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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 79

post #2341 of 4397
I have used many different amps for subs.

Ada MPA-500
Ep-2500 and 4000
Samson S2000's
Ashly FTW-2000's
Dayton 1000 watt monos
Clone 10Q and 14k

The clones work the best for me. The Ada's were awesome if under 700 watts were only needed. I am using 12 drivers on one bridged clone and I would love the find the one person that needs more for my room. I can not reach the limits unless I risk damaging my ears from too much pressure. I want to try the clones with my speakers and see what changes from my Ada amp if anything. More power should not be needs though.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2342 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ape3435 View Post

Greetings to all and a happy new year when it arrives.
I have been following this thread for a while now and taken into consideration all that has been said about the Sanway amplifiers. I have a couple of questions about the 10000q which will help me to decide between the FP10000Q and the FP14000.
First question, can the 10000q be safely used at 2.66ohms now that it's problems have been ironed out, and is the VCL as good as it should be? Reasons for my questions are that I am intending on series parallel connection on 4 dual 15" (8x15") and using the 10000q bridged at just over 4000 watts which will be too much for the drivers so would apply the VCL settings to reduce the power.
I could use the FP14000 but it only output 2350 watts at 8ohms so would not be enough driving 4 600 watts rms transducers.
Any comments/suggestions will be much appreciated as some of you have first hand experience of these amplifiers. I have confirmed with Johnson that the 10000q problems have been resolved but the users of the amplifiers should be able to attest to Johnsons claims.
B.T.

You're trying to power 8 subs with one amp? Unless your trying to preserve money, isn't that spreading the power a bit thin?
Steve Meade for example has only 4 18's but he uses 8 monoblocks, one PER COIL.
Power is an enabler, only woofer heat and excursions matter; and if your not enabled, then your disabled, right? tongue.gif

post #2343 of 4397
Not sure if your whole post is tongue in cheek. Watts are watts if if they are coming from one amp or several. The post right above your reply states that he is driving 12 subs from one amp.
post #2344 of 4397
I'm also running 8 x 18s with my 14k clone. I'm definitely not power limited and the amp is just coasting along. After hard demo sessions the case is literally still cold to the touch.
post #2345 of 4397
Gorilla83, you mentioned 8x18"s on an FP14000, is the amp stereo and are the speakers hooked up parallel? If so, I was under the impression that the FP14000 was not safe being operated at 2ohms, Johnson even confirmed that in an email to me.

As for 8x600w rms drivers in series parallel hook up on any amp in stereo mode yielding over 4000w per channel at 8ohms, there should be no problem at all as each driver would be ok at say 900w equalling a total of 7200w but the amp outputs about 8500-9000w which is what I am afraid of so would apply the VCL.

Is the 10000q safe at 2.66ohms?
post #2346 of 4397
I wouldn't run any of the clone amps at 2 ohms.

My subs are 4 on each channel in series/parallel configuration for 4 ohms per channel.
post #2347 of 4397
Ok cool, I guess your 18s are 4ohms each. My 15s are 8ohms each so series parallel would yield 8ohms per amp channel which would not produce enough wattage. mad.gif
post #2348 of 4397
I wired each driver and then cabs so I had one 6.3 ohm load and then used my bridged 14k.
post #2349 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ape3435 View Post

Ok cool, I guess your 18s are 4ohms each. My 15s are 8ohms each so series parallel would yield 8ohms per amp channel which would not produce enough wattage. mad.gif

Yes, mine are 4 ohm. You have 8 X 8 ohm drivers, right? If so, get the 10K clone and run 2 per channel (4 channels) in parallel for a 4 ohm load per.
post #2350 of 4397
just ordered myself a fp1000q, good news is that sanway takes paypal now! back when i ordered my 2x fp14000's the only method he was taking was bank wire.
post #2351 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

just ordered myself a fp1000q, good news is that sanway takes paypal now! back when i ordered my 2x fp14000's the only method he was taking was bank wire.

Thank god, now we have some security in the payment process.
post #2352 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heywood1969 View Post

What is your current rig that you are running, or is that your rig in the photos.... What are you powering it with now...

I am using all cabinets that I have built. Nothing special. Some Peavy midtops and the horns (Subs) were built and designed by me. I am just using some lower level crown amps to power them. XLS and XTI series. Trying to lighten up my amp rack and maximize power, and level up on the sound as well. I do not own any of those M88's yet, those are just pictures of what they look like.
post #2353 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDYSoundDesigns View Post

Thank god, now we have some security in the payment process.

True but I've yet to hear about anyone not getting what they ordered. it does make life much easier though, WU and wire transfers are a pain in the butt.
post #2354 of 4397
I will say they (Johnson Tang) is quick to respond to any questions about their products.
post #2355 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I'm also running 8 x 18s with my 14k clone. I'm definitely not power limited and the amp is just coasting along. After hard demo sessions the case is literally still cold to the touch.

I don't understand how you guys can be doing this and not be power limited.
I've attempted powering only two 21's in dual 4-ohm (2100watts stereo or bridged mono 8-ohm 4200watts) with the 10kQ, they barely reach half excursion at 16hz before the limiter engages (150v or 300v); and even less excursion with music program material.
8800watts is only 1100watts when divided by 8. So I had double that going to each sub.
Based on that, I'd need one 14k for every pair of 21's to reach xmech (4400watts stereo), for the two 7 cubic sealed boxes.
I also tried 2100watts on my LMS-18 and got similar results for music program material, but sinewaves it seemed to have enough (only because of the crazy-huge motor force).
So I just don't understand how you can do it and not be limited, unless your running an IB or my amp is somehow only outputing half of what it should be doing (china clone QC)...
post #2356 of 4397
Wiring to get 95 DB efficiency per 4 drivers helps a lot.
post #2357 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I don't understand how you guys can be doing this and not be power limited.
I've attempted powering only two 21's in dual 4-ohm (2100watts stereo or bridged mono 8-ohm 4200watts) with the 10kQ, they barely reach half excursion at 16hz before the limiter engages (150v or 300v); and even less excursion with music program material.
8800watts is only 1100watts when divided by 8. So I had double that going to each sub.
Based on that, I'd need one 14k for every pair of 21's to reach xmech (4400watts stereo), for the two 7 cubic sealed boxes.
I also tried 2100watts on my LMS-18 and got similar results for music program material, but sinewaves it seemed to have enough (only because of the crazy-huge motor force).
So I just don't understand how you can do it and not be limited, unless your running an IB or my amp is somehow only outputing half of what it should be doing (china clone QC)...

Of course they are power limited.
post #2358 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I don't understand how you guys can be doing this and not be power limited.
I've attempted powering only two 21's in dual 4-ohm (2100watts stereo or bridged mono 8-ohm 4200watts) with the 10kQ, they barely reach half excursion at 16hz before the limiter engages (150v or 300v); and even less excursion with music program material.
8800watts is only 1100watts when divided by 8. So I had double that going to each sub.
Based on that, I'd need one 14k for every pair of 21's to reach xmech (4400watts stereo), for the two 7 cubic sealed boxes.
I also tried 2100watts on my LMS-18 and got similar results for music program material, but sinewaves it seemed to have enough (only because of the crazy-huge motor force).
So I just don't understand how you can do it and not be limited, unless your running an IB or my amp is somehow only outputing half of what it should be doing (china clone QC)...

So you're running 4200 watts to each driver, each driver in 7 cubes each, right? I'm guessing these are FTW-21s? With that setup you should be passing the 34mm xmax at 30hz according to WinISD. Something can't be right. That is a $## ton of power for a driver rated (thermally or mechanically) to handle 1200W.

Yes, having multiple drivers to increase sensitivity certainly helps. Going from one driver to four gives me +6DB sensitivity which means 6DB more output with the same input power. For reference, that would take 4x the same input power for the same output. I'm running 1100 watts per driver which is plenty considering they are rated at 900 each. Yes, they will take a few hundred more watts each without a problem but at that point we're talking less than a decibel difference. I don't see my situation improving by a substantial margin by feeding them more power.

P.S. - Someone correct me if I've jacked up my numbers above please. smile.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 1/2/13 at 1:56pm
post #2359 of 4397
The FTW 21 and Mal-x 21's can easily handle the power. I run the exact same setup as BassThatHz (though he's running the mal-x 21's and I have 2 running as well). I have 6.5 CF boxes and neither sub will reach xmax till 9hz at full clone power (which will never happen) Something is wrong with your numbers Gorilla.
post #2360 of 4397
Gorilla, 4200w is for the pair, it's 2100w each (burst power).
I'll try again with my SDX-15 and see if the power can bottom that guy out, they are rated for only like 1000w RMS.

In non-bridged mode I get 110volts at VPL (orange light) with no load according to my volt meter.
When I hook up my system in the new theater room, I'll measure it when it's playing at 4-ohm non-bridged and 8-ohm bridged and see what I get with that load.

If they are "true" clones and assuming the real-deal meets its specs, we should get...
For the 10kQ: 91v and 183v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 150v (and ~300v)
For the 14k: 132v and 265v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 195v (and ~390v).

What voltage do you guys measure under load at 4 or 8 ohms with your meters?
post #2361 of 4397
Here is what the iTech 8000 does with the pair of 21's in stereo 1-ohm at the -10db lights with heavy bass music program. The coils get fairly warm and smelly after 4 minutes of that much excursion.
(I think the one sub has a loose spider, I need to put more glue on it.)

My 10kQ doesn't produce this much excursion @ 4 or 8 ohm, so I know it's not the subs.
I would hope that a 14k would match the iTech or best it?

post #2362 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Gorilla, 4200w is for the pair, it's 2100w each (burst power).
I'll try again with my SDX-15 and see if the power can bottom that guy out, they are rated for only like 1000w RMS.
In non-bridged mode I get 110volts at VPL (orange light) with no load according to my volt meter.
When I hook up my system in the new theater room, I'll measure it when it's playing at 4-ohm non-bridged and 8-ohm bridged and see what I get with that load.
If they are "true" clones and assuming the real-deal meets its specs, we should get...
For the 10kQ: 91v and 183v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 150v (and ~300v)
For the 14k: 132v and 265v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 195v (and ~390v).
What voltage do you guys measure under load at 4 or 8 ohms with your meters?

Ah, well cutting the power in half sure makes a difference! With 2100w each you're not approaching excursion limits until 6hz.

What meter are you using? I unfortunately just have a couple of junk Craftsman meters without true RMS readings. I'm curious - when you see the orange lights will the amp actually start limiting voltage? Or does it continue to increase with gain/volume?

Also - what voltages are you seeing with the itech?

Maybe I will pick a good meter up soon and take some measurements of my own. Is anyone on here still doing amp testing? Perhaps we could send one of each model off for some proper readings. I'd sure be curious to see what they're capable of.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 1/3/13 at 4:50am
post #2363 of 4397
Keep in mind that even True RMS meters aren't rated for accuracy at very low frequencies. Even the better meters are rated like 45-10,000Hz within .2% (or similar). How far off they are at 15Hz is anyone's guess. You really need an oscilloscope to accurately measure AC voltage at low frequencies.
post #2364 of 4397
Based on this very detailed review I found it looks like a real FP14000 puts out about 1650W "long term" into 4 ohms with both channels driven (in the frequency range of subs). In contrast, "short term" power is between 3000W and 3750W into 4 ohms depending on the frequency (in the frequency range of subs).

Considering that the Sanway may not be as powerful as the real deal LG it's not that hard to see why it might not have the power some of you are expecting. Also, keep in mind that the "long term" test posted on that forum is still short of a sustained sine wave test.

edit: typo
Edited by Stereodude - 1/3/13 at 8:56am
post #2365 of 4397
It has plenty of power for me! I can blow up 12 drivers before I clip. I have reached insane spl's at the LP so I am not sure what people are looking for. I don't know of any driver that can handle the full power but using many drivers you may need more than one amp? You are not going to find this much power for the money. I was flat to 7 hz with all my sealed systems and I used the Ep-2500's(4 of them), 4 dayton 1000 watt amps, 4 ashly amps, one 10Q and one 14K. The bass experience with clones is a whole different level with the same response as the others. I used the EP-2500's, 4000's, ashly's, daytons, and clone 10Q on my 4 CHT 18.2's which have 8 18 inch drivers in a sealed system and the clone driving them was a much better experience for some reason.
post #2366 of 4397
I used a junk RadioShack meter too; I'm assuming it does p-p rather than RMS.
I assumed that it is best designed for measuring 60hz AC line voltage. So I played a 60hz sinewave with the amp.
My system is in a million pieces right now, so I can't take any new measurements. (But I will when I get a chance to.)

Curious to know what voltages you guys are getting with various clones at various ohm's?
post #2367 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I used a junk RadioShack meter too; I'm assuming it does p-p rather than RMS.
I assumed that it is best designed for measuring 60hz AC line voltage. So I played a 60hz sinewave with the amp.
If you used it at 60Hz it should be equivalent to an RMS reading. The meter isn't "true RMS", but it's configured to give the RMS equivalent (at 60Hz). You can confirm this by measuring the voltage in your wall outlet (carefully). If you get ~120Vac then you know it measures RMS. If you get 300+ volts then it's measuring Vpp.
post #2368 of 4397
I guess it is (approximated) RMS then.
post #2369 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Gorilla, 4200w is for the pair, it's 2100w each (burst power).
I'll try again with my SDX-15 and see if the power can bottom that guy out, they are rated for only like 1000w RMS.
In non-bridged mode I get 110volts at VPL (orange light) with no load according to my volt meter.
When I hook up my system in the new theater room, I'll measure it when it's playing at 4-ohm non-bridged and 8-ohm bridged and see what I get with that load.
If they are "true" clones and assuming the real-deal meets its specs, we should get...
For the 10kQ: 91v and 183v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 150v (and ~300v)
For the 14k: 132v and 265v (burst power) at 4-ohms per channel and 8-ohms bridged. The whitepaper says the limiter is 195v (and ~390v).
What voltage do you guys measure under load at 4 or 8 ohms with your meters?


How does your supply hold up under this testing?
post #2370 of 4397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Keep in mind that even True RMS meters aren't rated for accuracy at very low frequencies. Even the better meters are rated like 45-10,000Hz within .2% (or similar). How far off they are at 15Hz is anyone's guess. You really need an oscilloscope to accurately measure AC voltage at low frequencies.

True - forgot about that!! Good point. Maybe someday I'll pick some sort of digital 'scope once I learn more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Based on this very detailed review I found it looks like a real FP14000 puts out about 1650W "long term" into 4 ohms with both channels driven (in the frequency range of subs). In contrast, "short term" power is between 3000W and 3750W into 4 ohms depending on the frequency (in the frequency range of subs).
Considering that the Sanway may not be as powerful as the real deal LG it's not that hard to see why it might not have the power some of you are expecting. Also, keep in mind that the "long term" test posted on that forum is still short of a sustained sine wave test.
edit: typo

That's interesting. Funny enough I know the EP4000 was bench tested pretty rigorously to provide ~1900 W into 4 ohms bridged. In my own experience, I can say with certainty each channel of my clone in 4 ohm stereo is FAR stronger than the EP4000 in bridged mode. I can probably pull down some rough SPL measurements with my omnimic at some point since I still have both amps. I have yet to see clip lights on the Sanway other than the first "orange" VPL light on mine.

I'd also like to do some comparisons side by side with my Crown XLS5000 in the same mode shortly too. It would be cool to have someone local come by for an afternoon for some help with some documented testing between these amps.

Some good news - I'm not feeling like I need an amp upgrade at this time, which is all I can really ask for. biggrin.gif
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