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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 169

post #5041 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Wrath Of The Titans!
This is a Five-0 bass flick. Massive amounts of bass throughout the movie.
For those with full bandwidth subs, beware your levels! This one comes out of the gate full-bore, but the effects levels increase with the intensity of the scenes.
I've been running my new system 5-6dB hot at reference level to test its minerals. Ha! Not too far into the movie I saw clip lights, so I punked it back to flat at reference level. The scene that clipped the amp is noted below and here are only 8 of the countless scenes in this movie that are LOADED with low end:
WOTT2headed.png
WOTTMore2headed.png
WOTTChains.png
This is the scene that clipped the system. Its also loaded with low end, but I isolated the effect that caused the clip at reference +5dB.
WOTTClippedcaveweaponsmaker.png
WOTTCyclops.png
WOTTFindingtheway.png
WOTTTrident.png
WOTTAiresHadesfight.png
I also liked the movie. The cast is as good as it gets, the action is non-stop and over-the-top, which is apropos to the subject. In any case, you want bass, this movie has it in full bandwidth glory. No frequency left on the table, so some huge bass for every sub owner.

+1! Watched this last night....massive LFE in this one! Very entertaining from an audio/visual standpoint accompanied by a decent story line.

 

There were many many scenes that stood out. Two that I really liked were when they are first going into the maze (they were crossing over a 'bridge') and when they leave the maze right before they see Zuess. These were two scenes that weren't accompanied by huge monsters, but added ULF for the suspense effect IMO.

 

Anyone have or care to speclab those scenes?

 

Also, bosso, what scenes are the ones you speclab'd above?

post #5042 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. One of my favorite deep rumbles from T1. smile.gif Lot's of 20hz in that shot.

Got a time stamp for that scene?
post #5043 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Got a time stamp for that scene?

No but its towards the end of Transformers 1. Bumblebee is being dragged by a tow truck shooting the baddies when he plugs whoever baddie bot that was (lol I cant keep track) and it is a slo-mo shot of it getting hit. Can't miss it.
post #5044 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Tim's got the correct analogy. My cousin's a retired concert violinist and years ago he told me "The instrument is half the battle. Get the best one you can afford". It would be like him shopping for a violin at Walmart and complaining about all of that practicing causing the violin to go out of tune often.
Filmmixer gets bent out of shape if you tell him his studio needs a serious subwoofer upgrade 'cause us mundanes can't possibly know anything they don't. rolleyes.gif
There's no such thing as a venue that can't be outfitted properly for low end.

the issue though is heat from high power, and if you play a movie, that's different from repeatedly playing the most taxing part of the movie 20 times in a row with no chance for the drivers to cool. Eventually they overheat and die, while you might be able to play the movie straight through forever without coming close to harming them. I'm confident they don't have a problem with limited excursion, but I supose even 10 dB of headroom might not be enough on the thermal side when you start really abusing the system in a mixing environment, which is what I think FM was getting at. Although on a theoretical basis I agree it's surprising that those guys blow subs at all . . . .
post #5045 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

the issue though is heat from high power, and if you play a movie, that's different from repeatedly playing the most taxing part of the movie 20 times in a row with no chance for the drivers to cool. Eventually they overheat and die, while you might be able to play the movie straight through forever without coming close to harming them. I'm confident they don't have a problem with limited excursion, but I supose even 10 dB of headroom might not be enough on the thermal side when you start really abusing the system in a mixing environment, which is what I think FM was getting at. Although on a theoretical basis I agree it's surprising that those guys blow subs at all . . . .

Forcing myself to take another half step back there may be a simple business/practicality issue here. To get 12 dB of headroom would require (assuming you're pushing your drivers as hard as you're willing to) 4 times more subs. So if they used to have 18 18 inchers, they'd need 72 of them to get an extra 12 dB (plus 72 times more power). Maybe there's simply a practical limit where it's better to replace the odd sub than try to find space (leaving budget out of it) for all those subs.
post #5046 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post

I miss sometimes those shocking moments using bass (darla taps the tank in nemo,those door knockings in the Haunting) those are not Ulf but they Sure are some rememberly moments in sound mixing,maybe the best : )

To your point, what are some good demonstration scenes with that mid bass thump.
A scene that comes to mind is from Warhorse, no mans land. As discussed here, it wasn't ultra low...but for someone with only dual VTF15's it's probably more impressive than the pod scene.
post #5047 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Forcing myself to take another half step back there may be a simple business/practicality issue here.

Sure it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

To get 12 dB of headroom would require (assuming you're pushing your drivers as hard as you're willing to) 4 times more subs. So if they used to have 18 18 inchers, they'd need 72 of them to get an extra 12 dB (plus 72 times more power).

If they retained their current bass drivers/cabs, yeah they'd need a lot more of them.

Examining the situation in even broader terms, the potential exists to get both a more robust LF system, and one that could resolve deeper into the spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Maybe there's simply a practical limit where it's better to replace the odd sub than try to find space (leaving budget out of it) for all those subs.

Here's the rub in my opinion; if you're leaning that hard into a system whereby you're encountering failures that aren't uncommon, then you're mixing thru a rig that may as well be named Sybil. eek.gif


I hope I'm wrong ....

Maybe there's some element here I'm not seeing.
post #5048 of 16084
IIRC,

FilmMixer's home stage once had sixteen Bag End ELF 18" units across the bottom of the front of the stage, with dual 18" BagEnd ELF units for each LCR channel, for a total of 22 18" subs, all sealed, with the BagEnd LT-like processing which gave them extension via LF boost to counteract the -12dB/octave rolloff of a sealed sub.

That is no longer the case. If I am following FM's posts correctly, his stage now has dual 18" vented cabs for LFE, but still retains the dual 18" sealed units for monitoring ULF in the LCR channels.

He once said his stage could extend into the teens Hz-wise with the BagEnd units, but with the new vented subs, that extension is no longer, and -3dB (or -6dB) at 25Hz is how far the rig extends, due to vented box limitations.

My GUESS is that they are now using four dual 18" vented cabs for LFE, to get the same output above 25Hz that the sixteen sealed 18" drivers gave them. Doubling that cab and amp count gives you 6dB of headroom, instantly, but at a signifiant financial cost, and the conservation of the limited bandwidth.

We also do not know the modal behavior of the soundstage, and if any EQ is applied for a particular seating position that could rob headroom away very quickly.

Unfortunately, ALL of this is speculation based on forum posts.

I would love to see a stage outfitted with eight properly designed 15Hz front loaded basshorns, and see if the mixers think anything was missing in comparison to before. Front-loaded 15Hz horns will get you to the tweens depending on the size of the room. Tapped horns won't extend as low (must highpass, just like vented), but will give you more output at the low corner compared to front loaded horns, and will be smaller cabs.

I would like to know if there are ANY sound designers/mixers that have experienced a flat to 10Hz or below room, and if it would change whether or not highpass filtering would be applied to their effects/mixes....


JSS
post #5049 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

I would like to know if there are ANY sound designers/mixers that have experienced a flat to 10Hz or below room, and if it would change whether or not highpass filtering would be applied to their effects/mixes....
JSS

I've mentioned before that even though these mix environments don't have the deep LF/ULF capability, I'd think private screening room facilities do. I visited last year with some high end loudspeaker mfrs that outfit such rooms while attending Cedia. I'm leaving shortly for day one, I'll make it a point to find him again and discuss this further.
post #5050 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I've mentioned before that even though these mix environments don't have the deep LF/ULF capability, I'd think private screening room facilities do.

I bet you Steven Spielberg and George Lucas private screening rooms do. wink.gif
post #5051 of 16084
Give Men in Black 3 3.5/5. Average bass for an action flick. Nothing great IMO.
post #5052 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeyayo50 View Post

Give Men in Black 3 3.5/5. Average bass for an action flick. Nothing great IMO.

Agreed. Could perhaps be persuaded to give a 4/5 if the last 30 minutes have better bass than the first hour or so.
post #5053 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Agreed. Could perhaps be persuaded to give a 4/5 if the last 30 minutes have better bass than the first hour or so.

Yes, I was expecting to feel a rumble instead of hearing it during the rocket scene. It could have been great.
post #5054 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Agreed. Could perhaps be persuaded to give a 4/5 if the last 30 minutes have better bass than the first hour or so.

Upgrading to a 4 out of 5. Nothing special but pretty ok.
post #5055 of 16084
Avengers 3D and Wrath of the Titans 3D restored my faith in my current setup... excellent, chest pounding bass from both movies.
post #5056 of 16084
I was also impressed with; Wrath of the Titans (2D version)!
post #5057 of 16084
I also was impressed with WOTT! Tons of LFE, great extension, etc.......honestly though, for me it was overall not quite up there with what I consider the best. Battle LA, Cloverfield, Tron Legacy, TIH, etc.....left me a little more WOWED by the end for whatever reason. Dont get me wrong though, still a killer LFE flick no question!

Watched The Grey yesterday and was caught off guard by the awesome audio as I was not expecting much. Very dynamic, Great use of the LFE channel and another awesome plane crash scene for audio! cool.gif Not on par with FotP, but still demo worthy in my book. Awesome use of surround as well.
post #5058 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I also was impressed with WOTT! Tons of LFE, great extension, etc.......honestly though, for me it was overall not quite up there with what I consider the best. Battle LA, Cloverfield, Tron Legacy, TIH, etc.....left me a little more WOWED by the end for whatever reason. Dont get me wrong though, still a killer LFE flick no question!
Watched The Grey yesterday and was caught off guard by the awesome audio as I was not expecting much. Very dynamic, Great use of the LFE channel and another awesome plane crash scene for audio! cool.gif Not on par with FotP, but still demo worthy in my book. Awesome use of surround as well.
I'm curious if the usuals on this thread that rate the Pod scence as one of the best to demo have systems that reach the non audible ULF. I'm running dual VTF-15's, and as much as the scene is bass heavy, to me it isn't something that really wow's me. I find scenes with chest ponding mid bass more impressive...like opening of master and commander. Is it the 20 and below that does it for this scene?
post #5059 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I'm curious if the usuals on this thread that rate the Pod scence as one of the best to demo have systems that reach the non audible ULF. I'm running dual VTF-15's, and as much as the scene is bass heavy, to me it isn't something that really wow's me. I find scenes with chest ponding mid bass more impressive...like opening of master and commander. Is it the 20 and below that does it for this scene?

Have you measured your response? WOTW is both loud and deep and why it impresses.
post #5060 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Is it the 20 and below that does it for this scene?
BINGO!
post #5061 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I'm curious if the usuals on this thread that rate the Pod scence as one of the best to demo have systems that reach the non audible ULF. I'm running dual VTF-15's, and as much as the scene is bass heavy, to me it isn't something that really wow's me. I find scenes with chest ponding mid bass more impressive...like opening of master and commander. Is it the 20 and below that does it for this scene?
I'm running dual FV15HPs in a big area (tv area about 3000cuft and opens to the rest of the house totaling about 8000cuft. It can handle the job well at >20Hz frequency. For <20Hz ULF, you're not going to feel anything in this large area. You need a closed room. I guess maybe 4 FV15HPs will help a bit in my house.
post #5062 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I'm curious if the usuals on this thread that rate the Pod scence as one of the best to demo have systems that reach the non audible ULF. I'm running dual VTF-15's, and as much as the scene is bass heavy, to me it isn't something that really wow's me. I find scenes with chest ponding mid bass more impressive...like opening of master and commander. Is it the 20 and below that does it for this scene?

Even though my extension is only good to around 14hz or so with my PB13s, that Emergence scene is still very impressive. Even when I had my subs in 20hz tune that scene had just as much wow factor subjectively though. Having said that, it is not the first scene I turn to for demo these days, but part of the reason for that is I have demoed it so many times I am feeling a bit over it at this point. Maybe extension into single digits would give it new life which MK or others can speak to. I certainly dont think it is just 20hz and under that makes this scene what it is since like I mentioned it still hit hard even when I was only good to around 20hz or so. I do run my subs hot below about 45hz though so I am sure that helps as well.

Another thing that helps in my setup is the dual BKs I am using which are rated down to 5hz. Where my subs leave off, the BKs take over and keep going which makes a big difference.
Edited by Toe - 9/13/12 at 8:53am
post #5063 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Even though my extension is only good to around 14hz or so with my PB13s, that Emergence scene is still very impressive. Even when I had my subs in 20hz tune that scene had just as much wow factor subjectively though. Having said that, it is not the first scene I turn to for demo these days, but part of the reason for that is I have demoed it so many times I am feeling a bit over it at this point. Maybe extension into single digits would give it new life which MK or others can speak to. I certainly dont think it is just 20hz and under that makes this scene what it is since like I mentioned it still hit hard even when I was only good to around 20hz or so. I do run my subs hot below about 45hz though so I am sure that helps as well.
Another thing that helps in my setup is the dual BKs I am using which are rated down to 5hz. Where my subs leave off, the BKs take over and keep going which makes a big difference.

What is your frequency set for on your buttkickers? You can figure things out fast if you LP them at 20hz and run them from 5-20hz. Then when they are going you know it is the deep stuff only. You can clearly then say which scenes have the low stuff and if it adds to the fun! Put it this way, WOTW rocks with a 20hz ported sub or a flat to 5hz system. It is like comparing your system with your PB13 tuned to 20hz with and without buttkickers, do the buttkickers make a difference? Also, that deep stuff also creates pressure to be added to the mix which the buttkickers don't get. The foot stomps and heat ray both are 20-25hz spl monsters BUT they also contain subtle effects down low. The difference is subtle but cool. I like cool.
post #5064 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What is your frequency set for on your buttkickers? You can figure things out fast if you LP them at 20hz and run them from 5-20hz. Then when they are going you know it is the deep stuff only. You can clearly then say which scenes have the low stuff and if it adds to the fun! Put it this way, WOTW rocks with a 20hz ported sub or a flat to 5hz system. It is like comparing your system with your PB13 tuned to 20hz with and without buttkickers, do the buttkickers make a difference? Also, that deep stuff also creates pressure to be added to the mix which the buttkickers don't get. The foot stomps and heat ray both are 20-25hz spl monsters BUT they also contain subtle effects down low. The difference is subtle but cool. I like cool.

Thanks MK and that makes sense. I hope to have a single digit sub system at some point.....I am sure it would add a whole new element that I dont have now. smile.gif The BK amp is at about 50hz right now. That is a great idea as far as doing the LP test. I will experiment with that at some point soon here.
post #5065 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks MK and that makes sense. I hope to have a single digit sub system at some point.....I am sure it would add a whole new element that I dont have now. smile.gif The BK amp is at about 50hz right now. That is a great idea as far as doing the LP test. I will experiment with that at some point soon here.

Cool, let us know how it turns out. Do the buttkickers vibrate the same no matter what frequency or are the lower frequencies slower?
post #5066 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cool, let us know how it turns out. Do the buttkickers vibrate the same no matter what frequency or are the lower frequencies slower?
I can't speak to the Buttkickers, but my Crowson Tactile Actuators have response to 3 to 5 Hz, and shaking at those low frequencies is a much different sensation than shaking up around 40 Hz. 40 Hz feels like vibration; at 5 Hz you can feel each oscillation of the movement. You said you like "cool"... well, "cool" is shaking at 5 Hz. You can't HEAR anything, but you definitely FEEL it. cool.gif

Craig
post #5067 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cool, let us know how it turns out. Do the buttkickers vibrate the same no matter what frequency or are the lower frequencies slower?
Buttkickers are just like speakers except without cones. So they vibrate at exactly the frequency they receive.
post #5068 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I can't speak to the Buttkickers, but my Crowson Tactile Actuators have response to 3 to 5 Hz, and shaking at those low frequencies is a much different sensation than shaking up around 40 Hz. 40 Hz feels like vibration; at 5 Hz you can feel each oscillation of the movement. You said you like "cool"... well, "cool" is shaking at 5 Hz. You can't HEAR anything, but you definitely FEEL it. cool.gif
Craig

Yes, it kind of wobbles the seats at low frequencies. .
post #5069 of 16084
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cool, let us know how it turns out. Do the buttkickers vibrate the same no matter what frequency or are the lower frequencies slower?

Like the posters above mention, the BK is basically a silent subwoofer and reacts differently depending on what the .1 throws at it, just like a sub. This is why if setup well the BK feels like a seamless natural extension of your subs. The more subs I have added, the more the BK just vanishes into the LFE frenzy which is what you want. The coolest sensation is what I call the imploding couch sensation which is rare, but it feels like the whole couch is imploding and is going to suck you in with it. biggrin.gif My BKs are mounted to a mini platform so the vibration is indirect which is much more convincing IMO.
Edited by Toe - 9/13/12 at 5:09pm
post #5070 of 16084
Avenger Bluray - DTS HD Master: Why have the producers actually destroyed the soundtrack below 30Hz confused.gif
(This is worse than Master and Commander Bluray DTS HD Master in English(we all know Castellano-version is BELOW reasonable single digit...) )

WHY ? are you(filmproducers) doing this to us - WHY?


13760297-the-number-three--the-colorful-face-of-a-dice-with-the-number-three.jpg
Edited by Flageborg - 9/15/12 at 6:21pm
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