Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 69

Yes they are variable, but my amp has a list of issues including the small fans not working and large fans staying on high
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421105/fp1000oq-clone-issues

I didn't notice speed issues with my amp (10000Q) but I did notice every time the VPL lights up during a bass note, my amp makes a clicking noise...It always clicks when the VPL lights up...ALWAYS!

The speed issues I noticed with my amp is when I turn it own.
What I mean is, if my amp was off for a couple of hours and then turn it on...it spins fast then slows down after a couple of seconds.
If it's been off for a day or more, when I turn it on the fans spin a different speeds and finally slows down after a couple of seconds. It's like its charging and drawing so much current that even the fans are depleted of power.
Hope this helps

Thanks, mine right now fluctuates up and down a couole times at first power on then stays in high. Seems like the fans spin alittle faster also if the gain is up all the way vs turned down below half or so.

Ya problem is were comparing a defective product to a working product...not sure what else to tell you.
I really hope you get your amp going and soon.

Hahahahahah ! How or why did it stop working ? How do these amps really break down, from excesssive abuse or just normal casual use ??

Usually, conventional amps will experience voltage drop on the rails (caps) on big hard low bass hit , slowing the fan speed or dimming its lights. However, this voltage sag does not affect Power Factor Compensating amps, The original Lab Gruppen has that feature .
I have seen instances where the lights got brighter instead of dimmer on a low frequency hit . ( Carver TFM55). and other Carvers too.
Crown CE 4000 has that feature and many other sophisticated class D amps .

I need some inputs from an on the ground, practical field expert.
I want to go heavier / harder on my mids. Moving from 500 - 600 watts midrange units to 1000 - 1200 watts. My observation and hence problem is that the 12" and 15" speakers rated at these power ( 300 - 600 Watts) plays better mid frequencies than those heavy 1000 - 1200 watts woofers . Hence, as I add the bigger amps to the higher wattage speakers, the increase in SPL power @(124 Hz – 1000Hz.) is hardly justifiable. Maybe I would have gotten better results doubling up on the number of the same 500 - 600 midrange speakers. This would mean more boxes and more size which I do not need.
Am I right on this??

Madman can you elaborate on this a little? the FP14000 clones have a Voltage Clip (VCP) but what is column VPL?

I also tried to clear up your table, let me know if this is what you intended to post.

(corrected table spacing)

[__Input Sensitivity_]______[__VCL settings___]______Outputs

__35________38________VCP________VPL________Out Watts
__2.4________1.7________195________138________4400
__2.1________1.5________170________120________3600

_* 1.8________1.2________140_________ 99________2500

__1.5________1__________116_________82_________170

Javi404; I originally had it in a table format but as I copy, paste and post, it became disorganized. This spec was taken from the original Lab Gruppen FP14000 Manual. So providing that the clone is a true clone, specs should be virtually the same. VPL means Voltage Peak Limit. Amps outputs its signal as AC voltage . The voltage decreases with resistance load (Ohms) . This data is for 4 ohm load. VPL would be higher at 8 ohms and lower at 2 ohms. Each speaker would be exposed to that stated voltage.

Got it thanks.

On paper and according to Notnyt , the host, these amps are real monsters. I am still using Yorkville Ap6040s on my subs, which drives, in measured power, about 1700 watts per channel @ 4 Ohms. (850 watts per speaker). For a small Gig two months ago, I drove my Yorkies at 8 ohms (1200 watts per speaker) very hard and continuously for over 12 hours and ended up burning 3 of my respectable Selenium 18SWS800 woofers. Since I was driving at clip, DC voltage exposure led to thermal breakdown. However, if I load 6 woofers (3 per side) on the FP14000, set at 140 VCP, I should get 1200 watts per speaker, distortion free, while the amp would only be producing about half of its 14000 watts maximum power. (7200 needed). The 1200 watts that each speaker would be receiving will be distortion free and so my Selenium should be able to handle it without thermal overload. Notnyt endorses the plan, says I am safe and good to go, the upgrade will be significant and should provide longevity considering that the amps will spend its lifetime cruising.
After which I would put the AP6040s on midrange duties , taking over from the AP4040s.

LMAO

Whats going on here?

New poster been hanging around the clone threads and now has NOT as an advisor of sorts?

Now NOT steps in to defend himself.

NOT to the rescue, of himself, LOL!


Whats going on Madman? Why the slander?

NOT has always been a straight forward poster and has helped the DIY people here for quite some time so why bring him into something if he truly didnt say what he's defending himself from?

Weird!

But good luck not frying any more subs!

12 hours of continuous play? You lose a woofer or two and the show goes on. You lose an amp like that and you've got one hell of a train wreck on your hands. I'll go out on a limb and say that reliability is one of the things you pay extra for when you buy a brand-name amp. In a home theater I can see the appeal of saving that much money for that much power... but for a gig? You are better off just not clipping your amps

Sorry but... is there any "expert" that is able to do concrete measurements on fp14k?

what kind of subs are you using ? SRX ?

Inside gig, outside gig, live band, dj music? 2 people or 5000 people... I know you said small gig, that's relative....

Sounds like one of two things... you were playing too loud, or there wasn't enough "rig for the gig"...either way I don't think the amps are going to "save you"....
Just my two cents.

What kind of measurement? max power right below clipping @ 4Ohm bridged perhaps?

Didn't Bosso show a power comparsion between some clone amps and heavy hitting crown amps or something? The clone amps had more power for much less. I am running around 6 ohms on my bridged FP14K with no problems. This thing is awesome!

javi 404 : I think that a measurement of rms power ( 2 x 8 Ohm) with an oscilloscope that's enough..
Edited by tatankasardo - 10/11/12 at 2:09pm

I know, that was my poor attempt at sarcasm. (I read almost this whole thread before my first post)

I don't have anything that wouldn't blow up pushed by this amp and the bottle neck for me would be the wall outlet.

perhaps someone has an 8 ohm resistive load capable of absorbing lots of power which wouldn't be a true test but give a good idea of what we are dealing with.


Here is the business end of the amps internals, the devices in mine anyway.

16x

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NJW21194

don't know the circuit diagram but they are rated at 250V 15A

part is NJW21193G
Edited by javi404 - 10/11/12 at 4:00pm

In all seriousness.

The most long term rms power even the lab FP14000 would be able to draw is around 3779 Watts.

according to lab. 230v ac @16A draw is the max rating. This does not mean it can't pull more power and deliver 90% of it to the output. Just that for long term use, that is what your going to get before you blow the breaker or more likely an internal fuse. All amplifier manufactures (and speaker manufacturers for that matter) rate all their devices differently. How long can they produce that power is a whole other story.

There is a huge difference between delivering 14,000Watt sine waves for 3 hours and listening to loud bursts for short periods of time.

The industry as a whole needs to decide on a fair way to measure their products, a fair test.

14,000Watt continuous at the service to your house would be something around 230v @60amps

You can see why amps and speakers are rated at "peak power" or "music power" and such. anything to inflate the numbers.
But in all fairness, no one is listening to sine waves for extended periods of time @ 14,000Watts
Its the transients and short bursts that take lots of power capability, to deliver without clipping the output signal. (thats why there are usually tons of large value capacitors in large amplifiers)
Headroom is always nice to have.


That's my rant on measuring amplifiers.

^^^ Like it and agree 100%. Problem there also is a decent amount of the amps coming from sanway with 240v mods to them are not working out so well thus far. I dont know of but a few that have chosen this option, and I wanted to initially, but chose to take safer road...Glad I did. My main interest is how long the LG's can maintain a "burst" number. yes there are a lot of caps in there, but enough to even overcome close to 10,000 watts difference? #notbuyingit but I dont know the technicalities so don't flame me anyone. Main point however, IIRC, the 14k and 10q from actual LG have dual power cords IIRC, i need to double check that...

Well that changes the game. I just re-read their spec sheet and i think you may be correct but the wording isn't clear enough for me.

http://labgruppen.com/media/downloads/product/CDTD-FP14000.pdf

from *2 in the fine print it says:

"Current draw figures measured at 230 V. 115 V figures are 230 V figures multiplied by two."

that makes no sense to me. sounds like the 115v figures are = 230 figures x2?

Edit: Did they mean divided by 2?

I have had many laughs in other forums of contributors disagreeing and sometimes cursing each other down, though sometimes they argue the same point. I think I understand the psychi. I just love my speakers, amps and wires and enjoy the discourse. On Page 64, on the issue of loading 6 speakers on the clone ( 3 per channel) Not said he would even put four. (Endorsing my idea of 3 x3 load on the clone).
For the other guys willing or offering advises on the burnt out speakers, don't worry, I took my chances and lost. You see, I played at that level before many times over and came home intact. The difference is that I usually play for 5 or 6 hours at different levels with interval breaks. This time it was 4 pm to 6am of continuous hard clipping. For that abuse I should have increase my limit output by -1db and also enable my amps clip limiters.
After reading the above you would now realize, I am a man who squeeze every usable watts of power from my amps.
The basic idea of bigger amps provide cleaner power (< THD) at a particular wattage is an old fundamental fact all soundman know, hence producing less thermal built up on speaker units. Some other technical veteran will sooner or later elaborate.

Not, I think there is a misunderstanding. I meant that it changes the game if the real labs really did come with 2x power cables. (i need to have my posts proofed maybe)

If you had 2 dedicated lines run with dedicated breakers, and 2 power cords from the amp, feeding 2 power supplies, then that would be double the power would it not?. But that doesn't seem likely as a design option, and i didn't see anything in the lab document to indicate that was the case. I was responding to beastaudio's post about dual power cords.

Just a note, many old high power computer servers have 3 power supplies for redundancy. It is not uncommon for an enterprise data-center to have A,B,C power. The idea is that you plug each power cord into A,B,C power and so if either a power supply or one of the 3 power circuits in the data-center failed, machine stays running. Considering the real lab 14K is a powerful amp made for touring I didn't think it was impossible that it could have 2 power cords meant for the purpose of feeding the beast more power. Not sure where you read in my reply to beastaudio that i agreed that was a fact, just that if it was true that was the case.

Show me where I don't understand basic electronics please?

Yes high-power square-waves will do that.

This is why you should never drive an amp to its clip lights or in the case of the clones, beyond its -4db lights.

I second notnyt in that more wattage doesn't mean it will be protected or not smoke to any lesser degree; *with the stipulation that, not having DC square-waves going into the coil will produce less driver failures in general vs the actual unclipped program material. Just to be super-clear.




A maximum of ~3600w RMS output for ~1 second *IF* it were 100% efficient (which it is not). Thus closer to a maximum of 1500w RMS per channel. With peaks into X kW's. As I have already disseminated in lengthy detail this same exact topic like 4000 pages ago