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The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 220

post #6571 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

It's all about having fun - in a "hometheater" - no, this setup is not in my house, but at our local dealer - in one of their showrooms...
Did some testing today with a "new" disc - thanks to Superleo for this awesome collection of Bluray demo tracks smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391873/reference-blu-ray-demo-disc-bd9-dvd-dl-media-bd50

what/where are the subwoofers?
post #6572 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

It's happening on film - Hitman - chapter #16, when he parks the car outside - before the "shooting" takes place - and we love it smile.gif

Just had to do a new recording with my recent settings for Spectrum Lab...

If we could have more movies recorded with the same frequency range... smile.gif

Hitman - chapter #16

Hitman_Extreme_Edition_ch16.jpg
Edited by Flageborg - 12/18/12 at 12:34pm
post #6573 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kompany View Post

what/where are the subwoofers?

"Stacked" - behind the curtains...
post #6574 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Some years ago I was unfortunate enough to be in a mainline train station in London when a terrorist bomb exploded. I was about 100 yards from the blast and, fortunately, shielded from it by structural brickwork. I can tell you that there is no HT system in the world that comes even close to approximating what I heard and felt on that day. I was instantly (temporarily) deafened and I felt the blast in my chest like I had been hit there very hard by a sledgehammer. People closer to the blast were lifted bodily and flung through the air, some tragically losing their lives in the process. I have no idea what the frequencies of the blast sound were, but I can definitely say that I will never hear them in a theatre - and nor would anyone want to as physical and psychological damage can easily ensue. We will never have (or want) an accurate portrayal of a 'real explosion in our homes'. At best we have a 'concept' of what an explosion is like - a sort of sanitised version if you will. 

I have no experience of close-quarter gunfire, but I am told by friends who have served in active military duty that the sound levels made by live weapon fire are incredibly loud - far louder than we can experience in our HTs - and again, it's fortunate that we don't - if someone opens fire with a powerful automatic weapon, 6 inches from your unprotected ear (as you often see in movies) you will suffer permanent hearing damage.  So I don't think 'realism' is the aim really - a realistic portrayal that meets our expectations is perhaps more accurate.

You were likely hit with a shockwave which can't be reproduced by a speaker... that is a single wave of pressure travelling through the air. As far as audio goes a shockwave would be under 1Hz and at very high pressure levels. And as you said you wouldn't want a HT system to reproduce audio like that unless you want your house torn apart. lol
post #6575 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I will just say this, frequencies below 20hz exist in real life and on many movies, so why even bother changing it? I mean you can't get more accurate than real life as explosions and effects are concerned. If one wants to create a new sound for a movie and not include so be it but when an explosion goes off in real life I can guarantee you there are very low frequencies to add to the effect and in some movies they are missing, that is not accurate in my mind. To get all the "who wants a real explosion in our homes" out of the way we just turn it down. Go in your garage and slam your car door and feel the energy from it, why can't that happen on film? Realism is a good thing, of course, at 105 dBs and 115 dBs peak and not 130-150 dBs peak.

Some years ago I was unfortunate enough to be in a mainline train station in London when a terrorist bomb exploded. I was about 100 yards from the blast and, fortunately, shielded from it by structural brickwork. I can tell you that there is no HT system in the world that comes even close to approximating what I heard and felt on that day. I was instantly (temporarily) deafened and I felt the blast in my chest like I had been hit there very hard by a sledgehammer. People closer to the blast were lifted bodily and flung through the air, some tragically losing their lives in the process. I have no idea what the frequencies of the blast sound were, but I can definitely say that I will never hear them in a theatre - and nor would anyone want to as physical and psychological damage can easily ensue. We will never have (or want) an accurate portrayal of a 'real explosion in our homes'. At best we have a 'concept' of what an explosion is like - a sort of sanitised version if you will. 

I have no experience of close-quarter gunfire, but I am told by friends who have served in active military duty that the sound levels made by live weapon fire are incredibly loud - far louder than we can experience in our HTs - and again, it's fortunate that we don't - if someone opens fire with a powerful automatic weapon, 6 inches from your unprotected ear (as you often see in movies) you will suffer permanent hearing damage.  So I don't think 'realism' is the aim really - a realistic portrayal that meets our expectations is perhaps more accurate.

I can tell you that there is a reason why I wear hearing protection when i'm firing my .338 win mag. It's loud. wink.gif
post #6576 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I can't reallly have any kind of debate because you have a definition of full range that is different than the film industry as a whole.
You want it to mean 5Hz-20kHz...
Again, not trying to start a debate...
The commonlyy accetped range of human auditory frequency response is 20-20kHz...
You know I don't agree with the need for <18Hz monitoring....
We won't ever see eye to eye on that...
Again, as has been stated as naseum, there are many reasons why we don't strive for lower..
We don't need to go over some of the financial, practical, etc issues..
But even outside of that, I don't think there are many (if any) people in my line of work that think we need to do better than we are because you can do it at home..
So again, we can't really debate the subject without the common definitions of "full range" and what you deem superior vs. what the enitre industry practices as standard.
Hi Marc,

Please help me understand something...

The Dolby spec for a "full range" channel is 3 Hz to 20 kHz, correct?

If mixing control rooms are limited to 20 to 30 Hz reproduction capability, how does the infrasonic content get into the soundtrack? We know it's there because we can measure it, as many have done in this thread. Does the "sound designer" create an effect with infrasonic content, but the mixer only monitors the "sonic" portion of it? If that is the case, how can the mixer be sure that the effect was recorded at the proper level? Wouldn't the mixer want to be able to monitor the entire bandwidth of the effect to be sure it was recorded correctly?

Thanks for your insights.

Craig
post #6577 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

Actually, that quote goes for calibrating a subwoofer or multiples into a system, in a home environment, as this is the home theatre section afterall. But fine, let's agree to disagree then.. There's more stuff I don't agree with, starting with those dreadful genelec monitors you guys use, talk about listening fatigue eek.gif
But then again, I'm just really giving some of you guys a lot of credit, putting out great mixes with exactly that kind of equipment.
And yes, Dolby Atmos.. since when did full bandwith playback become more difficult to implement than to use dozens of extra speaker channels. I can see the 60.1 HT-in-a-box sets in the stores already wink.gif

Tim.. again, you use backhanded comments....

We do just fine on our "that kind of equipment.."

I don't need to defend how or why our business and industry has decided to monitor, calibrate, etc...

We do put out great mixes despite our best to muck it up but not monitoring ULF or using Genelec's as near fields.... rolleyes.gif

You're right.... I'll agree to disagree....

Best. Marc.
post #6578 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Marc,
Please help me understand something...
The Dolby spec for a "full range" channel is 3 Hz to 20 kHz, correct?
If mixing control rooms are limited to 20 to 30 Hz reproduction capability, how does the infrasonic content get into the soundtrack? We know it's there because we can measure it, as many have done in this thread. Does the "sound designer" create an effect with infrasonic content, but the mixer only monitors the "sonic" portion of it? If that is the case, how can the mixer be sure that the effect was recorded at the proper level? Wouldn't the mixer want to be able to monitor the entire bandwidth of the effect to be sure it was recorded correctly?
Thanks for your insights.
Craig

No.. that is the Dolby spec for recording bandwidth, not reproduction capability.

Most designers I've talked to can't monitor that content... most sound design rooms in our company don't go much lower than 15Hz, and others I've spoken to at other companies concur.

I'm not going to answer the bold question because we've been down this road too many times to count, and then people like Tim point out how much better their rooms are and we should all cater to that ideal.

That position presupposed the notion that everyone thinks that ULF content is valuable in capture, playback and reproduction... that conclusion is an opinion, and not a fact. smile.gif
post #6579 of 16108
I guess someone did not read my whole post. I said we don't want real levels of explosions, etc... 105 dBs and 115 dBs is good enough for me but like the real thing, unfiltered. I still enjoy movies that are filtered, old, etc... But I don't use them for audio demos. I have watched Avengers 5 times in my theater and enjoy it very much, I just don't put it in for a sub demo when I have many others with better. If avengers had the bass of FOTP, WOTW, or TIH it would be my go to demo for sure!
post #6580 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

No.. that is the Dolby spec for recording bandwidth, not reproduction capability.
Most designers I've talked to can't monitor that content... most sound design rooms in our company don't go much lower than 15Hz, and others I've spoken to at other companies concur.
I'm not going to answer the bold question because we've been down this road too many times to count, and then people like Tim point out how much better their rooms are and we should all cater to that ideal.
That position presupposed the notion that everyone thinks that ULF content is valuable in capture, playback and reproduction... that conclusion is an opinion, and not a fact. smile.gif
Marc, I'm still confused... if the sound designers can't get below 15 Hz, how does the content below that get into the mix? We have plenty of examples of sub-10 Hz content in movies. If the film industry says it can't do that and doesn't monitor it, how does it get in there?

Craig
post #6581 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Tim.. again, you use backhanded comments....
We do just fine on our "that kind of equipment.."
I don't need to defend how or why our business and industry has decided to monitor, calibrate, etc...
We do put out great mixes despite our best to muck it up but not monitoring ULF or using Genelec's as near fields.... rolleyes.gif
You're right.... I'll agree to disagree....
Best. Marc.

Marc

Please don't take my comments from a technical viewpoint as a personal insult, as I stated before, nothing but respect to your work.

And you're correct that whatever equipment is being used is none of our business. The only outcome of said equipment I regret is that certain material is getting filtered because on said equipment the effects go unnoticed and are perceived as a waste of dynamic range.

I do not believe I'm more skilled than a dolby technician, my statements come from personal preferences on which I try to keep an open but analytical mind.

Also note that English is not my native language and that some things are a bit more difficult for me to explain.

I believe we've gotten off on a wrong foot here. I apologize for equipment or method bashing, it's a discussion based on preference which never end well. Instead I'd like to work constructive, perhaps if some pro's like yourself could support us here, less material would get filtered to no ill effect whatsoever.

PS: I see you're working on riddick.. Hope you get 5 stars;-)
post #6582 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

Marc
Please don't take my comments from a technical viewpoint as a personal insult, as I stated before, nothing but respect to your work.
And you're correct that whatever equipment is being used is none of our business. The only outcome of said equipment I regret is that certain material is getting filtered because on said equipment the effects go unnoticed and are perceived as a waste of dynamic range.
I do not believe I'm more skilled than a dolby technician, my statements come from personal preferences on which I try to keep an open but analytical mind.
Also note that English is not my native language and that some things are a bit more difficult for me to explain.
I believe we've gotten off on a wrong foot here. I apologize for equipment or method bashing, it's a discussion based on preference which never end well. Instead I'd like to work constructive, perhaps if some pro's like yourself could support us here, less material would get filtered to no ill effect whatsoever.
PS: I see you're working on riddick.. Hope you get 5 stars;-)

Tim.. no offense was taken, no need to apologize... I've also got quite a sense of humor, and don't take most things to heart (even with a rolleyes emoticon. wink.gif)

And no wrong feet... having conversations and debates online is difficult, and I've had the pleasure of meeting many people from AVS in person..

"Riddick" is big in a couple of places.. lots of creatures, lots of guns.
post #6583 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Marc, I'm still confused... if the sound designers can't get below 15 Hz, how does the content below that get into the mix? We have plenty of examples of sub-10 Hz content in movies. If the film industry says it can't do that and doesn't monitor it, how does it get in there?
Craig

A lot of them (a generalization to be sure) can't monitor that low.. you don't need to be able to hear the content to put it into the track.
post #6584 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

A lot of them (a generalization to be sure) can't monitor that low.. you don't need to be able to hear the content to put it into the track.
OK, but how do you know it's at the right level if you can't monitor it it? Do you just make sure you don't get any "overs" and accept whatever you get below that?

Edit: Do you ever look at spectrographs of the content to "see" what is recorded?

Craig
Edited by craig john - 12/18/12 at 4:20pm
post #6585 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


That position presupposed the notion that everyone thinks that ULF content is valuable in capture, playback and reproduction... that conclusion is an opinion, and not a fact. smile.gif

As evidenced in Super 8 and countless other great bass movies. wink.gif
post #6586 of 16108
Not to fuel the flame here.. as I understand most theaters can't generate much below 20hz. I wonder if most soundtrack monitoring process don't pay much attention to ULF has anything to do with it..how many theaters actually use low-tuned (below 12hz for instance) ported subs?

The speclab graphs below are what I captured in an local theater which was regarded to be one of the most dynamic theaters , from the Hobbit (Timestamp starts from the first heard voice,please ignore the noise below 20Hz).

12'04" Part 1"



~Part2




1hr51'25" Part 1


~Part 2
post #6587 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by myav6000 View Post

.how many theaters actually use low-tuned (below 12hz for instance) ported subs?]
AFAIK none. They'd be too big and it would require too many of them, along with the amps to drive them. High output below 20Hz is mainly sourced by cabin gain, and theaters are too large for cabin gain to exist. The systems are high passed to prevent speaker damage, and that being the case there's no need to worry about what below 20Hz content is there since it won't get past the high pass filters anyway.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 12/18/12 at 8:42pm
post #6588 of 16108
Most theaters hit in the 40s and rarely go lower. Here, the only theater that truly hits even into the 30s or lower is the Warren(their new $20M WC IMAX hits in the 20s although seating position varies the experience)
. You can't tell me the Hobbit only goes into the 40s!
post #6589 of 16108
Don't they remix the audio for the bluray and dvd FOR home use?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
post #6590 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

That position presupposed the notion that everyone thinks that ULF content is valuable in capture, playback and reproduction... that conclusion is an opinion, and not a fact. smile.gif

Sorry if this has been asked before, but, im very curious. Have you heard a movie with lots of ULF on a system that could reproduce it? If so, what did you think of it?
post #6591 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post

You were likely hit with a shockwave which can't be reproduced by a speaker... that is a single wave of pressure travelling through the air. As far as audio goes a shockwave would be under 1Hz and at very high pressure levels. And as you said you wouldn't want a HT system to reproduce audio like that unless you want your house torn apart. lol

Quite likely. But it was also loud enough to deafen me completely for a little while and left my ears ringing for much longer. It was the loudest thing I have ever heard.

post #6592 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post
I can tell you that there is a reason why I wear hearing protection when i'm firing my .338 win mag. It's loud. wink.gif

 

Yes, that was my point. If our audio systems reproduced that noise at real-life levels, we'd have to wear ear defenders every time we watched a Michael Bay movie :)

post #6593 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I guess someone did not read my whole post. I said we don't want real levels of explosions, etc... 105 dBs and 115 dBs is good enough for me but like the real thing, unfiltered. I still enjoy movies that are filtered, old, etc... But I don't use them for audio demos. I have watched Avengers 5 times in my theater and enjoy it very much, I just don't put it in for a sub demo when I have many others with better. If avengers had the bass of FOTP, WOTW, or TIH it would be my go to demo for sure!

I agree. I wasn't trying to contradict you, but just adding another perspective and pointing out that our HTs are not really designed to achieve, nor capable of, realistic levels, at least so far as explosions are concerned.

 

When you said: "but when an explosion goes off in real life I can guarantee you there are very low frequencies to add to the effect and in some movies they are missing, that is not accurate in my mind. To get all the "who wants a real explosion in our homes" out of the way we just turn it down." 

 

... I did interpret that as you implying that we could get close to 'realistic' on explosions. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

post #6594 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Don't they remix the audio for the bluray and dvd FOR home use?
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

No. remastering is becoming more prevalent, and changes can be made in frequency (witness the Master and Commander highpass filter) but after spending many many thousands of dolars to get the mix the director and producer like, they don't turn a new mixer loose with all 300 wsome odd channels of audio to do it again.
post #6595 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I agree. I wasn't trying to contradict you, but just adding another perspective and pointing out that our HTs are not really designed to achieve, nor capable of, realistic levels, at least so far as explosions are concerned.
If you've ever been aboard a naval vessel doing live fire with 8 inch or larger guns you know that the decks are cleared first, not for ear protection, but so that crew won't be thrown overboard by the concussion.
post #6596 of 16108
I just watched X-men First Class last night and that is without a doubt the movie with more ULF than any other that i have seen to date! The movie is basically start to finish of just sub 20hz content. I set my VTF 15H to its deepest extension setting and the whole movie it was just shaking everything. You couldnt hear it really just feel it and watch the lights bounce around. That movie definitely had the woofer going crazy. Any time Magneto is using his powers expect some deep deep bass, and he uses them alot in the movie.

To date it was my favorite movie as far as bass goes out of all the 5 star moivies I have seen so far and I have seen almost all of them. It also was a very good movie in itself in my eyes.

If anyone wants to test there subwoofer out with some low content this is the one you want to watch. I couldnt imagine how amazing this movie would be with a real high performance sub that digs much lower and harder than my VTF 15H, say something like a Submersive HP. It would probably break something.
post #6597 of 16108

Just watched 1/2 of Total Recall last night...

 

This one is a bass fest! To my ears and body, this one is run HOT like Tron, and digs deep! It's got a nice array of some strong FR sweeps, but also has good upper bass. Half way through, I'd give it a 4.5...going to have to add this title to the library!

 

I know there was some initial reviews before the blu-ray release that were average...not sure if the blu-ray is different, but this one has bass/ULF in spades!

 

Has anyone spec lab'd this one yet? The opening scene is a great one, and when he first goes into ReKall during the fight scene was also impressive! Hopefully, the second half is just as good.

post #6598 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

AFAIK none. They'd be too big and it would require too many of them, along with the amps to drive them. High output below 20Hz is mainly sourced by cabin gain, and theaters are too large for cabin gain to exist. The systems are high passed to prevent speaker damage, and that being the case there's no need to worry about what below 20Hz content is there since it won't get past the high pass filters anyway.

You and I know this is crap but true. Just think, they use 4-8 subs from JBL and each one costs $1000. So $4000-$8000, if you can somehow contract them with THT's and for the same price you can put in 26 of them. Oh wait, you need to make money so let's say they are $700 each. That means they could put in 11 THT's which would get(based on my F-20's) about 130 dBs at 20hz outside so with no room gain they can generate 130 dBs at 2 meters at 20hz. Now we have theaters that can have 20hz output at reference! Of course most are built with the name brand subs which can't get low so why bother mixing low when the equipment can't. I accept that if a recording never had ULF's in the mix then so be it, I don't like the filtering of content that is on the recording to begin with.
post #6599 of 16108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You and I know this is crap but true. Just think, they use 4-8 subs from JBL and each one costs $1000. So $4000-$8000, if you can somehow contract them with THT's and for the same price you can put in 26 of them. Oh wait, you need to make money so let's say they are $700 each. That means they could put in 11 THT's which would get(based on my F-20's) about 130 dBs at 20hz outside so with no room gain they can generate 130 dBs at 2 meters at 20hz. Now we have theaters that can have 20hz output at reference! Of course most are built with the name brand subs which can't get low so why bother mixing low when the equipment can't. I accept that if a recording never had ULF's in the mix then so be it, I don't like the filtering of content that is on the recording to begin with.

Heck with two meters. To be within 50 feet of me in my usual commercial theaters, they'd have to be on the sidewalls, so you'd have to beef up said walls to reduce bleed through to the adjoining theater, put a false wall in front of the subs, and remove enough seating to keep the aisle legal under the fire codes. And the various subs won't add 6 dB each when no longer colocated, so one of the "hey, I can actually get broad flat response in the bass" benefits of a commercial theater (room too big for cabin gain or nodes to control bass response) gets eliminated by the interaction of multiple subs at multiple locations fighting each other.

And while I cannot in any way speak for Bill, I know a lot of his work is in music reproduction (and bass instrument reproduction) where flat to 40 Hz is not necessarily a desirable trait(!), or at least not commonly provided. Let alone flat to or below 20 Hz. Yet somehow those fools at my local dance and live music bars are able to find the beat and dance (well at least some of them are - there's always somebody who seems to hear the proverbial different drummer more clearly than the actual drummer)
post #6600 of 16108
This looks like it might be worth checking out in the theaters. Another heavy big bass movie might be on the way......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K529HU8bB8A
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