL?
post #673 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post

You can also read the thread that brought this Biostar limitation to light:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=llano

Note that I'm not trying to overblow this MB limitation, but that this was a limitation of AMD's earlier iGPU chipsets. I own a few of those (78x, 79x). I thought "Good, AMD has improved the overall APU system architecture" when I read that dual digital was supported by the Llano "chipset" (really the Llano itself). The previous limititan was caused by AMD's use of a shared PLL between the two DDI.

However, it looks like at least one MB mfg doesn't support the new capability AND doesn't mention it in their manual(s).

I assume it adds cost to the MB to support dual independent digital outputs. It also looks to me that if the DVI supports DL the mfg would have to takes some of the PCIe G2/DP lanes away from the x16 dGPU slot...
Or do mfgs that support dual independent digital displays limit the DVI to SL?

There are two digital video links coming out of the APU run over raw pci-e lanes (a pair of x8) but the actual configuration of a crossbar/mux and its limitations is up to the motherboard. These digital lines come straight out of the cpu socket, they do not come from the chipset hub at all. VGA does from what I can tell, since there is a DAC in the hub.

The ones that support dual link DVI bond them together, and I believe some also are capable of this with the displayport beyond a certain bitrate. (somewhere north of what is required for 1080p) Either way in these modes extra digital outs are disabled.

Since my setup was going in a rackmount case and I manage all my stuff from a 30" monitor, these feature differences are what steered me to the top end gigabyte model. (though I really wish it was UEFI too)
post #674 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluminum View Post

There are two digital video links coming out of the APU run over raw pci-e lanes (a pair of x8) but the actual configuration of a crossbar/mux and its limitations is up to the motherboard. These digital lines come straight out of the cpu socket, they do not come from the chipset hub at all. VGA does from what I can tell, since there is a DAC in the hub.

The ones that support dual link DVI bond them together, and I believe some also are capable of this with the displayport beyond a certain bitrate. (somewhere north of what is required for 1080p) Either way in these modes extra digital outs are disabled.

Since my setup was going in a rackmount case and I manage all my stuff from a 30" monitor, these feature differences are what steered me to the top end gigabyte model. (though I really wish it was UEFI too)

Thank you.

I noticed that a Gigabyte manual actual calls out that further Dual Link limitation, which is good to see:
"The DisplayPort, D-Sub, and HDMI ports will be disabled when Dual Link DVI mode is enabled"

See the attached for a more detailed diagram showing the signal paths that the digital video can take through the Llano APU.
I haven't seen any mfg offer say, two DVI-Dl, by running the internal graphics through the x16 dGPU high pairs also. But I haven't been looking,
LL
post #675 of 880
What's up. Can't believe I remembered my user/password...LOL Finished up my Llano build and having issue's with the video portion. Here's what I have:

AMD A8-3850 Llano
ASRock A75M-ITX FM1 AMD A75
CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 2.5" 64GB SATA III
Antec ISK 310-150 Black


It's connected to my linksys WRT54GS(dd-wrt FW) via cat5.
Win7
Window Media Center
Total Media 3 and 5
Media Browser
XBMC

When I play my BR rips using TM 3 or TM 5 as a "media folder", it does play it in 1080p and it does play the HD audio, but the video stutters every 10-20 secs. The audio never loses sync, it keeps going. When I choose a regular Dolby/DTS, it still does it. Now when I drill down to actual media file and play it as a "media file", it does not stutter, but I don't get my HD audio. Any ideas???
I've used the XBMC, but from using it and reading the sticky, it doesn't output HD audio yet, that and I can't get the subtitles to work properly.

Also, this thing gets hot. Using CPUID, it has hit 52c. I thought it was because of that, but when I played it the temp didn't reach that high yet and was get that issue. ve used the XBMC, but from using it and reading the sticky, it doesn't output HD audio yet, that and I can't get the subtitles to work properly.
post #676 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by elrafa View Post

Also, this thing gets hot. Using CPUID, it has hit 52c.

52 C isn't hot for a CPU.
post #677 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

52 C isn't hot for a CPU.


Ok..cool. Just checking cuz the fan goes crazy little after movie is started.
post #678 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by elrafa View Post

Ok..cool. Just checking cuz the fan goes crazy little after movie is started.

The HSF fan? If so what are you using?
post #679 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

The HSF fan? If so what are you using?


One that came with the llano chip. No clocking or anything. All stock. I still have the pc sitting out in open. Haven't put it in my entertainment center yet.
post #680 of 880
I even transferred the folder to the actual ssd and played it from there instead of streaming it over cat5 and it still does it. WTF
If I should make a new thread, let me know.
post #681 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by elrafa View Post

I even transferred the folder to the actual ssd and played it from there instead of streaming it over cat5 and it still does it. WTF
If I should make a new thread, let me know.

TMT uses different playback methods for disc and files. Many users have reported issues w/ TMT when using 11.5+ on AMD GPUs (the problem is not specific to Llano). It might be worth trying 11.4.

Also while I prefer TMT when it comes to BD playback I think LAV + MPC-HC is a better option for file based playback on the PC than it is.
post #682 of 880
The Tech Report: AMD's A8-3800 Fusion APU

So it's basically A8-3850 downclocked to 2.4GHz (and perhaps undervolted too) with the same iGPU. In case you are thinking about madVR, I recommend A8-3850 over A8-3800 because 2.4GHz is too slow for some contents to be software decoded. A8-3850 @1.250V (then almost the same TDP as A8-3800) with DDR3-1866 is a good choice.
post #683 of 880
DigiTimes: Supply of AMD Llano APU unlikely to recover until Trinity arrives

Quote:


Supply of AMD's Llano APUs, affected by Globalfoundries's lower-than-expected 32nm yield rates, has been significantly limited and is unlikely to recover until the company's upcoming Trinity arrives in 2012, according to sources from motherboard players. When asked about the company's upcoming Trinity schedule, AMD Taiwan declined to comment on unannounced products.

AMD started suffering from Llano APU supply shortages in July due to the yield issues and the company originally expected the supply status to return to normal in September. However, judging from the current situation, the sources believe the company's supply volume is unlikely to meet client demand through the end of 2011.

The sources estimated that the yield rate issue should be resolved in 2012, when Trinity launches.

APUs codenamed Trinity are set to appear in the first quarter of 2012, integrating AMD's Radeon HD 7000 series graphics chips (Southern Islands). The APU part to be manufactured on Globalfoundries' 32nm process and graphics chip part on Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company's (TSMC's) 28nm process.

Despite seeing problems in both 32nm and 45nm processes, Globalfoundries will continue its cooperation with Samsung Electronics over 28nm process technologies

"Trinity" here is the mobile version. Desktop Trinity is coming in Q2 1012.
post #684 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

DigiTimes: Supply of AMD Llano APU unlikely to recover until Trinity arrives


"Trinity" here is the mobile version. Desktop Trinity is coming in Q2 1012.


If you read the digitimes piece literally you'd get the impression that Trinity's graphics portion will be28 nm. In reality, the entire die/wafer will be made by GloFo on their 32 nm process.

The dGPU Southern Islands HD7000 will be fabbed by TSMC on 28 nm.

Moving back to the present, NE is out of stock on the CPU only part and the 3850 and still has no listing for the 3800.
post #685 of 880
I guess that makes Missing Remote second Although no gaming benchmarks in my look at the A8-3800.
post #686 of 880
I need to find a way to use the 11.4 drivers with my Llano (A6-3500) APU. Is this possible?

That is the only way I can get it to work with Arcsoft TMT.

Any later than 11.4 - lots of problems.
post #687 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkristof View Post


If you read the digitimes piece literally you'd get the impression that Trinity's graphics portion will be28 nm. In reality, the entire die/wafer will be made by GloFo on their 32 nm process.

The dGPU Southern Islands HD7000 will be fabbed by TSMC on 28 nm.

Moving back to the present, NE is out of stock on the CPU only part and the 3850 and still has no listing for the 3800.

Yeah that didn't sound right to me
post #688 of 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Yeah that didn't sound right to me

This particular snippet is taken from a Fudzilla item on Trinity. I don't know what the author is trying to say here:

"It [Trinity] should simply be better and of course, yields of this 32nm part with 28nm graphics transistors fitted to 32nm design are going to be much better. At this is what our sources are telling us."

http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/i...ther-codenames

In any case, we'll find out tomorrow how well the bulldozer cores in the Fx/Zambezi series actually do perform.

The $121 Provantage price for the tray quad-core 95W part seems reasonable...

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2011/2...available.html

I just took delivery today of an AM3+ MB w/ IGP, mainly so that I could go up to 8GB RAM cost effectively: I have a couple of AM3 processors, but only DDR2 MBs up till today. I assume the Fx-4100 will rearrange pricing on the existing AM3 processors.
post #689 of 880
BTW FX Series was just released. AnandTech, Tom's hardware. I hope AMD succeed with Trinity/Vishera with Piledriver core.
post #690 of 880
One thing is for sure, the CPU isn't nearly as good as everyone thought/hoped it would be.

- Less performance in single-threaded/lightly threaded workloads then Phenom II (the typical desktop workload)
- Less performance then Sandy Bridge in nearly all workloads (and higher power usage, too!).

All-in-all, for Desktop or HTPC workload, Bulldozer does not beat Intel, and it only marginally beats the Phenom II 6-core (if at all).
I'm not sure how the street prices will end up, but they will have to be rather low to even be viable.
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