The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 122

Originally Posted by tvuong


I watched the first 5-10 mins of it and it had some good intense bass. I plan to watch the whole movie tonite. What do you mean by 'too much for your Outlaw'? Did it distort?

Originally Posted by maxmercy

there is simply NO economic incentive to go 1Hz lower, as much as some of us would want it.....

JSS

Originally Posted by mojomike

it's like a tasty hot dog. Maybe it's better not to get overly concerned about what goes into it. If it tastes good, enjoy.

Originally Posted by jchong

This exchange between bossobass and FilmMixer has been interesting.

I see a few people above (like JHAz and maxmercy and RMK!) seeming to support the notion that the low, low bass content isn't important and this is indirectly in defense of what FilmMixer wrote. From the enthusiast's point of view, this appears to me to be a major paradigm shift here on AVS. In the past have we not seen many enthusiasts pushing the envelope of bass reproduction, people like bossobass, MKtheater, notnyt... whenever these guys talk about their equipment and rooms and post graphs showing FR graphs down to the single-digits and how loud they can go, everybody goes "ooh" and "aaah". Nowadays we also have many owners of multiple uber-subs, multiples of PB13s, Submersives, Captivators, etc... many also which can hit the low teens or high single-digits with headroom to spare.

In general these systems are praised and everybody seems to want to shoot for these targets. Yes, the vast majority of people don't have the means or space to do it, but it remains a dream, a dream that many live vicariously through the posts of the members with these uber sub systems.

Correspondingly, with these systems the enthusiasts want to look for content that will justify these systems. Hence isn't that the whole point of this thread? People talking about movies with great bass. Listening is just not enough and there are many calls for graphs to be posted of monster scenes. When the SpecLab or what-have-you chart shows strong bass below 20Hz (or even better below 10Hz) everybody goes "whoa" and there's a rush to buy the title or rent it. Similarly when there is a filter in place (infamously with M&C) everybody expresses their disappointment with the release.

I mean generally isn't this the view portrayed on AVS? People aiming for the best bass reproduction system and best bass movies?

Now we learn that the standards used in mixing don't really require such deep, deep bass reproduction. My impression from reading what FilmMixer said is that if you have a system that does down to 20Hz well, that is sufficient to reproduce what the mixers intended. If this is so, then suddenly the targets have changed. No longer do we need to lust after systems that go down to 10Hz. To me that part of it is huge because it is a paradigm shift from what we've come to expect.

Another huge part is that we thought that some of these uber low sound effects (as evidenced by the many SpecLab graphs posted before) were deliberately mixed in. Like an Easter Egg thrown in by the mixers for those enthusiasts with the mega sub bass systems. Now we learn that these might be artifacts or unintended. To me that was quite a revelation.

Again I do thank FilmMixer for sharing his views. I helps me to understand the industry practice and standards. It also causes me to review my expectations and what I should aim for.

Originally Posted by tvuong

I watched the first 5-10 mins of it and it had some good intense bass. I plan to watch the whole movie tonite. What do you mean by 'too much for your Outlaw'? Did it distort?

Originally Posted by maxmercy

jchong,

I am in the 'love the bass' minority, and love all the releases where clean, ULF is included. I picked up Underworld:Awakening on Redbox today to see how it does (please no clipping...). I can go to 15Hz, but distortion limits me below that, so I highpass (unfortunately).

I think the sound designers may include the ULF as easter eggs, especially if the sound design rooms are small and outfitted with big sealed subs. It may be very intentional, and that makes me happy, even if the mix stage is unaware due to lack of capability.

But thinking that we can influence an industry into spending millions of dollars equipping all mix facilities to a new spec (I'm talking more spent on insulating ULF bleed than actually getting the output), is kinda far fetched. Would I like it to happen? Yes and no. Yes, in that some mixers may go to town with ULF effects. No, in that some mixers/directors/whoever may want the film to be mixed for the 'majority' of theaters, and cut out the ULF, or for a 'home' mix, because the majority cannot reach down to 20Hz. THAT scares me more than the blissful ignorance that may exist now, due to the spec.

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

max...

Avengers did not get filtered at all.

And thanks for the kind words

I am truly lucky to be a part of this business.

And I am truly lucky to have a place like AVS to learn from, contribute to and rely upon to continuously amaze me.

Originally Posted by pokekevin

Good post!

Originally Posted by jchong


Great to know about Avengers. Really looking forward to the bluray release.

Some questions Marc... when you do your work on the stage what level do you monitor at? It is at reference level? Or do you play it softer than that?

Is hearing health one of the occupational hazards for you guys?

Originally Posted by javanpohl

Yeah, it distorted on several scenes. I've only had it do that once so far, on the Kremlin explosion scene in Ghost Protocol

Originally Posted by wingnut4772

Good lawd the bass on Underworld Awakening is ridiculous..

Originally Posted by maxmercy

jchong,

I am in the 'love the bass' minority, and love all the releases where clean, ULF is included. I picked up Underworld:Awakening on Redbox today to see how it does (please no clipping...). I can go to 15Hz, but distortion limits me below that, so I highpass (unfortunately).

I think the sound designers may include the ULF as easter eggs, especially if the sound design rooms are small and outfitted with big sealed subs. It may be very intentional, and that makes me happy, even if the mix stage is unaware due to lack of capability.

But thinking that we can influence an industry into spending millions of dollars equipping all mix facilities to a new spec (I'm talking more spent on insulating ULF bleed than actually getting the output), is kinda far fetched. Would I like it to happen? Yes and no. Yes, in that some mixers may go to town with ULF effects. No, in that some mixers/directors/whoever may want the film to be mixed for the 'majority' of theaters, and cut out the ULF, or for a 'home' mix, because the majority cannot reach down to 20Hz. THAT scares me more than the blissful ignorance that may exist now, due to the spec.

Remember, Stanley Kubrick had ALL of his films mixed in MONO, so that he would know how his film would look and sound in the least well equipped of theaters.....George Lucas' Stag screening theater only goes to 25Hz, IIRC.

As far as IMAX, I dunno. I know the Chicago IMAX was re-equipped with Danley TH50s and they got response down to 10Hz (not sure how many dB down or THD at that freq, but they claim it, even though the TH50 is a 20Hz tapped horn). I use two 15" loaded 22Hz folded horns and due to using them less than full tilt, I can boost below 22Hz and use room gain to get solid output to 15Hz. Eventually I will move to eight 15" drivers and hopefully get flat down to 10Hz, but the quest will likely end there, and what I get below is what I get, until I move into a different house or something.

The IMAX where I live really had an anemic low end, but I was about 8 rows from the top. I imagine ten rows up from the bottom center would get some pretty decent slam.....just due to -6dB/doubling. I SINCERELY HOPE Avengers does not get the THOR treatment. There are moments in that film that BEG for sub-20Hz content. Please tell me that blowing the six 18" drivers during mixing didn't make the mix team highpass the whole flick......fingers CROSSED.

JSS

PS - FilmMixer's insight is awesome. I feel very privileged having him contribute here; like having an 'inside look' into some of the parts of movie-making we love....

By the same token, I have learned so much from Bosso and consider him a friend, even if he gets really enthusiastic at times. I see his point. I see FilmMixer's point. I kind of live in the middle. I see the economics of scale working against changing the spec, but I love ULF, and films that do it right....

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

max...

Avengers did not get filtered at all.

And thanks for the kind words

I am truly lucky to be a part of this business.

And I am truly lucky to have a place like AVS to learn from, contribute to and rely upon to continuously amaze me.

Originally Posted by maxmercy

http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html#download

Newest version is 2.77

JSS

Good to see you back DrP!

Originally Posted by maxmercy


I know a lot of films will depend on the room and particular resonances of walls/furniture, but the Sonic Cannon scene in The Incredible Hulk is still the best single scene I have ever experienced in my room. It makes people want to simply run for cover, thinking the room is gonna collapse.

JSS

Originally Posted by jchong

This exchange between bossobass and FilmMixer has been interesting.

I see a few people above (like JHAz and maxmercy and RMK!) seeming to support the notion that the low, low bass content isn't important and this is indirectly in defense of what FilmMixer wrote. From the enthusiast's point of view, this appears to me to be a major paradigm shift here on AVS. In the past have we not seen many enthusiasts pushing the envelope of bass reproduction, people like bossobass, MKtheater, notnyt... whenever these guys talk about their equipment and rooms and post graphs showing FR graphs down to the single-digits and how loud they can go, everybody goes "ooh" and "aaah". Nowadays we also have many owners of multiple uber-subs, multiples of PB13s, Submersives, Captivators, etc... many also which can hit the low teens or high single-digits with headroom to spare.

In general these systems are praised and everybody seems to want to shoot for these targets. Yes, the vast majority of people don't have the means or space to do it, but it remains a dream, a dream that many live vicariously through the posts of the members with these uber sub systems.

Correspondingly, with these systems the enthusiasts want to look for content that will justify these systems. Hence isn't that the whole point of this thread? People talking about movies with great bass. Listening is just not enough and there are many calls for graphs to be posted of monster scenes. When the SpecLab or what-have-you chart shows strong bass below 20Hz (or even better below 10Hz) everybody goes "whoa" and there's a rush to buy the title or rent it. Similarly when there is a filter in place (infamously with M&C) everybody expresses their disappointment with the release.

I mean generally isn't this the view portrayed on AVS? People aiming for the best bass reproduction system and best bass movies?

Now we learn that the standards used in mixing don't really require such deep, deep bass reproduction. My impression from reading what FilmMixer said is that if you have a system that does down to 20Hz well, that is sufficient to reproduce what the mixers intended. If this is so, then suddenly the targets have changed. No longer do we need to lust after systems that go down to 10Hz. To me that part of it is huge because it is a paradigm shift from what we've come to expect.

Another huge part is that we thought that some of these uber low sound effects (as evidenced by the many SpecLab graphs posted before) were deliberately mixed in. Like an Easter Egg thrown in by the mixers for those enthusiasts with the mega sub bass systems. Now we learn that these might be artifacts or unintended. To me that was quite a revelation.

Again I do thank FilmMixer for sharing his views. I helps me to understand the industry practice and standards. It also causes me to review my expectations and what I should aim for.

Originally Posted by RMK!

I am surprised that this information was such a revelation for you, but I think your last sentence is a good takeaway . I like ULF effects to the extent that my system can produce them. It has never been my goal to reproduce significant <15Hz content. Like most people, I prefer films that are interesting and have a good story, visuals and audio. I like the fact that I can play at reference levels and that my audio gear is well matched to do so. Bass is part of the equation (and a very fun part) but I strive for a good balance of the overall sound. When I see bottom heavy systems with huge LFE capability mated with low efficiency loudspeakers, I cringe.

It is and always has been my contention that tooling a system to reproduce <15Hz content is challenging but pointless considering the perhaps naturally occurring but unintended nature of these sounds. I know many here (emphasis on here) disagree and that is fine. Respectful discourse is one thing, but taking a hypercritical look at the work of professional sound engineers who grace these pages with their knowledge and approaches is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by MKtheater

That is just it though, it is not hard to do it, just takes multiple sealed subs with power and a boost depending on your room. No filters needed at all and you know everything on that disc is accounted for. It took me a minute to boost my low end and EQ my subs.

Originally Posted by mojomike

I too am happy with ref levels down to 14 or 15 hz or so. Getting deeper in my room would require many more subs, much more power, beefed up circuitry, etc. For me, I can't see sufficient benefit vs. the cost and hassle.