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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 441

post #13201 of 16120
FM,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I truly enjoy reading the thought process behind mixing from a professional. It is a fascinating subject.

If you wouldn't mind sharing, what kind of HT do you have, or after mixing all day is the last thing you want to do is watch a movie at home?
post #13202 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

OK, don't argue why you don't, but please tell us what the harm is in putting it in? Instead of catering for 98% of audiences, why not cater for 100%? Especially, when putting in ULF in most case realistically produce the sound of the scene.

Take a film like War of the Worlds and the pod scene, a lot of content below 20hz there as everyone knows and in reality, Earthquakes are measured with equipment that detect sound from 20 Hz down to 0.001 Hz. So I guess you could say that scene is trying to fairly accurately reproduce what something like that if it were actually to happen. To me, that makes a movie so much more realistic and exciting.

However, take Avatar and the tree hitting the ground, we see the ground rippling but there is not much ULF content to follow it up and to me that scene was just so unrealistic and flat, I was rather disappointed.

Dave. I've never said I'm against putting it in or that it's harmful when it does get put in.

It doesn't just show up, however, and then arbitrarily get taken out.... In a vast majority of cases, it must be put there by intent.

Do you rally think that 2% of home theaters can properly reproduce below 16Hz?

I would guess it is well less than .5%.

Even if we concede that it's 2%, it's been been discussed that dub stages and theaters and studios aren't built to reproduce such content....

I know why all those RT tracks that Dave mentioned have the ULF in them that they do... I've also confirmed that the dub stages and design rooms where they were created don't go appreciably lower than the industry standard.

My personal option is that I'm not going to spend extra resources creating material I can't properly reproduce in a majority of venues where it will be reproduced

I don't get rid of it, but I also don't concern myself with the lack of it on the films I work on. In the end, there are so many more things in soundtracks that add to the experience than ULF almost no one can reproduce.

Looking at it another way, if I had a mixing stage that sounded better than 98% of the venues out there, I would make decisions that would adversely effect the track when played back in said places.....

To give you an example, back in the late 90's, there was a very prominent large studio that decided to install a 3 way monitoring system instead of the traditional 2 way...

When listening on such systems, you get a smoother top end, and as a result push leaves into your recorders because it isn't as fatiquing or bright as the two ways....

It's subjectively smoother.

The first film that came out was so loud, bright and brash in almost every other venue it played in that the entire industry took note and had to rethink how three way systems would move forward.

It still isn't the standard...

The same thing could be said about setting up a dub stage where you were out of line with the majority of playback venues.in terms of ULF.. However, in that case, you might pull back on the content and in 98% of venues you would be bass light...

That's not any kind of excuse, but just one of the points for discussion that comes along when designing new rooms..

So to rephrase your comment, I focus on what I know 99% of people can reprocdcue, rather than the 10hz of material that very few can......

In the end, it's just not a point of discussion that comes up with my peers, and the passion gets amplified here by a select few who have a somewhat myopic view on the subject of film sound....

I'm a big picture guy...

And again, I applaud what you've done.... It shows how truly dedicated you are to the art of film sound. smile.gif

I agree that most won't be below 16hz, but I'd bet an awful lot of home setups get down to 20 quite comfortably. When we see the 30jhz and above mixes it is a bit groan inducing when it's a movie with pure earth pounding action. At least that's how I see it.
post #13203 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

FM,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I truly enjoy reading the thought process behind mixing from a professional. It is a fascinating subject.

If you wouldn't mind sharing, what kind of HT do you have, or after mixing all day is the last thing you want to do is watch a movie at home?

It would be very hard to top the stage he works on on a home scale lol!
post #13204 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I agree that most won't be below 16hz, but I'd bet an awful lot of home setups get down to 20 quite comfortably. When we see the 30jhz and above mixes it is a bit groan inducing when it's a movie with pure earth pounding action. At least that's how I see it.

I don't disagree with that sentiment.. a couple of the tracks I've heard in the last year confirm what I've seen on here.

I can tell you about Riddick, as an example, there was no pre-designed LFE, and for the SFX there are some specific effects that extend down low enough to get the desired effect on the stage (the obelisk fall when towards the beginning, the avalanche), but overall the music and FX tracks are 25-30 heavy, as can be seen in the graphs.. the score was stereo pairs with a lot of synth elements... In the end, I was fairly happy with how wide and full it ended up from where we started...
post #13205 of 16120
I played the server room scene for the first time tonight from the movie pulse. wow this scene is truly amazing!

I played it using my fv15hps in 18 hz mode at 100 dbs and even at that level it was pretty intense! I could see this scene damaging subs if someone was watching at refrence and didn't know it was coming.

the scene sounds deep and powerful. I believe its a 16hz pulsing tone

highly recommended for demons and anyone who hasn't seen it. it instantly became a favorite
post #13206 of 16120
Captain Philips – 5.1 DTS- MA
Fantastic audio track – supported the film magnificently
Great sense of space – front and side wall imaging
Tons of weight in lower region –
Loved it


Machete Kills – 5.1 DTS-MA
Another great track – does not plummet the depths
But the fidelity in bass is superb – lots of that really nice mid bass slam
Great surround work on this one also
Fun film but probably not everyone cup of tea
Worth it just for the audio and the babes
post #13207 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

I played the server room scene for the first time tonight from the movie pulse. wow this scene is truly amazing!

I played it using my fv15hps in 18 hz mode at 100 dbs and even at that level it was pretty intense! I could see this scene damaging subs if someone was watching at refrence and didn't know it was coming.

the scene sounds deep and powerful. I believe its a 16hz pulsing tone

highly recommended for demons and anyone who hasn't seen it. it instantly became a favorite

I was debating getting this flick but you have convinced me to buy it!
post #13208 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornSlippyZ View Post

I was debating getting this flick but you have convinced me to buy it!

Check out my clip of the server scene flexing my room. This is with just 1 Triax subwoofer, now I'm going to make another clip with 2 Triaxes! biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cvL2CedEa8
post #13209 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post


Check out my clip of the server scene flexing my room. This is with just 1 Triax subwoofer, now I'm going to make another clip with 2 Triaxes! biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cvL2CedEa8

Ha! That is sweet! Those Triaxes are monsters!
post #13210 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornSlippyZ View Post

Ha! That is sweet! Those Triaxes are monsters!

Thanks! Man I just had the 2nd one shipped here not too long ago, 2,000 miles for each one to get here. I wish I lived where your at, the company is in Mineral Ridge, Ohio. I wonder how far that is from where you live
post #13211 of 16120
about 4 hours drive... I have family in Mineral Ridge
post #13212 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

about 4 hours drive... I have family in Mineral Ridge

Not too far from PSA!
post #13213 of 16120
my relatives are 5 minutes away from PSA's HQ... I'm about 12 hours. SlippyZ is 4 hours away. I was in Mineral Ridge during their grand opening weekend, but unfortunately I was there to say goodbye to my grandmother, God bless her, she was 97, and that was the priority. Most of my relatives there are vultures and scum, unfortunately, and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. No worries . Just hope Tom and crew have good video surveillance 24/7. Just sayin' ....
post #13214 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

my relatives are 5 minutes away from PSA's HQ... I'm about 12 hours. SlippyZ is 4 hours away. I was in Mineral Ridge during their grand opening weekend, but unfortunately I was there to say goodbye to my grandmother, God bless her, she was 97, and that was the priority. Most of my relatives there are vultures and scum, unfortunately, and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. No worries . Just hope Tom and crew have good video surveillance 24/7. Just sayin' ....

Lol! I have the same issue with some parts of my family eek.gif man 97! Wow that was a good life!
post #13215 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

You mean with just the Denon 4520? My avr I can use the bass control on top of DEQ....but it's not a Denon either.

I use an Marantz 8801.
post #13216 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

You mean with just the Denon 4520? My avr I can use the bass control on top of DEQ....but it's not a Denon either.

I use an Marantz 8801.

So it doesn't sound specific to Audyssey (or Denon....well sort of since same company), just avr specific on how tone controls interface with an Audyssey setting as setup by the avr manufacturer. Not that I use my tone controls on top of DEQ on my Onkyo...but I can.
post #13217 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So it doesn't sound specific to Audyssey (or Denon....well sort of since same company), just avr specific on how tone controls interface with an Audyssey setting as setup by the avr manufacturer. Not that I use my tone controls on top of DEQ on my Onkyo...but I can.

My understanding, the 4520 has the heart of a 8801 inside.

We just received and put our 4520 into service. Over the next few days, I'll learn more going over the online manual......all 227 pages of it. tongue.gif
post #13218 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So it doesn't sound specific to Audyssey (or Denon....well sort of since same company), just avr specific on how tone controls interface with an Audyssey setting as setup by the avr manufacturer. Not that I use my tone controls on top of DEQ on my Onkyo...but I can.

Indeed manufacture dependent , the each have there own philosophies I guess, with the Marantz 8801 you can enable the sub for Pure Direct which is fine by me as I may use it and its nice to have the option.
post #13219 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I don't disagree with that sentiment.. a couple of the tracks I've heard in the last year confirm what I've seen on here.

I can tell you about Riddick, as an example, there was no pre-designed LFE, and for the SFX there are some specific effects that extend down low enough to get the desired effect on the stage (the obelisk fall when towards the beginning, the avalanche), but overall the music and FX tracks are 25-30 heavy, as can be seen in the graphs.. the score was stereo pairs with a lot of synth elements... In the end, I was fairly happy with how wide and full it ended up from where we started...

Fascinating stuff Film Mixer. For me ULF (ELF?) is not a concern as my subs rolloff about 17Hz so Im pretty happy with most movies that have a decent bass track. Midbass slam is awesome with JTR Captivators. I know there's obviously a lot of variable's you must be dealing with when creating the audio mix for a film. How much more time and effort would be spent including, where its warranted, ULF for certain scenes? I know that you've said it doesn't warrant the extra time due to the low target audience but just wondering how much time and effort does it take to mix certain scenes that justify it? Take for example a scene like World War Z Grenade bass sweep (1 hour mark of film) that everybody raves about (for good reason) that begins in the 50Hz region and finishes below 10Hz. There maybe a few other scenes in that film that plumb similar depths but lets say that was the only one. What sort of extra requirement would there be to achieve that result in the final mix? Why does that particular mixer decide to cater for the very low percentage of people who can reproduce the effect given that only a minute amount of people are going to get it? As I said it doesn't effect me but is their potential for a "special consideration" for the ULF guys given the discussions you've had here?biggrin.gif
post #13220 of 16120
I know this is slightly OT. But why when I watch FotP plane roll my back right speaker (a small psb b4) the woofer flutters like crazy. Is there That much Ido in the surrounds and that low?! I have it crossed over at 100. I was like wtf!!! The excursion for that tiny driver was bad. I had never noticed it before.

Btw I was demoing at -5db MV
post #13221 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Dave. I've never said I'm against putting it in or that it's harmful when it does get put in.

It doesn't just show up, however, and then arbitrarily get taken out.... In a vast majority of cases, it must be put there by intent.


I know why all those RT tracks that Dave mentioned have the ULF in them that they do... I've also confirmed that the dub stages and design rooms where they were created don't go appreciably lower than the industry standard.

My personal option is that I'm not going to spend extra resources creating material I can't properly reproduce in a majority of venues where it will be reproduced

I don't get rid of it, but I also don't concern myself with the lack of it on the films I work on. In the end, there are so many more things in soundtracks that add to the experience than ULF almost no one can reproduce.

So to rephrase your comment, I focus on what I know 99% of people can reprocdcue, rather than the 10hz of material that very few can......

In the end, it's just not a point of discussion that comes up with my peers, and the passion gets amplified here by a select few who have a somewhat myopic view on the subject of film sound....

I'm a big picture guy...

And again, I applaud what you've done.... It shows how truly dedicated you are to the art of film sound. smile.gif
As always Marc, I appreciate your input and insights.

I've also considered the cost-benefit ratio of seeking the 'Reference capable to 3Hz' goal that the rare few have attained or are seeking, and realizinf that at this time, with the rarity of the capability coupled with the rarity of the tracks that would fully utilize that capability, I've held off on that undertaking.

That said, my setup does delve down to single digit Hz and I DO appreciate the occasional surprise of the few tracks that come out that make use of that capability.

Your post above though, triggered my curiosity. You mentioned that you don't actively look to filter ELF/ULF effects if they're there, but make no specific effort to ensure that there are any ELF/ULF effects.

I'm still not completely clear about the workings of the industry, but would this rough analogy below, be somewhere in the ballpark?

As the mixer, you're basically like the chef, taking the list of ingredients provided and mixing them all together in just the right proportions that you see fit to produce the final dish. The ingredients are produced/provided by someone with a different job title.

Now if the ingredients included some ULF spice, you don't particularly make an effort to specifically strain/filter it out, but if it's not among the ingredients, you're not too concerned as most folks/venues won't be able to savor it anyway.

Does that mean that someone like Randy Thom for instance, instructs whoever is producing the list of ingredients, to specifically add quantities of ULF spice to the list of ingredients?

I'm just curious as to which position in the chain is responsible for the presence or absence of ULF in a mix, and in some cases a common abundance of it, or as with the BD release of The Hobbit:An Unexpected Journey, a marked lack of much bass at all.


Max
post #13222 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Thanks! Man I just had the 2nd one shipped here not too long ago, 2,000 miles for each one to get here. I wish I lived where your at, the company is in Mineral Ridge, Ohio. I wonder how far that is from where you live

Good to know that bit of info. I am not from here originally, I am from CA so any info about AV companies I can check out locally is a plus.

Thanks!
post #13223 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornSlippyZ View Post

I was debating getting this flick but you have convinced me to buy it!

I went back and watched the whole movie and the bass is just amazing! nice low powerful bass throughout the whole movie.

it really is a must have imo
post #13224 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

I know this is slightly OT. But why when I watch FotP plane roll my back right speaker (a small psb b4) the woofer flutters like crazy. Is there That much Ido in the surrounds and that low?! I have it crossed over at 100. I was like wtf!!! The excursion for that tiny driver was bad. I had never noticed it before.

My apologies to post this, it reads like your subs are too hot and can't handle the load and you're trying to dig below their capabilities. Reads like you're demanding more out of the subs then they're capable of and your sound system will benefit from upgrading to a third XS30 or the next tier of subwoofers. Maybe it's time to buy another pair and stack them.

(and yes, that bass wave on the roll is why we're doing what we do. and I love the howl when the prop nut unwinds. now that's what I'm talking about. biggrin.gif)

-
post #13225 of 16120
I think he's talking about the back speaker, not a sub.
post #13226 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

I went back and watched the whole movie and the bass is just amazing! nice low powerful bass throughout the whole movie.

it really is a must have imo

I love horror films and since this movie is on the Master List of Bass it will fit my BD library nicely! I have seen this movie on Tv but never in the BD format.

Good thing I just ordered it because Amazon only has 13 left of this movie on BD.
post #13227 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

I know this is slightly OT. But why when I watch FotP plane roll my back right speaker (a small psb b4) the woofer flutters like crazy. Is there That much Ido in the surrounds and that low?! I have it crossed over at 100. I was like wtf!!! The excursion for that tiny driver was bad. I had never noticed it before.

Btw I was demoing at -5db MV
It's only in that one speaker? I'd say step one is swapping that surround with another one. Play the scene again and watch them. If the phenomenon moved with the speaker, there's something going on with that particular speaker. If it stayed at back right, then it's something in the signal going to that position. Further diagnosis can happen from there, but that will at least get you thinking in the right direction.
post #13228 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

I know this is slightly OT. But why when I watch FotP plane roll my back right speaker (a small psb b4) the woofer flutters like crazy. Is there That much Ido in the surrounds and that low?! I have it crossed over at 100. I was like wtf!!! The excursion for that tiny driver was bad. I had never noticed it before.

Btw I was demoing at -5db MV

I blew up two surround speakers watching FOTP at reference. I had an THX 80hz crossover and the speakers were THX certified. I think it is during some kind of wind effect. Anyways, I upgraded the surrounds and no problems anymore. It could have been that the speaker was on it's way out and needed a little push as well. They were old speakers.
post #13229 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

I think he's talking about the back speaker, not a sub.

Yes, you're correct. I read woofer and went to subwoofer.

(in that case, ignore anything I had to post about in my last post in this thread)
post #13230 of 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Dave.. again, please stop with your insinuations about my bias's, etc.

You don't know me, and you most certainly don't know anything about my professional reputation and industry standing.

I've gotten more PM's from AVS members who are in the industry.

There is a reason why none of them decide to engage with you on this or any of your other threads..

Randy is an amazing designer, and a fantastic mixer.... 20 years ago I had the pleasure of having him mix a film for me when I was a supervising sound editor..

One morning I happened to come out on the front "porch" at Skywlaker (where we were mixing...)

We started talking about "Forrest Gum," and we talked about why that film has nothing in the surrounds, etc...

He said to me something that had a great impact on me... "Marc, the secret to my design is reverb and low end..."

So while my work may not always have the opportunity to showcase low end (oh, and I did mix Eps 6 and 8 of "The Pacific" and "We Were Soldiers"") your conclusions about how I deal with bandwidth, etc, are greatly off track.

You only seem to be able to enjoy soundtracks looking through the measurements and graphs... I've made some great sounding tracks, and you can only disparage me for the lack of 10Hz of con tent....

IMO, that's fine, but you seem to be depriving yourself of the bigger picture..

Again, I don't need to argue why I don't seek out to create ULF in my films.. I don't filter what is given to me, and don't ask for more when presented with tracks..

I simply don't feel I need to cater to you and the privilege vocal few who can reproduce single digit frequencies and then "call me out" when I don't deliver, for whatever reason... it's my opinion, and I don't care if you think it's right or wrong.

You need to get over it, and stop making disparaging comments about me and my "bias" in public.

Good day.

Marc,

Yes, I need a disparaging remarks tutor. I apologize for any that you took personally. Your comments are not unique on this subject. The reaction they evoke is a general one to all such posts.

I'll only ask from you in return to practice what you preach in this regard. smile.gif

You've told me, in public, that I'm "the only one making a big deal out of this", "... one of a select few with myopic vision...", with follow ups like "Have fun on your crusade". Now, please don't try to excuse that sort of thing as having any other meaning than what you intended it to have. I tend to lob that sort of grenade back over the fence. That part of me is not likely to change.

Here is what I find confusing and wish we could get to the bottom of it and move on:

What started our exchange was when you scolded me for suggesting that your industry should be able to monitor all content. The gist was "If you can do it, then certainly we can too". Great. The next leg of the debate had you telling me that sometimes the SDs are responsible for bandwidth and sometimes "we" are, which meant yourself and your colleagues. More great. So, you "easily" have the ability to build a monitor system that covers the full bandwidth of content (with, as you put it "hundreds of options") and you have the ability to add it when you might feel it adds something.

What followed is what leads me to use the word 'bias'.
Quote:
My personal option is that I'm not going to spend extra resources creating material I can't properly reproduce in a majority of venues where it will be reproduced
Quote:
I don't get rid of it, but I also don't concern myself with the lack of it on the films I work on. In the end, there are so many more things in soundtracks that add to the experience than ULF almost no one can reproduce.
Quote:
I was looking at the discussion as it relates to the translation between dubbing stages and commercial cinemas.
Quote:
I'm not going to answer the bold question because we've been down this road too many times to count, and then people like Tim point out how much better their rooms are and we should all cater to that ideal.

That position presupposed the notion that everyone thinks that ULF content is valuable in capture, playback and reproduction... that conclusion is an opinion, and not a fact.
Quote:
I had a long talk the other day with our chief engineer about many things (including some of the distortion on "Immortals") and the subject of ULF came up...

He pointed out some of the reasons it not only doesn't matter for him, but in his extremely informed opinion (a 20 year engineer, studio building and mixer to boot) it can cause issues with the audible portion of LFE content...

Once again, just because you now have the ability to monitor below 18Hz at home, I am of the, unpopular on this thread as it might be, opinion that if you are interested in hearing the films as intended you would follow what you know to be our tuning, knowing full well how most every theater and dub stage is designed and tuned.


My reading and comprehension skills are high enough. I dislike having to posts quotes but you continue to post as though you haven't shown this obvious bias. BTW, bias is not an insult. It's simply an observation. In this case, an obvious one. My bias is toward a certain product you industry offers. Your bias seems to me the disparaging one in that it justifies telling me that I'm in such a small minority as to be irrelevant.

I read your posts to me and others, regarding <20 Hz content, as saying that you easily could but personally think it's a waste of time and money so you don't because those who've asked you about it are just a crusading vocal minority who only represent <0.5% of the consumers of your industries product and instead you follow some spec we should look up that caters to cinema systems and be happy with that. I'm sure there's a prettier way to sum it up, but I'm not a poet, nor do I want to study to become one.

Keeping in mind that we're in probably the largest subwoofer, bass and transducer forum in the world, in the New Master List Of Bass In Movies With Frequency Charts thread, if your posts don't represent bias, please help me get what I've obviously been missing in your responses to us 0.5%ers.

I would like to add that the combined threads (original List and New List) have millions of hits, tens of thousands of posts, cover thousands of titles and is 8 years old and running. There is no Movies That Use The Other 20,000 Hz thread but if there were I think we can safely assume the stats. In this forum, we are not the minority and extremely appreciated around the world for our efforts.
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