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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 138

post #4111 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Tron:Legacy...let's just say thanks for the DD2.0 track on the disc, as the HD audio track is so horribly clipped, I no longer even use it for demos...the visuals were too good on that film to have gotten such a horrible and unprofessional sonic treatment.
JSS
Srsly? You are the only person that I have read that doesnt think Tron is 5 star. There is a small amount of clipping that is barely audible (nothing like Immortals) and just the overall score is amazing IMO.
post #4112 of 16116
Tron sounded great to me. How can you tell if there's clipping?
post #4113 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

FM,
As one who spent a number of years on the exhibition side of your industry, I wholeheartedly agree. You already know this well, so I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the money crunch on the exhibition side of things arose from the greed of Hollywood studios in trying to wring as much money out of exhibitors as possible, and that lead to the demise of the "projectionist" profession. Theaters were able to make less and less from each new feature, and the new features had much less potential for subsequent re-viewing, so theaters were forced to eliminate the skilled projectionist positions and replace them with 16 year old kids who also sell you the popcorn. Theaters also have less money to invest in proper calibration of individual auditoriums, replacement of bulbs, refreshing sound equipment, treating the auditoriums, etc. As a result, many of the people over at Film-Tech (who I had quite a bit of interaction with at trade shows and on individual installs) end up being the knob jockeys who think they know what's best, when in fact they're often little more than internet loudmouths.
This was all supposed to be solved by the introduction of D cinema, but that ended up mostly being a new way to get blood out of a turnip for the big projection room equipment manufacturers. All their special financing deals on ridiculously expensive digital projection and content management systems has served to put theaters even more in the red in an attempt to keep up with the Joneses, and offer only a few benefits that are, again, contingent on the theaters keeping equipment and auditoriums up to snuff.
But, Hollywood doesn't really care, because great content doesn't sell - hype does. As long as they can make profits, there's really little to no incentive to pressure the exhibitors. The mean consumer often doesn't care about the sonic presentation, only the visual. And that's what the equipment manufacturers have banked on. Christie, Barco, Kinoton, Sony, MiT, etc. have, in my opinion, a short-sighted agenda of "sales now, address other exhibition issues later" that fits right in with Hollywood studio's agenda.
I wish you all the luck in the world in changing this philosophy to a more customer-centric and artistic presentation ideal, but you may find yourself making the art vs. profit argument to theaters. They're so financially screwed by the sliding scales on ticket sales and the need to upgrade equipment that they often can't turn a profit, no matter how hard they try to run everything else barebones. In that scenario, and in the case of having level adjustments still done manually, I just don't see a way to a positive outcome. But, because I fail to see it doesn't mean there isn't one!

I'm the first one to say it..

It's not show art, it's show business.

Remember however, that the studios also took a lot of financial responsibility in getting D-Cinema launched... it was by no means entirely on the backs of the exhibitors..

But I agree with almost all of your comments...

And that is why I am not coming at this as a "they need to invest capital to produce acceptable results.."

IMO, it's only a crusade to educated and bring the issue to light with the backing of my peers and the studios..

I don't expect any equipment changes, etc..

What I want is for my colleagues, the studios and the exhibitors to use what they have already as best they can.

While there may be some capital needed for calibrating, etc..... I'm not talking about embarking on a mission in trying to force them to do so..

I mean to start a discussion.. that's all..

If I'm loud, vocal and persistent, maybe I can start at least one small ripple in the current sea of indifference..

I'll let you all know how it proceeds.. my post was the basis for an email I sent to a bunch of my colleagues... I'll already gotten some responses. smile.gif
Quote:
Lastly, not to beat an off-topic dead horse, but many people assume that those who view movies before their street date are doing so illegally. This isn't necessarily the case, and I think perhaps those who think so might want to consider that they're looking a gift horse in the mouth with regards to this thread. smile.gif

I agree that it's not fair to accuse but most definitely raises red flags for some people... there are a few legitimate avenues to getting early BR's and DVD's.

But for the most part, it is indeed an illegitimate (but not illegal) practice for distributors to make them available to consumers pre-street date.
post #4114 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I agree that it's not fair to accuse but most definitely raises red flags for some people... there are a few legitimate avenues to getting early BR's and DVD's.
But for the most part, it is indeed an illegitimate (but not illegal) practice for distributors to make them available to consumers pre-street date.

Thank you FM for explaining that far better than I did. "Illegal" is a poor choice of words, one that was never meant as an accusation to anyone but referred only to the company selling the product. "Illegitimate" and poor business practice is more to the point: it's the company which is at fault, not the one innocently making the purchase.

And with that, I hope we can move on and discuss more bass. smile.gif
post #4115 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

Tron sounded great to me. How can you tell if there's clipping?

I also would like to see the evidence.
post #4116 of 16116
Maybe the levels at most theaters are set low because they are all multiplexes & too much sound would bleed into the theater next door. That would be annoying if you were watching a movie, & heard the bass from a show next door stepping on your soundtrack. That's why I rarely go to the movies myself. Much better sound on my home system. Plus pause for beer/bathroom breaks. Picture on my Kuro damn near as good too!
post #4117 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

Srsly? You are the only person that I have read that doesnt think Tron is 5 star. There is a small amount of clipping that is barely audible (nothing like Immortals) and just the overall score is amazing IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

Tron sounded great to me. How can you tell if there's clipping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I also would like to see the evidence.

Hey guys. This was discussed a bit here and in the BD software section when T:L came out on video.

Here's the first post with some measurements. Prod around the page before and after it for more info on the clipping in Legacy.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1310647/tron-legacy/570#post_20795722
post #4118 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottfox View Post

Maybe the levels at most theaters are set low because they are all multiplexes & too much sound would bleed into the theater next door. That would be annoying if you were watching a movie, & heard the bass from a show next door stepping on your soundtrack. That's why I rarely go to the movies myself. Much better sound on my home system. Plus pause for beer/bathroom breaks. Picture on my Kuro damn near as good too!

While that can certainly be an issue, I suspect it isn't the general reason the knob goes down immediately...
post #4119 of 16116
Umm... I may be asked to leave, but I left the TV on and the Subs started going nuts and to my surprise, it was GLEE the 3D movie. I reran it ondemand and I had to cut the subs back a little, some pretty heavy bass in this movie/concert. it's really surprising!
Edited by Reefdvr27 - 6/12/12 at 2:20pm
post #4120 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottfox View Post

Maybe the levels at most theaters are set low because they are all multiplexes & too much sound would bleed into the theater next door. That would be annoying if you were watching a movie, & heard the bass from a show next door stepping on your soundtrack. That's why I rarely go to the movies myself. Much better sound on my home system. Plus pause for beer/bathroom breaks. Picture on my Kuro damn near as good too!
I noticed this effect a few years ago when I went to see a movie in the theater with my son. I forgot what the movie was but it was around the same time War of the Worlds was out. While sitting there I could hear and mainly feel the bass impact from the movie playing in the next theater. When we left out of our movie I looked to see what was plying next to us and it was WotW. I'm not sure if anything could have been done when it comes to that movie but it was coming thru the walls.
post #4121 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Umm... I may be asked to leave, but I left the TV on and the Subs started going nuts and to my surprise, it was GLEE the 3D movie. I reran it ondemand and I had to cut the subs back a little, some pretty heavy bass in this movie/concert. it's really surprising!

Ummm...sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave the AVS Subforum. tongue.gif
Tim
post #4122 of 16116
FilmMixer,

I fully support your crusade, but must add that exhibitors should not push their equipment past their limits to reach reference. There are many theaters I have been to that have simply skimped, audio-wise, and there is no way reference would be possible without ear splitting distortion.

As for the Tron:Legacy supporters (and I am one of them, except for the clipping):

I first saw this film in theaters. I loved the visuals, and like most local theaters, I was completely disappointed with the sound, and wanted to see what kind of extension I would get at home. I got the disc from Netflix, and from the moment Sam gets onto the grid, I suspected something was wrong. When the Disc War segment' opening music cranked up, I KNEW something was wrong. There were both audio dropouts and distortion. I fixed the audio dropout problem with a firmware upgrade to my receiver, but the distortion was not masked anymore, and was at the forefront of many important segments of the movie.

So I got online and searched Google for Tron Legacy audio distortion, and found the thread that Scott posted up a few posts ago. Then I found this:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=c32b1d63794cc4a32c17b4e885d3bc93&t=162030

I also found this:

http://www.assignmentx.com/2011/exclusive-interview-tron-legacy-director-joe-kosinski-talks-about-the-new-blu-ray-release/


Coincidence? I think not. Let's face it folks, the director runs the show, and if he wants his soundtrack to be a crunchy, hard clipped mess, whether that was by brickwall limiters (as seems to be the case here, implemented at -2dBFS), or by other means of soft-clipping, he got it. I also think it may not have been an artistic choice, but one in which someome kept pushing faders until it 'sounded right', but I don't really know.

All of the folks who are saying they have no problems with the Tron Legacy soundtrack, I would like to know what your audio setup is. I run inexpensive but decently accurate custom line arrays for LCRSurround, and two 18 cuft folded horns for low end. My bass extension is -3dB at 15Hz, ~12dB at 10Hz. My speakers can [unfortunately] reveal a poor recording quickly. They are not like these:

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/classix-ii

Which can make even crappy recordings sound pretty 'listenable'. I can pick up clipping in Sam Witwicky's voice on the first two transformers movies with ease. The clipping on Immortals was instantly recognizable. Although I have never looked at the waveforms, I can bet that the opening sequence for Iron Man 2 [jumping out of the plane] has a touch of clip when the camera is closest to IM's repulsors [great fireworks sound effects after he lands, BTW].

I did not go looking around the soundtrack for clipped waveforms. I thought something was wrong, and found someone else did find the clipping, and it was too bad that such a visually striking movie had to have such a poor remixing job for the Blu Ray. At least the 2.0 mix is unclipped, but it's problem is the lack of independent surrounds which are used well in this film. I have not thrown in the DVD to see if the 5.1 track is unclipped, because then you soften the amazing visuals. I do not have a BluRay burner, or I would attempt to see if I could take the lossy 5.1 DVD track (if unclipped) and mux it with the 1080p video if the BluRay. It's just disappointing.

Due to the above interview, I cannot blame the sound guys. They work for the director, and if the director says 'louder score for this part' [the worst, or easiest to detect clipping in the film is when the orchestral pieces are pushed too far], the sound guys pretty much have to oblige. It is the director's film, after all. But as many have pointed out, and many glowing reviews have stated, many simply chalk up the clipped mess to 'artistic license' (after all, all the voices are modulated on the grid), or simply do not know it is there. It just kinda grates at me, but doesn't prevent me from watching the film (I bought the BluRay, KNOWING it was clipped, the visuals are that great). I will not buy Immortals, unless it is in the bargain bin.

JSS
post #4123 of 16116
Tron Legacy sounds absolutely fantastic overall in my system. I did sense some VERY slight distortion on 2nd watch in just a few quick spots after reading some comments here, but to my ears it was SO minor it was hardly worth mentioning. I have never been very sensitive to clipping though for whatever reason so take my comments with a grain of salt. Overall this track is an easy reference IMO and the LFE is off the charts fantastic cool.gif Although I dont have the greatest mains, they are pretty revealing. I think for me it is more a case of just not being very sensitive to this issue which I am thankful for in a sense tongue.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

Ummm...sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave the AVS Subforum. tongue.gif
Tim

Yeah, I think I am going to have to take whomever on their word as far as Glee 3d goes and the LFE. tongue.gif Even if that disc was 5 star, there is no way I could get through it I dont think. This is great news for glee fans who love LFE though.
Edited by Toe - 6/13/12 at 6:16am
post #4124 of 16116
There is clipping during Tron, watch the air battle scene and once the score starts to get loud. My speakers can play these very loud and clear so it just sounds bad for a few peaks. Maxmercy is correct. I still use this scene as one of my favorite demos because it digs deep, great surrounds, and the visuals are awesome! It would be perfect without that clipping but I suck it up.
post #4125 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

Ummm...sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave the AVS Subforum. tongue.gif
Tim
I redeemed myself by spinning on Private Ryan right after!
post #4126 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

There is clipping during Tron, watch the air battle scene and once the score starts to get loud. My speakers can play these very loud and clear so it just sounds bad for a few peaks. Maxmercy is correct. I still use this scene as one of my favorite demos because it digs deep, great surrounds, and the visuals are awesome! It would be perfect without that clipping but I suck it up.

Agreed. A few peaks is my experience as well. In light of the track as a whole, these are very minor IMO and still very demo worthy, but this will depend on the listener as well as all the other variables between setups/rooms.
post #4127 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

All of the folks who are saying they have no problems with the Tron Legacy soundtrack, I would like to know what your audio setup is.

I love it, one of my favorite demos is from entry into the grid through the flying staples - whatever the heck those things are called.

My system consists of two THT LPs (-3 dB point is around 16 or 17 Hz in the room) driven by a QSC RMX850 power amp, and 7 Chase Home Theater speakers driven by a Pioneer 1120K receiver. I listen at about -12 dB most of the time, and sub is hot about +3 dB from where MCACC sets it.

As someone already mentioned, maybe I'm just not as sensitive to clipping, or I accepted it as part of the intent. Some parts do sound a bit square wavey to me, but I didn't get too bothered by it.
post #4128 of 16116
Nice writeup, JSS. It is a shame that things like that get out the gate but you know, like you mentioned, it happens much more often then we would like to admit and I don't let it get to me. I'm so used to hearing clipped vocals and such that I just brush it off and knock down the SQ rating of that movie down a notch. Just as we all should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I redeemed myself by spinning on Private Ryan right after!

Good man. And... a great mix! biggrin.gif
post #4129 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Nice writeup, JSS. It is a shame that things like that get out the gate but you know, like you mentioned, it happens much more often then we would like to admit and I don't let it get to me. I'm so used to hearing clipped vocals and such that I just brush it off and knock down the SQ rating of that movie down a notch. Just as we all should.
Good man. And... a great mix! biggrin.gif

Scott, I finally finished my subs and will start another detailed thread on them.
post #4130 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Agreed. A few peaks is my experience as well. In light of the track as a whole, these are very minor IMO and still very demo worthy, but this will depend on the listener as well as all the other variables between setups/rooms.


What does the clipping sound like?
post #4131 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

What does the clipping sound like?

Like this: "bvdth bvdth bvdth" smile.gif

Think of the sound you hear at the mall when a guy in an Escalade with 28"s rolls by, windows rolled down, pumping the latest crap for all to hear

Edit: that's my scientific description for the general case, not specific to the passages in question on Tron:Legacy
post #4132 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Like this: "bvdth bvdth bvdth" smile.gif
Think of the sound you hear at the mall when a guy in an Escalade with 28"s rolls by, windows rolled down, pumping the latest crap for all to hear
Edit: that's my scientific description for the general case, not specific to the passages in question on Tron:Legacy

Priceless lol
post #4133 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Scott, I finally finished my subs and will start another detailed thread on them.

YYEEESSSSS!!!!1!!!

biggrin.gif
post #4134 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Like this: "bvdth bvdth bvdth" smile.gif
Think of the sound you hear at the mall when a guy in an Escalade with 28"s rolls by, windows rolled down, pumping the latest crap for all to hear
Edit: that's my scientific description for the general case, not specific to the passages in question on Tron:Legacy

Ha! That made me lol! Thanks.
post #4135 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

While that can certainly be an issue, I suspect it isn't the general reason the knob goes down immediately...

Well, please,...do tell confused.gif complaints...?
post #4136 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

The bass levels were pretty high at my local theater this weekend on this one.  I do remember remarking how strong the bass was so, it was at least a 3.5 for me, maybe 4.  Its hard for me to judge at the theater since there are so many variables, and the limitations of the theater's bass extension.    Nothing unique with respect to special bass effects just your normal sci-fi boom, bang, pow.......

Enjoyed the movie, but I felt it was a bit of a prologue, setting the scene for a possible franchise.  If they could have dove into the action a little earlier it would have been more standout, but I guess they did have to setup the story somewhat since it was so out there.....  Once the action gets going the bass was prevalent and strong, wasnt disappointed.

I saw Prometheus at my local Regal theater in one of their RPX screens. Bass was pretty damn good. When the alien ship takes off my shirt was moving from the air pressure.
post #4137 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Think of the sound you hear at the mall when a guy in an Escalade with 28"s rolls by, windows rolled down, pumping the latest crap for all to hear


Hey, come on! Those guys with their high powered car audio, multi sub SUV's, were some of my best customers! cool.gif



Ian biggrin.gif
post #4138 of 16116
Ok, I just received Chronicle from Netflix. Is there any particular scene to use as reference material?

Thanks in advance.
post #4139 of 16116
^^ For 'Chronicle,' at the beginning when the boys find the mysterious blue orb underground and the final battle sequence where they practically destroy Seattle. Really good bass material in those scenes, around the 3.5 stars range going by the OP master list.
post #4140 of 16116
Quote:
Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

^^ For 'Chronicle,' at the beginning when the boys find the mysterious blue orb underground and the final battle sequence where they practically destroy Seattle. Really good bass material in those scenes, around the 3.5 stars range going by the OP master list.

Thanks for the info. I'm getting a new sub tomorrow and I'm looking forward to give it a proper test......wink.gif
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