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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 84

post #2491 of 8166
2/2/12 at 12:14pm
Is it just me or are Flageborg's input levels severely clipped on the speclab graphs for FOTP? I wouldn't make too many assumptions on B-Ray vs DVD on FOTP until we have a proper sleclab graph.
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post #2492 of 8166
2/2/12 at 1:02pm
i was thinking the same thing because i know there was an argument in here stating that most of his graphs are clipped but i thought that was rectified and that was why people were accepting his graphs.........but glad to see it isnt just me, i thought i was the only crazy one.
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post #2493 of 8166
2/2/12 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by raffin View Post

Is it just me or are Flageborg's input levels severely clipped on the speclab graphs for FOTP? I wouldn't make too many assumptions on B-Ray vs DVD on FOTP until we have a proper sleclab graph.

Can you point out what makes his levels clipped? I do not have spec lab and I would like to try and understand.
Thanks
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post #2494 of 8166
2/2/12 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Interesting. Can you set the LFE channel above 0 dB (AKA no cut)? I can set my LFE channel level down from 0 dB, but I can not raise it above 0 dB. Note that I assume that you are not talking about the subwoofer output level.

Not sure how your LFE adjustment helps with the control of infra in a lot of cases. A lot of movies have infra recorded only on the main channels and not on the LFE channel.







Yup, Fox seems to be doing something with the real low end by intent. Not sure why some people think that SpectrumLab may be off. SL only reports the results of what frequencies exist on the recording subject to the end user setup of SL.

I don't own the new FOTP on DVD / Bluray, so I can't check either version out.

Oh yeah, I meant the subwoofer output. I haven't seen any audio component that allows the LFE to be boosted relative but they should... just in case. Still.... if one find that one codec has more bass than another, it's a simple fix.

There are all sorts of different components in peoples computers and there are many, MANY ways for software to alter how audio is processed. Even if you see some DD/DTS decoding going on, there can be other things going on behind the scenes that the operator may not be aware of. Sorry, I'm not completely convinced that something that goes into SL is completely perfect. Just like good room/speaker/sub measurements, it's easier to get things wrong then it is doing things correctly.

I don't own FotP on either format to check but I remember the dvd (rented) was pretty insane during that crash sequence.
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post #2495 of 8166
2/2/12 at 1:58pm
To me the crash sequence was the only part I really enjoyed. I still prefer the original (not for bass just enjoyment lol)
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post #2496 of 8166
2/2/12 at 2:04pm
The bluray seems just as intense to me. I may have to play the DVD and Bluray back to back.
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post #2497 of 8166
2/2/12 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbender View Post

Can you point out what makes his levels clipped? I do not have spec lab and I would like to try and understand.
Thanks



Below is a waterfall of Flight of the Phoenix 1963. The amplitude graph is located on the right hand side. 100% equates to 0 dBFS, which is the maximum digital level of the A/D conveter in the soundcard.

Clipping is not the main issue, but I try to stay away from the clipping point anyways. What I try to do on each capture is set my peak level to be near 50%, which equates to - 6dB FS. That way you can somewhat compare DVD-A to DVD-B to DVD-C. Peak levels are always in the same ballpark.




Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

To me the crash sequence was the only part I really enjoyed. I still prefer the original (not for bass just enjoyment lol)



I also like the 1963 version.

Flight of the Phoenix 1963.

Kind of limited bandwidth. Left is the left channel, and right is the right channel. 2-channel Stereo movie.



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post #2498 of 8166
2/2/12 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

There are all sorts of different components in peoples computers and there are many, MANY ways for software to alter how audio is processed. Even if you see some DD/DTS decoding going on, there can be other things going on behind the scenes that the operator may not be aware of. Sorry, I'm not completely convinced that something that goes into SL is completely perfect. Just like good room/speaker/sub measurements, it's easier to get things wrong then it is doing things correctly.


If you feed your soundcard from your AVR, then there is not that much you can screw up as long as you do not clip. How you setup the colors is a subjective issue. I setup brightness and contrast the way that I like, and others setup the way that they like.

SL is also useful to look for ground loops that you can not hear but you can measure!
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post #2499 of 8166
2/2/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Below is a waterfall of Flight of the Phoenix 1963. The amplitude graph is located on the right hand side. 100% equates to 0 dBFS, which is the maximum digital level of the A/D conveter in the soundcard.

Clipping is not the main issue, but I try to stay away from the clipping point anyways. What I try to do on each capture is set my peak level to be near 50%, which equates to - 6dB FS. That way you can somewhat compare DVD-A to DVD-B to DVD-C. Peak levels are always in the same ballpark.








I also like the 1963 version.

Flight of the Phoenix 1963.

Kind of limited bandwidth. Left is the left channel, and right is the right channel. 2-channel Stereo movie.




Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you feed your soundcard from your AVR, then there is not that much you can screw up as long as you do not clip. How you setup the colors is a subjective issue. I setup brightness and contrast the way that I like, and others setup the way that they like.

SL is also useful to look for ground loops that you can not hear but you can measure!

it looks like Flagborg has the DVD at apx. 100 and the BD at apx 40-50. So it is not an apples to apples comparison, correct?
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post #2500 of 8166
2/2/12 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you feed your soundcard from your AVR, then there is not that much you can screw up as long as you do not clip. How you setup the colors is a subjective issue. I setup brightness and contrast the way that I like, and others setup the way that they like.

SL is also useful to look for ground loops that you can not hear but you can measure!

I hear ya but I'm not all hung up on colors, mate. You gotta understand that there are a million different configurations of a basic computer. There could be all sorts of different drivers in effect that can do all sorts of things to the audio. Who knows if this is a direct feed from an internal BD player, rip or hooked up from a player and feed through an analog input. There are thousands of things that can be screwed up before you even get a chance to clip the signal.

JPC, I'm not trying to be a d**k (not like I have to 'try' ) but just take a quick glance in plane-jane windows audio settings, preferences, options, what have you and you'll see that there are tabs that can be ticked to make output audio different from one system to another even with identical components. Whew. Sorry, as an 'audio guy' who uses Windows, I see it all too often. Let's not forget that this is a A/V science site where many users may very tinker with computer software including drivers that may stack or override one another. It's not just the matter of SL sees what or not because even in SL you can have many options of how you want to input whatever audio you are trying to analyze.

Sorry. It's just not as simple as that.
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post #2501 of 8166
2/2/12 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbender View Post

it looks like Flagborg has the DVD at apx. 100 and the BD at apx 40-50. So it is not an apples to apples comparison, correct?



Flagborg has his record levels set to high as seen on his amplitude graph. Both the DVD and Bluray peak at 100%, so they may be an apples to apples comparison.


My waterfall is for a different movie. My waterfall is from the original 1963 version of Flight of the Phoenix, so it is not an apples to apples comparison of Flagborg's waterfalls for sure.

Still, no need to set levels so high that you are near the clipping point (the 100% area). One must note that even when you clip lightly, you may not see it on the waterfall. Soundcard AGC may kick in to prevent clipping.
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post #2502 of 8166
2/2/12 at 3:46pm
Re Flageborg's FOTP plots: could the seemingly filtered BD plot be a result of only the core part of the codec being used?

Flageborg?
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post #2503 of 8166
2/2/12 at 3:52pm
No. Being lossless or not should not effect the bass extension at all.

Well, unless we want to get really nitpicky. DTS @ 768kbps on dvd had a sharp rolloff (actually seen in Flage's dvd plot for FotP) at 15khz.
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post #2504 of 8166
2/2/12 at 4:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I hear ya but I'm not all hung up on colors, mate. You gotta understand that there are a million different configurations of a basic computer. There could be all sorts of different drivers in effect that can do all sorts of things to the audio. Who knows if this is a direct feed from an internal BD player, rip or hooked up from a player and feed through an analog input. There are thousands of things that can be screwed up before you even get a chance to clip the signal.


Thousands?

Millions?

Hey, this is not rocket science. My PC is getting on in years, but there is not that much I can touch and still have a working audio system. As long as I can copy movies from cable I am happy with what I have (no bluray).

There are plenty of people who can not get SL to work for some reason. But if we stick with people who have a working version of SL, I have seen no evidence of anything out of line with the resukts that I get via SL. Then again, it did take a while to get my settings right.

I know what Flageborg does because I asked him. I know what Bosso does because I asked him. If I want to know waht others do exactly, I just have to ask.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

JPC, I'm not trying to be a d**k (not like I have to 'try' ) but just take a quick glance in plane-jane windows audio settings, preferences, options, what have you and you'll see that there are tabs that can be ticked to make output audio different from one system to another even with identical components. Whew. Sorry, as an 'audio guy' who uses Windows, I see it all too often. Let's not forget that this is a A/V science site where many users may very tinker with computer software including drivers that may stack or override one another. It's not just the matter of SL sees what or not because even in SL you can have many options of how you want to input whatever audio you are trying to analyze.

Sorry. It's just not as simple as that.


It is just as simple as that in most cases as long as you know what you are doing. People who have no idea what they are doing do not post waterfalls. For that matterm people who do know what they are doing do not post that many waterfalls either!

What do you have to work with at a minimum?

A PC soundcard with an audio input cable if an AVR analog input is used..

A DD decoder if a PC based DVD drive is used. No decoder required for a CD.

The appropriate decoder for Bluray if internal to PC. My PC is way too slow for that, so analog in for Bluray in my case.

A working version of SL.

An appropriate test DVD/CD is nice to have to check things out!


Now there are soundcards and there are soundcards but if you can get TrueRTA, REW and SL to work on your PC, then what is the issue? You have to be able to find the souncard software to set the mixer, but that is up to the user to figure out. If you can play a CD and play a DVD with DD decode, then you should be all set to go if you know what you are doing.
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post #2505 of 8166
2/2/12 at 4:17pm
JPC, simple question: do you run Windows XP, Vista or Win7?

If XP.... are you aware of how huge of a change audio in general went thru when Vista came out? If this is new to you and you are still in the XP era, I'd highly suggest reading up on the subject because audio (and how soundcards interact with) in Win7 is very different from how it used to be.

Btw, just cuz someone is posted waterfalls from SL that doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Clipping much? Exactly and it can be that simple or crazy complex. Not all soundcards are made alike. Some have rolloff that must be compensated for. You need a decoder for DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA and they are not all authored the same, unfortunately. Nobody is plotting cd's so we can ignore that. However, anyone can install some audio driver that does all sorts of things including crazy EQ, upsampling and blah blah blah. The possibilities are endless. Thousands, millions? Ummm yeah. Have you ever looked at how many motherboards are out there? Compound that by a large assortment of soundcards, operating systems, drivers, updates. Even videocards are handling audio these days. Omg, yes! There are millions of combinations of computer hardware/software that can make all sorts of results come up in SL.

It may sound like a bunch of hubbub and I'm not trying to spit out noise. It's the unfortunate truth when we're talking about multi-channel audio from a computer. It's not like a HT system although it can be easier these days with HDMI to get one integrated into an HT system.

Seriously, JPC, I'm not trying to be a jerk but if you are not familiar with the HUGE changes wrt audio in a Windows environment (Vista/Win7) then you really got to go read up on it because things are not the same anymore.
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post #2506 of 8166
2/2/12 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

No. Being lossless or not should not effect the bass extension at all.

I agree that it shouldn't but do we know if there are standards in place to prevent it from happening on core-vs-full tracks?

(To clarify: my question is not about the perceived or actual quality of lossy-vs-lossless codecs, whether in theory or practice; it merely concerns the manner in which the core vs the full part of a HD sound track is created.)
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post #2507 of 8166
2/2/12 at 4:44pm
Well... I'm not super clear on how Dolby TrueHD (Meridian Lossless Packing) deals with core and lossless but with DTS-HD Master Audio it's pretty easy.

We know that regular DTS is 'lossy' as in, it drops content that is supposed to be inaudible to consume less space/bandwidth. Let's keep it there and simple. DTS-HD Master Audio (the lossless part) is attached to the lossy core and is just the content that would have been thrown away.

Easy as this:

DTS core + HD lossless content = PCM
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post #2508 of 8166
2/2/12 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

Real Steel is the real deal. I can't see this one being anything other than a five star. Every single time the robots were on screen, my hair was moving and the couch was shaking.

It's movies like this that make me glad I went to the trouble of building the tapped horns. Need to take the rental copy back tomorrow and go get myself the Blu-Ray next time I'm in the city. Didn't hurt that the movie itself was better than I was expecting. Although still not that great - I mean, come on... a soldering gun on a small PCB? You fail electronics class, Evangeline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

I vote 4 star for real steel. Good LFE but not very deep and high level at the same time. 5 stars would be same as Cloverfield and WotW and I dont think RS is anywhere close to that. A couple of very good scenes though in the movie, but, I want more of them for a higher score.
Movie was much better than expected though.

I'll vote 4 or possibly 4.5 stars for Real Steel as well. It was Great but having recently watched Percy Jackson Lightning Thief, I dont feel it's quite a 5 star bass flick.

Anyone seen Drive yet? It had some very impressive, albeit few, gun shots!
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post #2509 of 8166
2/2/12 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

JPC, simple question: do you run Windows XP, Vista or Win7?

If XP.... are you aware of how huge of a change audio in general went thru when Vista came out? If this is new to you and you are still in the XP era, I'd highly suggest reading up on the subject because audio (and how soundcards interact with) in Win7 is very different from how it used to be.

Btw, just cuz someone is posted waterfalls from SL that doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Clipping much? Exactly and it can be that simple or crazy complex. Not all soundcards are made alike. Some have rolloff that must be compensated for. You need a decoder for DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA and they are not all authored the same, unfortunately. Nobody is plotting cd's so we can ignore that. However, anyone can install some audio driver that does all sorts of things including crazy EQ, upsampling and blah blah blah. The possibilities are endless. Thousands, millions? Ummm yeah. Have you ever looked at how many motherboards are out there? Compound that by a large assortment of soundcards, operating systems, drivers, updates. Even videocards are handling audio these days. Omg, yes! There are millions of combinations of computer hardware/software that can make all sorts of results come up in SL.

It may sound like a bunch of hubbub and I'm not trying to spit out noise. It's the unfortunate truth when we're talking about multi-channel audio from a computer. It's not like a HT system although it can be easier these days with HDMI to get one integrated into an HT system.

Seriously, JPC, I'm not trying to be a jerk but if you are not familiar with the HUGE changes wrt audio in a Windows environment (Vista/Win7) then you really got to go read up on it because things are not the same anymore.


Still have Windows XP, but that is not a major issue for most of my programs. If and when I update my PC to a new unit, then I will get the windows version that has the Widows XP capabilty built in (at extra cost). Some of my programs may not work properly on Windows 7. Does SL work on Windows 7?

One can make life difficult for oneself, or one can make life easy. Assuming that one can get SL to work on the latest windows version (now and in future), the only thing that you need to get SL to work properly is a stereo analog audio input plugged into a properly working soundcard.

All one has to do is plug a cable into your AVR. All the needed decoders are built into the Bluray player and AVR. Now if one wants to turn their PC into a HT setup, they can be my guest.


Test signals are available from REW and other programs. Can be used direct or recorded on CD, DVD, whatever.

Test results of FR for my PC system via SL. Seems to be flat to 10 hz. I perform a similar test for TrueRTA.


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post #2510 of 8166
2/2/12 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If you feed your soundcard from your AVR, then there is not that much you can screw up as long as you do not clip.

Sound cards don't have a flat response.

Bosso
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post #2511 of 8166
2/2/12 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post


I'll vote 4 or possibly 4.5 stars for Real Steel as well. It was Great but having recently watched Percy Jackson Lightning Thief, I dont feel it's quite a 5 star bass flick.

Anyone seen Drive yet? It had some very impressive, albeit few, gun shots!

Saw Drive last night. Had volume cranked up. All of a sudden at pawn shop scene, unexpected shotgun blast. Dual empires have wife practically messing herself and dogs breaking for the exit. Completely unexpected. Worth watching.
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post #2512 of 8166
2/2/12 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmnaas View Post

Saw Drive last night. Had volume cranked up. All of a sudden at pawn shop scene, unexpected shotgun blast. Dual empires have wife practically messing herself and dogs breaking for the exit. Completely unexpected. Worth watching.



I was going to watch it tomorrow night! You spoiled the surprise!


Ian
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post #2513 of 8166
2/2/12 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post




I was going to watch it tomorrow night! You spoiled the surprise!

Ian

No I didn't. Take my word. You will enjoy.
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post #2514 of 8166
2/3/12 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Sound cards don't have a flat response.

Bosso



Tee hee. Is that one of those "not flat to DC" comments?

Everything depends on the specific soundcard being used. Regardless, the soundcard in question must be FR tested to see how flat it is.

My internal PC soundcard (meaning dedicated soundcard - not "on board" sound) measures pretty flat to 10 Hz as is. For TrueRTA I use the soundcard loopback system calibration to generate correction factors. SL has no similar easy to use function.

The REW generated test signals are flat as far as I know, and even with SL (no soundcard correction) my system measures flat to about 10 Hz then shows a roll off. The SL waterfall above clearly shows the sub 10 Hz low frequency roll off (assuming the REW test signal is flat to DC). The green calibration line in the upper spectrogram is flat to 10 hz!
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post #2515 of 8166
2/3/12 at 1:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Sound cards don't have a flat response.

Bosso


I might add this question. What soundcard (internal/external) do you use to generate your SL waterfalls? Is it is flat to DC with no compensation?
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post #2516 of 8166
2/3/12 at 3:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Nobody is plotting cd's so we can ignore that.



How is your SL waterfall with this "reference recorded" test file?

http://www.kringlyd.no/kalibrering/k...se_inphase.rar
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post #2517 of 8166
2/3/12 at 5:32am
Kind of off topic, but bass related nonetheless....

iPhone app. Called 'Fireworks Show'.

Here's the show on its own:



And with a 'finale' done with quick tapping:



This thing pulls no punches.....for best audio quality, use something like a SendStation to send line out and not headphone out...

JSS
LL
LL
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post #2518 of 8166
2/3/12 at 5:39am
How is your SL waterfall with this "reference recorded" test file?

TEST CD - Test CD - 16 - Pink Noise In Phase, -10 Db
http://www.kringlyd.no/kalibrering/T...20-10%20Db.rar


Here is my Player...




And here is my waterfall - Amplitude Bar 100%




And here is my waterfall - Amplitude Bar 50%


LL
LL
LL
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post #2519 of 8166
2/3/12 at 5:40am
For reference, Tom Danley's Fireworks Finale:



JSS
LL
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post #2520 of 8166
2/3/12 at 8:00am
Just watched Real Steel last night and the robot bass effects were pretty good...
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