Samsung D7000 & D8000 Settings/Calibration Thread - Page 85

Hello, what I have noticed on my particular set, red is too bright and orangy on Auto Color Space and Blue is towards Purple, Bluish-Purple. Green is Yellowish.
If I switch it to Custom without any variables entered in, red get's less bright and appears more red, blue looks blue, Green also looks more greenish. The secondaries appear different two but harder to tell using color bars to see the changes when switching Auto, to Custom. Native I don't really use. This is just visual observations not using a meter. Currently I don't own one.

Thanks, this is starting to make sense now. I have tried your 1-235 ADC pattern displayed from my Oppo bluray player in each color space like this:


Using PC Level the calibration completes very quickly and does not change the default values I entered. I'm assuming this is because its using a full 1-255 range?

The 1-135 should be used with full range RGB (PC levels) but novadays every siingle mediaplayer handles these thing differently, so don't trust in that.

I suggest to keep with 130/73

Ok, corrected the ADC.

I made two attempts to follow your procedure. I am using CAL-Night with color and grayscale at defaults. Gamma +1 (59PND7000). Color and tint adjusted with blue only mode (46, 52/48).

Trial 1: Used the emulator to calibrate ADC and make ADC/WB adjustments, ALL in movie mode (with factory resets). Set blue and green gains to 110, 90 in ADC/WB. HCFR result (CAL-Night, cool tone): red gain at 140%, luminance spread, gamma lower than expected.

Trial 2: Reset both Dynamic and Movie ADC/WB to 128 using emulator, factory reset. Entered SM using normal remote control (Mute-1-8-2-PWR). Performed ADC calibration with 1-235 pattern (via 4:2:2, result 130/73). Factory reset. Entered SM again with normal remote and set ADC/WB (110, 90). Factory reset. HCFR result: red gain still 140%, luminance tightened, gamma 2.2 but sloped.

Results attached. What am I doing wrong?

 

NewMainBd1.zip 1.6943359375k . file

You don't need to re-calibrate the ADC every time, just leave them at 130/73.

I didn't say you should copy the 128-110-90 settings!


Ok, so:

1: Enter the SM (no need to use the Factory key in the emulator, use your IR remote).
Opcional: Calibrate your ADC if you haven't done so already (and do a factory reset if you re-calibrated or manually changed the ADC Results!).

2: Reset the WB settings to all-128 and use your color sensor to set the white point to D65 on a 100% window pattern by lowering only two of the Gains (leave the other six at 128 and do not increase anything above 128).

3: Exit from the SM with a factory reset, switch to Movie or Cal-Day/Night and select Cool, set the Sharpness to 0 and disable any other "enhancements".

4: Now you should have the white chromaticity close to D65, so you can skip the 2p WP and make some small adjustments with the 10p system. (But you should not increase the xxx-Gain you kept 128 in the SM at the 10/10 point of the 10p).

5: Skip the Color and Tint, use the Custom color space. (I recommend 100% level window patterns instead of 75% level.)

Got ya, thanks Janos. Since you ballparked it, I just wanted to see if it got me anywhere near d65. What I didn't realize is the default dynamic mode for the normal SM was cool! Head smack. Now I understand I can do the gains while in the SM. Also, I think I now understand the advantage of using cool is that it has no additional WB settings (unlike movie). I'm a little slow.

Guess I'm also a little obsessed with the fact that my WB is so much different than everyone else's after this main bord swap. I'll get over it and move on.

Forgive me but I must post this here:

1:
People, please ask calibration related questions in the appropriate forum topics instead of writing private messages.

It's not that I do not wish to read and answer PMs when I have time but I also read these topics and post answers here when I have the time and the mood.
And you will probably get your answers more quickly if more people can read your questions.
Moreover, I am not "the cal guy", I also make mistakes from time to time, so it's always good to hear more opinions. (But better way to do it here rather than sending out tons of private messages, I guess...)


2:
The Service Menu is not a magical tool.
You probably do not need to use it unless you want to achieve something specific.

Some examples:
- You are trying to calibrate your TV for yourself with your own color sensor.
- You wish to copy somebody else's calibrated settings which specifically instructs you to do service menu adjustments.
- You are simply curious but you will no modify anything you don't understand. (For example: Please, do NOT hit MICOM upgrade!)
(+ Logic board update but Zoyd documented that procedure very nicely, so read the appropriate topic and post your logic board update related questions there.)

And these scenarios are still dangerous. But without these reasons, it will probably give you no benefits if you enter the SM, only cause you possible troubles.



Sorry, but I started to receive a lot of private messages which gave me very few details about what do you exactly try to achieve with the SM. So I started to assume that my posts here may motivate some people to get themselves into serious troubles and I do not want that!
(But no problem, I am not mad about those messages at all, I am just trying to move the conversations here.)

So, if you still plan to hit me with a PM (or may be post it here ) then at least give me as much details as you can:
- Do you have your own color sensor or do you wish to copy somebody's settings?
- What exactly do you try to achieve? What is you exact purpose?


Thanks.

hey guys,im interested in getting my own colorimeter,and was wondering if http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Datacolo...eter&cp=1&lp=1this would work for my pn64d8000. my laptop is running windows7 so i dont know if its compatible or not?

Yes, that Spyder4 meter will do the job. And it probably is compatible with the new version of the free HCFR calibration program. See this thread over in the Calibration Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393853.

EDIT: Even though the software that comes with the meter is for Apple products, the new HCFR is for Windows only -- at least for now. The Spyder should interface with HCFR.

Here is some more detail about the meter: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...LOR-_-32994011.

Larry

Many thanks for your help, Janos. This appears to be an optimal solution to my problem. I had to drop both red and blue gains to under 100, but after that the 10p cleaned everything up nicely. I still have very significant white clipping at a contrast of 95 (everything above 236, and the color clipping pattern was even worse, about 231) but dropping to 90 lets most white levels through. Thankfully, pinking is totally eliminated, even when WTW is clipped. I will play around a bit more with my ADC calibration procedure to see if I can get contrast to 95 (guessing I still need a real 1-255 output).

I will echo Janos' request to keep these discussions in the appropriate threads. They can provide a valuable resource for people in the future (assuming they are willing and able to use the search function and spend some time reading )

I have a few questions for any or all of Zoyd, Janos, Avid, Larry ...

I've read everything I can find in this thread about the SM and ADC settings/calibration. I have copied and printed the detailed "how to" by Janos and have downloaded both Janos' and Zoyd's patterns. I'm just not sure which one pattern to use.

My TV is a PN51D8000 with fw 1026.0 and the logic sw 11-10-31 even though I don't see much in the way of fbr.

My default ADC Result and White Balance settings are (I have not changed anything):

ADC Result
2nd_R_L 130
2nd_G_L 130
2nd_B_L 130
2nd_R_H 67
2nd_G_H 67
2nd_B_H 67

White Balance
Sub Brightness 128
Sub Contrast 132
R-Offset 118
G-Offset 128
B-Offset 137
R-Gain 127
G-Gain 128
B-Gain 136

Larry, I believe, posted awhile back that the 2nd_RGB_H values should be 107 for the D8000, so 67 is not even close. I've seen a lot about the White Balance settings should not be over 128, but two of mine are.

My grayscale calibrations require an inordinate amount of red gain, but I end up with nice low dEs eventually. BUT the gray screens have obvious color tinting, and those screens look nice and gray when I do 2p reset and turn 10p off. I use Chromapure with the D3 Pro (calibrated) probe.

I just found out that my BR player should have been connected to HDMI 1. It wasn't but now is. Later on tonight I'll see if that makes a difference.

Now to my questions before I start trying to do ADC calibrations and get into this any deeper.

1. Is all the info on this subject in this thread applicable to US models, particularly the D8000, or is some of it EU specific?
2. Is there a Final Answer as to which ADC pattern to use in ADC calibration? I have no interest in attaching a PC, if that matters.
3. I guess this is actually part of the question above, but can somebody clarify the different approaches used by Janos and Zoyd for these settings?
4. And, finally, can somebody explain why the WP is set in Dynamic Mode/Cool and what that means for subsequent use of, in particular, Movie Mode (& Warm2?)

Thanks for any help

...after the adjustments. It's usually >128 by default. This is what causes the pinkish near-white in a factory default Movie mode (+ that Warm2 pushes the Red even higher...). And this is how you fix that without lowering the Contrast.

1: Should not matter.
2: It's the best to use a PC because you never know what really happens inside a "black box" (aka "media player"). But you should use the media player setting which brings you close to the reference values (from the Service Manual) or enter the ADC Results manually (either the one from the Service Manual or from somebody who used trusted source device and checked the debug log on the serial port during the calibration to make sure it was a perfect match...).
3: Could you please highlight those differences?
4: You set the SM base WP in Dynamic/Cool because Warm2 is an offset to that and you can't modify Warm2 without using a serial cable. (And it isn't required at all because Cool is cool. It's cool to use Cool for the SM adjustment and use Cool in Movie mode. It's all Cool because it means zero offset to the base WP. It's a straight way across the labyrinth... )

I will try to add to what Janos has said in case there is still any confusion...


This is only required for feeding it the ADC test pattern.


2. Janos uses a "standard" pattern (1-235) which he has confirmed to be optimal, but as he reminds us this MUST be displayed in full range RGB (and I have not yet been able to get my computer to cooperate).
3. I believe what zoyd has tried to do is to simplify things a bit with his test patterns while giving you some other options. First, they are designed to be displayed from your bluray player in YCbCr color space. Second, he provides different ranges which clip some levels (those of questionable importance for DVD/Bluray) before expanding the 8 bit DVD/Bluray signal into the TVs native 10 bit color space.
4. Janos puts it quite nicely , and this became clear to me once I used the service remote emulator to switch to Movie mode within the SM before viewing the ADC/WB settings. You will see that Movie mode has its own set of ADC/WB adjustments (which are locked in), while the Cool color tone in Dynamic does not. If you calibrate using Janos' method (which calibrates Cool to D65), this is the only way to ensure all the ADC/WB settings will remain at or below below 128.

For everyone's reference, here are some of zoyd's comments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21627792
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21699269

Good to know. Thanks.


Not sure what you mean by "enter the ADC Results manually (the one from the Service Manual",) but am I correct to assume that by "from somebody who used trusted source device and checked the debug log" you mean yourself and your 128 settings?



Sure. I didn't ask this one very well. You guys favor different patterns for ADC calibration, and it seems to me that it has to do with PC compatible settings (you) and video settings (Zoyd.) I'm hoping to avoid having to take into account yet another black box (PC) and its video card settings and don't want to set up my desktop beside my TV. This and the fact that in the end I'll be playing BR discs from a player, not a PC. Maybe (likely, actually) I misunderstand.



Cool. So you end up with the same warmish picture that movies come with? But sometimes, especially for certain sporting events I like to use a cooler color temp setting, and if Cool is Rec709 I'm thinking it's already as cool as it gets. Won't the cool color temp be what warm2 used to be and all "warmer" color temps (which is all the rest) be useless? Doesn't this calibration of Cool apply to all of the video modes, not just Movie? Or do I misunderstand yet again?

Thanks. That helped. So with this method you don't have to use the emulator?

I had already found and printed the first link but not the second. Thanks for the addition to my notebook!

Yes, just use the normal remote to enter the SM - this defaults to Dynamic mode (with a Cool color tone) so you can follow Janos' above procedure. As you have pointed out, Cool then becomes more akin to Warm 2 (but with grayscale nearly calibrated!).

If you have the CAL modes enabled, looks like you are still free to abuse the Movie mode with a nice strong blue gain for sports or whatever (but OTA sports broadcasts look perfect to me with calibration ). The other color tone modes might be screwy because they scale relative to (on top of) the ADC/WB calibration, but I haven't played with them to see.

So what mode do you then use? It isn't Dynamic; advanced settings are not available. 10point isn't available in Standard. Do you just use Cool temp with Movie mode so you can get at all the settings???

I have found that CAL D/N looks different than Movie with all the exact same settings. Like you said the other modes scale relative to ADC/WB, and I think that includes CAL D/N is different someplace in the SM than Movie.

Yes, you basically end up with 3 modes, 2 of which (CAL-D/N) share white balance settings (and all share color calibration I think, unless you work some debug menu magic like zoyd). After setting Movie and CAL modes to Cool, and making sure all other settings are the same, they look very similar to me. Maybe because they are all using the exact same, calibrated color tone? Anyway, I'm quite happy with this arrangement so far...

Hi guys,

Just upgraded from a Sharp 52LCD to the PS64D8000 and even if i ironed out most settings i am left with a few questions that i hope you can answer:

1. I use the TV as a PC monitor and movies so i notice:
a. some flicker of wight areas. someone suggested renaming the HDMI->DVI input to PC (but that changed all my calibration settings, so i went back).
Anyone know how to fix it? (i`m running on 60hz). This is the most important aspect!
b. When i switch from window to window, sometimes the white get's brighter, and then when i switch back it defaults to less bright.?!

2. Is there a way to save setting presets?! i`m asking because i see multiple calibration settings and would want to check the difference somehow.

3. on the second post there are 2 preset settings that should improve on the first post but i don't understand the difference:
1. Uses fixed APL patterns instead of variable.
2. Movie mode color is dialed in if you want to use it instead of CAL modes.
What is apl/CAL?

thanks for any help!

Items that will improve your video quality:

0. Run Windows 7 x64. Much faster processing than 32-bit as well as better I/O and memory management. Also able to productively use more than 4 GByte memory.

1. Use a discrete video card. On-board video is designed for a low price point, not function.

2. Visit the video card vendor's website and download the most current release video driver. No need to go to Beta releases.

3. Go into "custom" mode during the card driver install to ensure all 3D features will be installed. If available, take the option to clear your settings. A clean configuration could clear out some unfortunate parameters.

4. Ensure your system has adequate memory, and that it's the fastest speed your motherboard supports. It's unlikely your video card will have adequate on-card memory, it will also use system memory. 4 GByte system memory would be cramped, 8 - 12 GByte makes more sense. DDR3 prices are very low, look for DDR3 10600 or better memory. System vendors, even Apple, save a few pennies by shipping with slower DDR3 8500 modules.

5. Use the optimal connection. 3D needs a lot of throughput. In my opinion, from best to worst:
... HDMI (from HDMI or DisplayPort on card)
... HDMI from DVI on card. 1920 x 1080 is close to single-link DVI max bandwidth.
... Component
... VGA

6. Run Windows update or go to vendor websites to update other drivers. It's unusual these days to find an update that does more harm than good. Some that would be important:
... Motherboard BIOS
... Storage driver (ICH for Intel chipset). Can dramatically improve disk throughput.
... Anything labeled "essential update" from the system vendor.

7. Don't let the Samsung do you any favors. Disable:
... Screen Size/Picture Size = Screen Fit
... Turn off: Black tone, dynamic contrast, edge enhancement, motion lighting.

8. Make the Samsung the primary display. Some features may only work on the primary display.

9. Try 16-bit color instead of 32-bit. If everything gets better, except color rendition, then you're definitely pushing some piece of your PC past its capabilities.

Hope this helps.

Nick F.

Nick provides some good suggestions, but remember you purchased a TV not a computer monitor. There are limitations.


This may be ABL (automatic brightness limiting) in action, a system every plasma display must use to manage power requirements. FBr may also come into play, so consider installing the logic upgrade (note this was designed for NA hardware, but has worked fine in other countries).


Not really, each picture preset is a little different so they're not really suited to making comparisons. However, enabling the CAL modes will "save" them (even after a factory reset) and can transfer them to all sources.


CAL refers to the special calibration modes (CAL-DAY and CAL-NIGHT) which can be activated in the service menu. They are kind of like adding two additional Movie modes and share many calibration settings. Fixed APL refers to the test pattern being used to perform the calibration - advantages of fixed APL versus the normal window patterns is debatable. Anyway, if you are simply copying someones calibration, there is no reason to worry about this difference. EVERY SET IS DIFFERENT, so the odds of a copied calibration actually improving your picture compared with default movie mode are probably 50/50. You may have better odds copying a color calibration, but with grayscale its probably a crap shoot. You should absolutely use your own test disc to set contrast, brightness, sharpness, color and tint before playing with calibrations.

consider installing the logic upgrade
You mean this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1389562 ?



Any way of pointing me towards Nick?

Thanks Avid, that helped a lot... thing is i`ve been using LCDs for the past 5 years. Started out with 42" Phillips which had just beautiful performance as a monitor (crisp writing and good contrast). Then i upgraded to 52 inch sharp which had bleeding of the red and blue color in desktop mode.

My current set is crisp and has beautiful colors, but the flicker is annoying and it makes my head hurt a bit. I really hope i don't have to return the set because of this.

thanks for the reply. i never wanted to watch 3D in Windows... i am not capable to see 3D, just wanted to get rid of the flicker... which i found out it not possible... i`ll try to LG Plasma and hope for the best

Good luck!

BTW, for anyone using their plasma as a computer monitor, you have a very convenient option to calibrate it (only for the PC source of course) - buy an eye-one display 2 or similar and simply run the included automatic calibration software. This will set up a customized monitor profile for your plasma.

So has anyone else measured the saturation tracking on their D7 or D8? The dE vs. saturation calculations in HCFR are incorrect so I used the spreadsheet available in this thread.

After calibrating color using standard size 100% luminance windows I ran the saturation sequence with the following results.







Note that the 100% saturation points (which are also at 100% luminance) that were used for calibration look fine but there is a severe kink at 75% saturation in green and magenta and oversaturation in cyan. Red is also undersaturated and has a too-high luminance. These produce dE errors > 6. Has anyone else seen this non-linear color behavior? I don't believe it's the color decoder because when adjusting I noticed that the luminance control in the CMS (Red/Red, Green/Green, etc.) changes the saturation as well as luminance so these things are coupled which will lead to non-linear behavior relative to the white point.

I have that spreadsheet, have done 75% sat calibrations, and it is very laborious. Some say that calibrating at 75% saturation is the way to go, but since none of the software products that I own have that capability and the AVSHD disc has non-APL 75% sat windows in the ColorHCFR section ...

Maybe some of you guys with pattern generators and accompanying software can do this?

I was wondering if the Green/Magenta "S" curve is typical of these displays or if I've got something set wrong? I can put the 75% saturation point on target but it just moves the curve over and creates errors elsewhere.

I found the lower luminance level patterns get you closer to an optimized dE than the 100% do. In fact, I use a custom 50% luminance patterns to do the initial color calibration and then tweak it to fix red/magenta using your displaycal verification reports. First attempt is attached, there is some room for improvement but I'm slower than you at it. (Thanks for those by the way). I also found that the kink in the saturation tracking for green went away when I used movie mode instead of cal day/night. I don't know if this is the case for others but I'd recommend running the saturation patterns to check if you are using cal day/night. As for trying to calibrate at 75% saturation (as opposed to 75% luminance) mentioned earlier, I don't think it's necessary using the optimization approach you are using since it performs a similar function by finding and minimizing larger dE points over a wide range of color codes.

verification report

What will be the impact on calibration of installing the Samsung D series FBr fix?

No effect, you should check your brightness setting just to be sure.