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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 168

post #5011 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

I'm really not speculating, I'm saying it as it is.. And filtered or not, it just doesn't have the feel of ULF. Someone who's capable of making a speclab shot will prove so sooner or later. When Wrath of the Titans came out, I believe I was the first to give it 4,5 - 5 stars, and some people didn't agree. A few pages back Bossobass provided the speclab measurements which proves the ULF content.

Amen, and thanks for the heads up.

Sorry I missed your rating and comments on WOTT. I shied away from it because of some of the neg comments here and missed yours completely.

The wife and I just watched it and she gave it 2 thumbs up. She turned to me at the end and asked, "Why don't wives like bass? That movie was FUN!"

There's no denying WOTT is a 5 star monster.

WOTTClippedcaveweaponsmaker.png
Unknown.png

And this scene is indicative of the huge <20 Hz content throughout:

WOTTAiresHadesfight.png

It's the top ULF flick of the year so far. Dark Knight Rises may be the only flick yet this year to rival it, IMO, but enjoy em while ya got em until then.
post #5012 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Amen, and thanks for the heads up.
Sorry I missed your rating and comments on WOTT. I shied away from it because of some of the neg comments here and missed yours completely.
The wife and I just watched it and she gave it 2 thumbs up. She turned to me at the end and asked, "Why don't wives like bass? That movie was FUN!"
There's no denying WOTT is a 5 star monster.
WOTTClippedcaveweaponsmaker.png
Unknown.png
And this scene is indicative of the huge <20 Hz content throughout:
WOTTAiresHadesfight.png
It's the top ULF flick of the year so far. Dark Knight Rises may be the only flick yet this year to rival it, IMO, but enjoy em while ya got em until then.

Wow, didn't know the bass was like that. Will have to give it a listen now even if the movie is not that good. smile.gif

Thanks for the chart
post #5013 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

On a side note, the reason some may have not rated Wrath of the Titans as high was due to the fact that even though the ULF was there (nearly FLAT to 10Hz on the peak and avg curve!), it was recorded at a lower spl than the films most rave about, like Tron:Legacy, Underworld:Awakening or Immortals, which do not reach as low on the average, but are recorded at higher levels, with most of the highest spl moments centered at 30Hz.
JSS

There's probably something to that. IIRC I gave it 4.5, but I have no problem letting it have the whole five stars. I certainly thought it was better than Clash, which I gave four stars.

Been a while since I saw Clash, though, and that last time it was with the LFE turned down so I could concentrate on listening to the Rifftrax.

Hunger Games is tonight's movie, so I'm looking forward to that.
post #5014 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

eek.gifconfused.gif
Mark, et al, .... I'm entirely perplexed.
I recognize your skill-set, done,..you're accomplished, and I like specific titles within your body of work. Additionally, I recognize you're work environs, and there's truly a relatively limited number of individuals that perform what you do at the level at which you perform it,.... I get it. But, blowing drivers should be a rare occurrence. Period. HF, LF, .... MF, whatever F.
Now, granted I'm not very well versed on what your system tech does, whether they're in house, farmed out, whatever, ..point is I don't know. I do know you've stated Dolby representatives come in on occasion to check calibration,...that's cool. Standards are awesome, I wish the music side of the industry adopted some. Whatever.
What I know is this,....if you're encounter failures, and they're not rare, this is incredulous to me. I can't believe it, really. This means you're way into the drive units thermal compression profile,....this lends itself to inaccuracies. Drive unit failures should be rare. Thermal compression alters the spectral balance of playback in a variable and unpredictable manner.
So, is it me? Anyone else find this odd? Seriously, that's wild in my opinion. If you're experiencing failures that often, in a fixed environment, then you need a more robust system. Again, I've got no experience or credentials within this mixing environment. Maybe I'm way off here about the failures. But you are hard into compression though ...... wow.
Interesting to say the least. I've said it before, looks to me like you need more system.

FOH,

Completely agree. This may be a budget thing, but I would think that a mixing stage would have at LEAST a 6dB if not a 10dB system.

By 10dB system I mean that to reach reference levels, they would still have 10dB of headroom before reaching amp limits or driver distortion limits (not even CLOSE to driver thermal or mechanical limits). I personally run a '-7dB' system. I cannot reach reference without unacceptable distortion, and distortion is not under 5% throughout until -7dBRef. I listen at -10dBRef, to get a clean audio presentation, and that's why I can pick up clipping in audio tracks, because my speakers are not contributing the distortion, the soundtrack is.

I think most cinema systems are 0dB systems. They are running at the ragged edge to produce reference, and cannot do so without distortion. My local IMAX is proof positive; simply painful distortion heard during The Dark Knight Rises on some gunshots and punches. I pray that distortion is in the playback system and not encoded on the soundtrack.

The only thing I can think of for the mixing stage blowing drivers often is that they try to use the equipemnt that would be found in a 'typical cinema', with it's inherent pluses and minuses. I know for a fact that I have heard blown drivers in cinemas, and no, not rarely, but about one time in 20. That's still 95% success, but that one bad presentation will keep you from going to the cinema, and instead spending the cash on a playback system where you know what you will be getting. At home.

JSS
Edited by maxmercy - 8/31/12 at 5:46pm
post #5015 of 16084
Hunger Games - 3.5 stars. This is a Hanna type movie... excellent LFE and brutal when it's called to be, but not a lot of scenes requiring it. The audio in general was fantastic.
post #5016 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Tim,
Man do I hope you are wrong, but even though Thor was filtered at 20Hz, it was a pretty good soundtrack, just kind of a 'wasted potential' type thing....hope the same is not true of Avengers.
Do you have SpecLab capability?

Speclab won't run on any of my computers, I hope it gets updated one day so it will run on more recent machines. It could be a regional thing, and I do hope that's the case.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fun soundtrack in general.. But as a big fan of ULF I can't deny being left somewhat disappointed. Wasted potential is exactly the term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

On a side note, the reason some may have not rated Wrath of the Titans as high was due to the fact that even though the ULF was there (nearly FLAT to 10Hz on the peak and avg curve!), it was recorded at a lower spl than the films most rave about, like Tron:Legacy, Underworld:Awakening or Immortals, which do not reach as low on the average, but are recorded at higher levels, with most of the highest spl moments centered at 30Hz.

A lot of the films that most people rave about seem to have most of their LFE energy at the 30hz point, which isn't a bad strategy one could argue, that way even the people with a less capable system can enjoy it up to a certain level. It does start to get annoying for us when they start filtering content below that though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Amen, and thanks for the heads up.
Sorry I missed your rating and comments on WOTT. I shied away from it because of some of the neg comments here and missed yours completely.
The wife and I just watched it and she gave it 2 thumbs up. She turned to me at the end and asked, "Why don't wives like bass? That movie was FUN!"
There's no denying WOTT is a 5 star monster.

I'm only flat to 10hz, but I'm a big fan of having as much bandwith as possible. I've read the arguments here on AVS, and I do not get the critics at all. The difference between using a 20hz and a 10hz HPF if the content is there is huge, and I'll bet the difference between 5 and 10hz will be equally huge.. Anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't experienced the difference.

I was surprised that the mixing studios don't have full range capability. I'm an orchestral musician, and I can't imagine going to a local band and finding out my own instrument is limited compared to what the amateurs play. Just saying.

Tim
post #5017 of 16084
I must have watched a copy that was way different from the one you watched. Mine had incredible bass. Probably the among the best two or three I've seen all year. Unfortunately I also couldn't get speclab to run properly. It opens, but I can seem to feed it any sound.
post #5018 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I must have watched a copy that was way different from the one you watched. Mine had incredible bass. Probably the among the best two or three I've seen all year. Unfortunately I also couldn't get speclab to run properly. It opens, but I can seem to feed it any sound.

Regional differences are a possibility, I do hope that's the case!
post #5019 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

Hunger Games - 3.5 stars. This is a Hanna type movie... excellent LFE and brutal when it's called to be, but not a lot of scenes requiring it. The audio in general was fantastic.

Agree on the 3,5 rating for HG, but, Hanna has much better LFE than HG imo.
post #5020 of 16084
Are you guys giving votes based on ULF level alone?
Im not.
I think that while ULF is very important its not the ONLY criteria. The subjective feel (anyone remember the horrible LFE texture of inception?) of the soundtrack is more important to me than what speclabs says. Underworld Awakening is a good exemple, not the most ULF around, but, if you consider >20hz as well as the subjective impression of the audio then nothing below 5stars is realistic.

Ratings should be given on how the track sounds, not how it measures in a few graphs in speclabs.
Edited by Steveo1234 - 9/1/12 at 3:15am
post #5021 of 16084
I haven't rated Avengers yet, and I would give it 4 stars, as it is a really good mix, great sound in general, lot's of LFE from start to finish.. If it would have gone an octave lower it would have a definite 5 for me.
post #5022 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

eek.gifconfused.gif
Mark, et al, .... I'm entirely perplexed.
I recognize your skill-set, done,..you're accomplished, and I like specific titles within your body of work. Additionally, I recognize you're work environs, and there's truly a relatively limited number of individuals that perform what you do at the level at which you perform it,.... I get it. But, blowing drivers should be a rare occurrence. Period. HF, LF, .... MF, whatever F.
Now, granted I'm not very well versed on what your system tech does, whether they're in house, farmed out, whatever, ..point is I don't know. I do know you've stated Dolby representatives come in on occasion to check calibration,...that's cool. Standards are awesome, I wish the music side of the industry adopted some. Whatever.
What I know is this,....if you're encounter failures, and they're not rare, this is incredulous to me. I can't believe it, really. This means you're way into the drive units thermal compression profile,....this lends itself to inaccuracies. Drive unit failures should be rare. Thermal compression alters the spectral balance of playback in a variable and unpredictable manner.
So, is it me? Anyone else find this odd? Seriously, that's wild in my opinion. If you're experiencing failures that often, in a fixed environment, then you need a more robust system. Again, I've got no experience or credentials within this mixing environment. Maybe I'm way off here about the failures. But you are hard into compression though ...... wow.
Interesting to say the least. I've said it before, looks to me like you need more system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

FOH,
Completely agree. This may be a budget thing, but I would think that a mixing stage would have at LEAST a 6dB if not a 10dB system.
By 10dB system I mean that to reach reference levels, they would still have 10dB of headroom before reaching amp limits or driver distortion limits (not even CLOSE to driver thermal or mechanical limits). I personally run a '-7dB' system. I cannot reach reference without unacceptable distortion, and distortion is not under 5% throughout until -7dBRef. I listen at -10dBRef, to get a clean audio presentation, and that's why I can pick up clipping in audio tracks, because my speakers are not contributing the distortion, the soundtrack is.
I think most cinema systems are 0dB systems. They are running at the ragged edge to produce reference, and cannot do so without distortion. My local IMAX is proof positive; simply painful distortion heard during The Dark Knight Rises on some gunshots and punches. I pray that distortion is in the playback system and not encoded on the soundtrack.
The only thing I can think of for the mixing stage blowing drivers often is that they try to use the equipemnt that would be found in a 'typical cinema', with it's inherent pluses and minuses. I know for a fact that I have heard blown drivers in cinemas, and no, not rarely, but about one time in 20. That's still 95% success, but that one bad presentation will keep you from going to the cinema, and instead spending the cash on a playback system where you know what you will be getting. At home.
JSS

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

I was surprised that the mixing studios don't have full range capability. I'm an orchestral musician, and I can't imagine going to a local band and finding out my own instrument is limited compared to what the amateurs play. Just saying.
Tim

Tim's got the correct analogy. My cousin's a retired concert violinist and years ago he told me "The instrument is half the battle. Get the best one you can afford". It would be like him shopping for a violin at Walmart and complaining about all of that practicing causing the violin to go out of tune often.

Filmmixer gets bent out of shape if you tell him his studio needs a serious subwoofer upgrade 'cause us mundanes can't possibly know anything they don't. rolleyes.gif

There's no such thing as a venue that can't be outfitted properly for low end.
post #5023 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Are you guys giving votes based on ULF level alone?
Im not.
I think that while ULF is very important its not the ONLY criteria. The subjective feel (anyone remember the horrible LFE texture of inception?) of the soundtrack is more important to me than what speclabs says. Underworld Awakening is a good exemple, not the most ULF around, but, if you consider >20hz as well as the subjective impression of the audio then nothing below 5stars is realistic.
Ratings should be given on how the track sounds, not how it measures in a few graphs in speclabs.

Absolutely. I actually watch movies, believe it or not. Then, if I feel or hear something that piques my interest, I'll speclab it later. I only fire up SpecLab once every few months. Since I do not know the freq response of all of the folks who post here that say "Film X had AWESOME bass!", the graphs come up. It is an objective comparison.

After enough iteration, you don't even need SpecLab. I could tell while watching that Underworld Awakening was a 30Hz monster. to be sure, I ran a peak/avg graph:



30Hz (actually 28Hz) overpowers everything else. The peak graph lets you know that some under 30Hz stuff was thrown in from time to time, but the average graph does not lie. This is basically a single bass-note film. If you have a dip near 30Hz in your room, people would have thought this film was not very good in the bass department. I remember thnking it sounded like Tron:Legacy. Lo and behold:



And my hunch was right. I also remember thinking Wrath of the Titans was like XMen:1st Class:

WotT:


X:1st Class:


But I was blinded by the fact that my freq response drops below 15Hz, so X:1C did sound better in my room. It was also mixed louder, as these graphs are all level-matched.

Still, IMO nothing beats The Incredible Hulk:

Or Battle:LA:


WotT does come very close, and I agree with it's 5-star rating.

Immortals is another good one, but the clipping is annoying:



JSS
post #5024 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Are you guys giving votes based on ULF level alone?
Im not.
I think that while ULF is very important its not the ONLY criteria. The subjective feel (anyone remember the horrible LFE texture of inception?) of the soundtrack is more important to me than what speclabs says. Underworld Awakening is a good exemple, not the most ULF around, but, if you consider >20hz as well as the subjective impression of the audio then nothing below 5stars is realistic.
Ratings should be given on how the track sounds, not how it measures in a few graphs in speclabs.


100% agreed. Extension is something I take note of, but my ratings are based on many things. I feel THOR for example is easy 5 star material overall, but the graphs show it to be filtered. I do find the graphs interesting and appreciate those who put them up, but honestly they have VERY little impact on how I rate.
post #5025 of 16084
I miss sometimes those shocking moments using bass (darla taps the tank in nemo,those door knockings in the Haunting) those are not Ulf but they Sure are some rememberly moments in sound mixing,maybe the best : )
post #5026 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Filmmixer gets bent out of shape if you tell him his studio needs a serious subwoofer upgrade

I understand that.

I think that's likely a product of being a proud and loyal representative of one's employer, and that's a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

'cause us mundanes can't possibly know anything they don't.

This, I take issue with. I don't know if this is consistent with his opinion or not. What I do know is one should never underestimate the level of technical savvy here within the AVS community, as it's without question, world class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

There's no such thing as a venue that can't be outfitted properly for low end.

As my two teens would say; .... IKR !

Yep, considering the big wavelengths involved, .. throw more displacement at it. One doesn't as easily have that option in the upper octaves.


After I posted concerning the blown driver scenarios, my only possible line of thinking that could come close to rationalizing this would be system similarity/capability to that of commercial venues. And even that is so fraught with holes, based on a flawed premise, and just plain silly. So I don't know, the almighty buck I reckon.... confused.gif

What's the point of the industry standardized FR, when specific loudspeaker elements are exhibiting significant amounts of compression induced loss?

Destroyed is the precisely designed and tuned tonal balance of your multi-way/multi-driver system. Whatever drive unit possesses the greatest amount of compression becomes the softest relative to all other drivers within the system. And as I noted before, it's a varying, dynamic scenario. The increase in VC temps causes the VC impedance to change, and this affects any the corner freqs of any passive Xover network within the system. Many well put together active, multi-way systems, still may have some passive components. It just depends. This may or may not be the case here, but either way compression is certainly detrimental.
post #5027 of 16084
I thought Tron was better than Underworld for sure. I think many people here don't realize the difference low frequencies do when played flat. Underworld was great, but to me there are better 20hz and over movies and Tron had better lower frequencies than it. Although the Hunger Games and Hanna( watched this last night) had much less quantity of bass the quality was just awesome! My wife told me to turn Hanna's bass down because it was too strong which she never said before. I watched it at 8 dBs below reference with the bass 13 dBs below reference! I am flat to 4hz and never felt this low stuff before unless I ran it 10-12 dBs hot! Displacement, power, and very important(LP boost under 20hz) makes a world of difference!
post #5028 of 16084

Is there a way to do a search for the waterfall for a specific movie ?

if not, it is very inconvenient.

post #5029 of 16084
Does the WOTW DVD have the same ULF as the blu-ray?

I've watched the movie before so I don't want to buy it but I can rent the DVD. I would like to see if my sub puts out anything during the pod scene.

Thanks
post #5030 of 16084
Most of the scenes mentioned have lots of 20hz and above so there will always be people getting the effects, we are saying when done properly(not sticking subs in a room) the experience is better.
post #5031 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Most of the scenes mentioned have lots of 20hz and above so there will always be people getting the effects, we are saying when done properly(not sticking subs in a room) the experience is better.

I couldn't agree more. Let's face it, Tranformers is just a silly kid's toy fantasy. But, with the amazing leaps forward in CGI capability, the visual representation becomes far more lifelike. Likewise, the sound adds even more, to the point where it becomes enjoyable to adults as well.

I don't rate the sub channel production by ULF alone and I don't think most ULF capable sub owners do either. It's just that, exactly as MKT said, it adds a far more credible realism. Let's face it, if a multi-ton mechanical creature was stomping around you on the street, you would feel the shake all the way to DC.

Here's a scene that's never mentioned amongst the big-boom favorites from the 1st Tranformers movie, which happens to be one of my all-time favorite SW soundtracks. It's when the Autobots formally meet LaBeouf and Fox and introduce themselves and tell why they're on Earth, etc. This is a clip of them doing just that, stomping around in the street:

Transformersbotsmeetsamfox.png

The ULF isn't wall-crumblinbly loud, but just enough to remind you that these things a huge and heavy.

My favorite low freq effect is when Bee is being driven toward Brawl/Devastator and delivers the kill shot:

Movie_Brawl_dies.jpg

It's not a big ULF effect, just sounds awesome and like no other explosion I've heard.

Like MKT, I judge a soundtrack by originality and context to the visual and it usually goes without saying, except for a very very few exceptions, that the wider the bandwidth (the more ULF) the more the sound adds to the film viewing experience. Conversely, the absence of any ULF can make the scene seem cartoonish and yank you right out of the story. (Can you say Avatar: Destruction of Home Tree?)
post #5032 of 16084
I can't believe that you just showed that Transformer scene! When the movie came out I used to use those scenes all the time! mikeduke(he owns a submersive in a 1000 cubic foot room) and I traded PMs back then discussing how that bumble bee scene was even lower and cooler than the ironclad flip. We were discussing if we both were feeling it! I forgot all about it, time to throw it back in!
post #5033 of 16084

"Like MKT, I judge a soundtrack by originality and context to the visual and it usually goes without saying, except for a very very few exceptions, that the wider the bandwidth (the more ULF) the more the sound adds to the film viewing experience. Conversely, the absence of any ULF can make the scene seem cartoonish and yank you right out of the story."

 

Bossobass, this is exactly what i think too.

 

i remember during the fight in the village near the end of Saving Private Ryan when a tank comes towards the camera and the front of the tank goes up a pile of debris and then slams down on the ground;  i was expecting ULF effects from such a heavy machine doing this right in front of the camera, but there were no "ULF", just the ordinary track and engine noises.  

that took a lot of the realism out of the movie.  it was quite a deception for me.

post #5034 of 16084
Just watched The Raid: Redemption last night. A very violent action film. There is a part in the movie when the police are in the building and preparing to enter a door. The scene is in slow motion when he fires a shot from his rifle and the bass is so strong and deep it made my posters rattle. Just wondering if anyone has watched this movie yet. It had some good deep gun shots also.
post #5035 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

Just watched The Raid: Redemption last night. A very violent action film. There is a part in the movie when the police are in the building and preparing to enter a door. The scene is in slow motion when he fires a shot from his rifle and the bass is so strong and deep it made my posters rattle. Just wondering if anyone has watched this movie yet. It had some good deep gun shots also.

Watched the movie about a week ago. Good action flick. Bass was good too which made me happy biggrin.gif.


I just watched Death Race and there was a good amount of bass in it. Nothing low but a good amount above maybe 30hz.
post #5036 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

Just watched The Raid: Redemption last night. A very violent action film. There is a part in the movie when the police are in the building and preparing to enter a door. The scene is in slow motion when he fires a shot from his rifle and the bass is so strong and deep it made my posters rattle. Just wondering if anyone has watched this movie yet. It had some good deep gun shots also.

Watched it a few weeks ago and if I recall correctly it had a ton of chest hitting mid-bass. I guess that goes along perfectly with all the chest hitting bullets and karate chops it had. People got MESSED UP on this one!!! cool.gif
post #5037 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

Just watched The Raid: Redemption last night. A very violent action film. There is a part in the movie when the police are in the building and preparing to enter a door. The scene is in slow motion when he fires a shot from his rifle and the bass is so strong and deep it made my posters rattle. Just wondering if anyone has watched this movie yet. It had some good deep gun shots also.

Saw this in the theaters a while back and really liked it...glad to know the blu-ray is fitted with a proper bass track. Gotta get my hands on it.
post #5038 of 16084
Yeah, I rented it on blu-ray from Netflix and watched it on Saturday night. I might pick this one up.
post #5039 of 16084
Just watch Snow White and the Huntsman. Giving his one 3.5/5. Ok amount of bass. Nothin low...except for maybe at the scene at the 01:27:10 mark where crows are flying around her wink.gif
post #5040 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


My favorite low freq effect is when Bee is being driven toward Brawl/Devastator and delivers the kill shot:
Movie_Brawl_dies.jpg
It's not a big ULF effect, just sounds awesome and like no other explosion I've heard.
Like MKT, I judge a soundtrack by originality and context to the visual and it usually goes without saying, except for a very very few exceptions, that the wider the bandwidth (the more ULF) the more the sound adds to the film viewing experience. Conversely, the absence of any ULF can make the scene seem cartoonish and yank you right out of the story. (Can you say Avatar: Destruction of Home Tree?)

Yup. One of my favorite deep rumbles from T1. smile.gif Lot's of 20hz in that shot.
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