or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 345

post #10321 of 16207
Flageborg, I posted a guide earlier in this thread for extracting the digital audio from a movie. Last week I rented STID and it took 30 minutes to rip, 10 minutes to extract the audio, and 2 minutes 8 seconds to analyze the peak/avg output in Spectrum Lab for the entire soundtrack using maxmercy's settings. You can also extract and analyze portions of the movie in less than a minute. Once you have the extracted audio, you can view the waveform in Audacity, WaveShop, or other programs.
Quote:
It appears Nube doesn't understand that raw data stored on disc can cause integer overflow during the decoding process. While Dolby TrueHD is a lossless encoding process, that doesn't mean it's impossible for something to go wrong during decoding.
The software decoders for TrueHD and DTS-HD are licensed from Dolby and DTS. Why would they have a problem with this movie and not others? Why are those with hardware decoders (Bossobass) having the same issue?
post #10322 of 16207
Like I said before some blurays just sound like crap. Like Gladiator for example. Compare the DTS dvd to the bluray. Somebody dropped the ball on that one for sure.
post #10323 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

I hate to tell everyone this but I just found a movie that is better than all the 5 Star movies with BASS.

We have a new winner with a new world record of 6 Stars for BASS:





I got this movie for my little girl and I was shocked at the low BASS from this movie. I was very surprise that a movie for kids can sound so good!

Watch this movie at reference volume and you are in for a surprise. Even if you don't have kids, give it a rental.
Thanks for the headsup on this, I'll pick a copy up for super-cheap off Amazon marketplace smile.gif

I believe it's called Nanny McPhee and the Big Bang in the UK, just to confuse things...
post #10324 of 16207
I have a question, if the movie is clipped and sounds harsh because of it then is that clipping from the upper bandwidth? Bass clipping would be harsh? I find movies to sound harsh from vocals or highs. Since I have upgraded to mains that can play stupid loud and have found movies like TDKR and Super 8 much easier to watch at reference. They are very loud but somewhat tolerable. I hear the clipping in Tron and Immortals as well but is that in the bass region or speakers range when crossing over at 80hz?
post #10325 of 16207
I mentioned previously that I had extracted both the TrueHD and AC3 tracks for STID. It appears the AC3 track (bottom) has less clipping.

Here is is at the 6:01.1 mark:

post #10326 of 16207
Are those frequencies on top? If so how can you hear the clipping at 21 hz? I am glad professionals pay attention to the detail. I have a question, the Super 8 levels look to low to see if there was clipping or not but all the harsh sounds were higher in level and if so why does that matter for movies with bass? Again, I am disappointed to have clipping but we want to know about the bass and since it is filtered that makes it bad for me rather than the clipping. Clipping tells me the overall level will be high so we have to turn it down to sound good but if it was full bandwidth I could have just bumped the LFE up to accommodate a low level of bass. Nothing we can do with a filtered track.
post #10327 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Are those frequencies on top?
That is the time stamp. The extracted audio clip was from 5:40-6:10. I'm zoomed in on the section starting at 21.1 seconds. However, this is the LFE track. The center channel levels are the same between the AC3 and TrueHD so perhaps the TrueHD decoder is causing a problem on the LFE track. I'm checking with Hendrik (nevcariel), the author of LAV Filters which is used for decoding.
post #10328 of 16207
What about my other questions? If we have clipping at the bass frequencies will that cause harsh sounds? If I can hear harsh sounds it is usually not from my subs. If I turn off the speakers then you can hear bad noises from the subs but I think any incomplete audio sounds bad.
post #10329 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have a question, if the movie is clipped and sounds harsh because of it then is that clipping from the upper bandwidth? Bass clipping would be harsh? I find movies to sound harsh from vocals or highs. Since I have upgraded to mains that can play stupid loud and have found movies like TDKR and Super 8 much easier to watch at reference. They are very loud but somewhat tolerable. I hear the clipping in Tron and Immortals as well but is that in the bass region or speakers range when crossing over at 80hz?

Hey Mktheater I wondered the same thing if some are experiencing an upper bandwidth problem and as I noted in my original post after viewing the movie as i found it tolerable as well. it does bring up some discoveries noted by some that bitstreaming on some setups exhibit the audible clipping while when the switched to the Lpcm in the player it went away! more than 5 of us with the Marantz 8801/7701 via bitstream or Lpcm had no such problems! I will all note as I did in my original post that raising the sub does indeed balance the low end with the upper end of the mix by as much as 4.5db from my calibrated level. I must admit when went to reference it was a yes tolerable but very scary experience eek.gif that I must admit I kinda liked more than just a little bit no hash as it was all intact just terrifying biggrin.gif

One thing I fully expect is this is a Theatrical mix and not a Nearfield which at home would indeed be extremely loud and headroom a must to pull it off wink.gif
post #10330 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What about my other questions? If we have clipping at the bass frequencies will that cause harsh sounds? If I can hear harsh sounds it is usually not from my subs. If I turn off the speakers then you can hear bad noises from the subs but I think any incomplete audio sounds bad.
Only if you have the the fidelity provided by an infinite baffle subwoofer system. biggrin.gif No, the clipping in the bass isn't as noticeable. Flight of the Phoenix has clipping in the crash scene. STID has clipping in the L, C, R, and LFE channels. The surrounds looked okay in the clips I checked. Your other speakers may sound harsh on STID.

Nevcairiel gets his copy of Star Trek Into Darkness tomorrow and may be able to check it out.
post #10331 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What about my other questions? If we have clipping at the bass frequencies will that cause harsh sounds? If I can hear harsh sounds it is usually not from my subs. If I turn off the speakers then you can hear bad noises from the subs but I think any incomplete audio sounds bad.

You can go to this page and watch the guy's video. It's an excellent source for understanding clean vs digital clipping, soft analog clipping and limiting.

http://productionadvice.co.uk/clipping/

From the page:
Quote:
The short version

Hard digital clipping gives the highest apparent loudness, but also the most distortion and the biggest loss of low bass.

Soft “analogue” clipping gives smoother, more “musical” sounding distortion, and retains more “punch” or thump. It’s still distorted, though.

Limiting usually gives the cleanest, least distorted results, but also reduces the apparent loudness the most, with the biggest loss of “punch”.

So, as always – you can’t have your cake and eat it ! The harder you push any kind of clipping or limiting, the more compromise there inevitably is – either in terms of added distortion or loss of “punch”.

Clever processors like the Slate FG-X do their best to trade the two factors off against each other, but at the end of the day it’s up to you to choose the perfect balance for your own music.


PS:
One more comment – “hard” digital clipping is the only one of the processes listed here that is entirely “un-natural”, meaning there’s no equivalent in analogue gear.

If you play his video on a high fidelity system and you can't hear the differences, then you're most likely one of the guys who says STID sounds good. wink.gif

EDIT: Keep in mind that in the vid he isn't bumping the level of the clipped and limited versions. The key for this discussion is that clipping and filtering the low end allows you to push the overall level UP! And, when you do that, obviously the distortion caused by clipping is elevated as well.

I prefer the clean version, hands down, no contest. It's immediately apparent. I would much rather the mix be clean and let ME bump the level (with no distortion) if I choose to.
Edited by bossobass - 9/16/13 at 2:16pm
post #10332 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What about my other questions? If we have clipping at the bass frequencies will that cause harsh sounds? If I can hear harsh sounds it is usually not from my subs. If I turn off the speakers then you can hear bad noises from the subs but I think any incomplete audio sounds bad.

No, clipping on LFE should not be possible to hear at all, since the signal will be filtered above your subwoofer systems crossover frequency.
It can sound a little bit different, more hard (?), but one will most likely believe that this is how it is supposed to be.
It will of course also sound more compressed if the severe clipping is sustained over a long enough time period.

Clipping makes a square wave out of the original more sine-like wave, this square wave can be seen as a set of sine waves, where the the fundamental is, say 40Hz, and then there will be odd-order harmonics, the first one at 3x40=120Hz, and the next ones will be attenuated by the filtering, depending on how the signal processing is set up.

By clipping the lfe extensively, it is possible to actually get more than 0dB level out of it, since the 1. fundamental in a square wave is higher in rms amplitude than a sine wave with the same maximum peak level.
post #10333 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You can go to this page and watch the guy's video. It's an excellent source for understanding clean vs digital clipping, soft analog clipping and limiting.

http://productionadvice.co.uk/clipping/

From the page:
If you play his video on a high fidelity system and you can't hear the differences, then you're most likely one of the guys who says STID sounds good. wink.gif

EDIT: Keep in mind that in the vid he isn't bumping the level of the clipped and limited versions. The key for this discussion is that clipping and filtering the low end allows you to push the overall level UP! And, when you do that, obviously the distortion caused by clipping is elevated as well.

I prefer the clean version, hands down, no contest. It's immediately apparent. I would much rather the mix be clean and let ME bump the level (with no distortion) if I choose to.

Only if it where that easy wink.gif you assume every system out there is exhibiting the distortion! I'm all to familiar with the various forms of clipping( especially digital) and over the years since the inception of the digital formats, I have heard it on a good percent of movies including a lot of recent one's ,STID is no exception but is grossly being blown out of proportion as if it where something new. I think further investigation is warranted into the matter and perhaps the horses mouth ( Mixers) would be able to help out here as well .
post #10334 of 16207
Oh I hear clipping in my system from recordings just wondering at what frequencies are audible. I will check the video.
post #10335 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

That is the time stamp. The extracted audio clip was from 5:40-6:10. I'm zoomed in on the section starting at 21.1 seconds. However, this is the LFE track. The center channel levels are the same between the AC3 and TrueHD so perhaps the TrueHD decoder is causing a problem on the LFE track. I'm checking with Hendrik (nevcariel), the author of LAV Filters which is used for decoding.

I'd be interested to see what you find. But for now, place a 120Hz 24dB/octave lowpass filter on the clipped TrueHD material, and it will look more like the AC3 LFE. The problem is not as much in the LFE, as it is in the main/center channels, where it is more audible. It is that, and the ULF filtering that is a disappointment.

In Immortals, some 10Hz portions were clipped in the LFE, giving 30, 50, 70Hz harmonics which were audible and dissonant. It may have been on purpose on that film.

JSS
post #10336 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Only if it where that easy wink.gif you assume every system out there is exhibiting the distortion! I'm all to familiar with the various forms of clipping( especially digital) and over the years since the inception of the digital formats, I have heard it on a good percent of movies including a lot of recent one's ,STID is no exception but is grossly being blown out of proportion as if it where something new. I think further investigation is warranted into the matter and perhaps the horses mouth ( Mixers) would be able to help out here as well .

Baloney.

Define "a good portion of movies".

Filtered low end, digital clipping and bumped overall level, especially in a 200 million dollar budget summer blockbuster, is being pointed out as something very disappointing and furthering the trend in soundtracks toward loudness wars... a bad thing. Nothing grossly added or blown out of proportion. Crap is crap.
post #10337 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Oh I hear clipping in my system from recordings just wondering at what frequencies are audible. I will check the video.

Def watch the vid.

When low end is digitally clipped, the description is "loss of punch" and "loss of low end" because clipped low freqs and filtering subtracts a lot of power from the presentation. It's not distortion as you're used to describing a scratchy high end, but it's still distortion and just as noticeable, if not more so.
post #10338 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post

Thanks for the headsup on this, I'll pick a copy up for super-cheap off Amazon marketplace smile.gif

I believe it's called Nanny McPhee and the Big Bang in the UK, just to confuse things...

It looks like me and you are at a different world in this thread now. LOL!

The DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 sound track is very whimsical and fun to listen to.

Be prepared for Nanny's walking stick making contact with the floor because I was not.
post #10339 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Baloney.

Define "a good portion of movies".

Filtered low end, digital clipping and bumped overall level, especially in a 200 million dollar budget summer blockbuster, is being pointed out as something very disappointing and furthering the trend in soundtracks toward loudness wars... a bad thing. Nothing grossly added or blown out of proportion. Crap is crap.

A trend? how so? Oblivion/ Prometheus/ Oz represent some of the best soundtracks to date in terms of a whole and for me shows a vast improvement extracting fidelity from sound effects while keeping musical scores intact. I've never expected all to be the same from studio to studio, as they all have a flaw one way or another. If the mixers/director decide the best way to interpret there intention has a little level bump involved, then Oh well !hopefully when they mix it for the near field, the one's who pay attention will catch it but if they decide what was on the theatrical mix better gets there idea across then guess what! Oh well again. I cringe at the sight of teal in movies as well , but Oh well again it is what it is. And if you haven't heard the digital or other sorts of clipping in (maybe ok not the vast majority of movies ) then I can see why this is a big deal for some wink.gif
Edited by audiofan1 - 9/16/13 at 6:03pm
post #10340 of 16207
Right,ou do need to add Percy Jackson and the Olympians to the 5 star list. Other than that it is a very good list. 8M
post #10341 of 16207
I listened to the first test of hard clipping and all I can hear is that with the clipping portion the drum portion has a sharper edge to the end of the beat. BTW, I heard his on my iPhone.
post #10342 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Only if you have the the fidelity provided by an infinite baffle subwoofer system. biggrin.gif No, the clipping in the bass isn't as noticeable. Flight of the Phoenix has clipping in the crash scene. STID has clipping in the L, C, R, and LFE channels. The surrounds looked okay in the clips I checked. Your other speakers may sound harsh on STID.

Nevcairiel gets his copy of Star Trek Into Darkness tomorrow and may be able to check it out.

"May sound harsh" must be the understatement of the year.
The LCR mix has clipping that makes that sound track the worst ive heard. Ever. I have not heard a single sound track that is worse than STID. Ever.
The clipping makes it incredibly fatiguing and made me want to dive for the remote control.

Worst. Mix. Ever.

Didnt finish the movie, and probably never will. And the movie itself and the PQ was really good!

The Bluray should be recalled and replaced with a version that isnt obviously defective.

How the hell are people listening to this anywhere close to reference....
post #10343 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Baloney.

Define "a good portion of movies".

Filtered low end, digital clipping and bumped overall level, especially in a 200 million dollar budget summer blockbuster, is being pointed out as something very disappointing and furthering the trend in soundtracks toward loudness wars... a bad thing. Nothing grossly added or blown out of proportion. Crap is crap.

A trend? how so? Oblivion/ Prometheus/ Oz represent some of the best soundtracks to date in terms of a whole and for me shows a vast improvement extracting fidelity from sound effects while keeping musical scores intact. I've never expected all to be the same from studio to studio, as they all have a flaw one way or another. If the mixers/director decide the best way to interpret there intention has a little level bump involved, then Oh well !hopefully when they mix it for the near field, the one's who pay attention will catch it but if they decide what was on the theatrical mix better gets there idea across then guess what! Oh well again. I cringe at the sight of teal in movies as well , but Oh well again it is what it is. And if you haven't heard the digital or other sorts of clipping in (maybe ok not the vast majority of movies ) then I can see why this is a big deal for some wink.gif
You seem to keep repeating this line about the 'theatrical mix' when the simple truth is, there have been MANY BDs released without nearfield mixes (i.e. the theatrical mix) that don't sound like overblown crap.

In fact, I saw a far higher number of viewers complaining about the audio for STID when they watched it in theaters than just about any other movie in recent history.

It's a pity, because I found the movie quite entertaining otherwise.


Max
post #10344 of 16207
There is something going on with decoding of the STID track that is processor/chip related.

I am heard hard clipping (popping/snapping sounds) during the USS Vengenace water crash, and the Super 8 train crash sequence (this is much worse) on my Mcintosh MX-151 processor when bitstreaming. However, decoding in the Oppo does not produce the audible clipping (though I still find the soundtrack overly loud, compressed, and fatiguing)

I can bitstream to my Denon 20.4, and there is no audible clipping (though again, still a crappy mix to me)

Yet other TrueHD 7.1 and 5.1 titles I own do not clip, and sound good and excellent overall - Transformers Dark of the Moon, Monsters Inc 3d, Brave 3d and a few others.

It seems that mixes on STID and Super 8, both of which apparently can approach maximum db levels "trip up" at least my processor, and perhaps others.
post #10345 of 16207
Are those tracks clipped DTS or Dolby?

With a TrueHD track, the decoder normalizes the audio while it doesn't with a DTS track.

If the clipped tracks are clipped, could it be cause of the normalization? Maybe it's adding too much? I noticed that the receiver usually adds +4db to TrueHD tracks when bitstreaming.
post #10346 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Are those tracks clipped DTS or Dolby?

With a TrueHD track, the decoder normalizes the audio while it doesn't with a DTS track.

If the clipped tracks are clipped, could it be cause of the normalization? Maybe it's adding too much? I noticed that the receiver usually adds +4db to TrueHD tracks when bitstreaming.


Both are Dolby TrueHD 7.1, both JJ Abrahms, both Paramount.
post #10347 of 16207
The problem with clipped tracks is sound quality because lowering the volume still sounds clipped. Maybe more tolerable to the ears as it is not at reference anymore.
post #10348 of 16207
But all of us are not experiencing clipping of harshness, so there is more to this than meets the eye IMO.
post #10349 of 16207
With which release of STID does this clipping occur? the US release? EU? CEE?
post #10350 of 16207
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

But all of us are not experiencing clipping of harshness, so there is more to this than meets the eye IMO.

Many of us listen at or close to reference so a clipped track will sound very sharp or harsh so you have to turn it down. A very well recorded track on my system could be played at reference all day with zero fatigue.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts