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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 85

post #2521 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezmond View Post

Great , now they probably will stop accepting paypal as payment. A dispute for fans ? WTf

they promised me sunon fans, it did not come with sunon fans

i waited 1 month for him to ship some new fans out, i only wanted a partial refund so that i could replace the fans, these are even noisier then the fans from the sanways i got over 1 year ago, and this is the reason why paypal works.

fyi, i am quite positive that johnson knew that he screwed up somewhere, he kept insisting that the amps were delivered double boxed, which they weren't he didn't even know how sent it out for him, obvious signs that hes middlemaning some of the amps. kept insisting that i got sunon fans which are quieter then the original, which is obviously not true because i took at look at mine and they were some no name brands, and louder then my old ones which were noisy to begin with.
Edited by ufokillerz - 2/12/13 at 8:23am

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2522 of 4387
So he repaid you the whole 88 cents it costs for two new fans?
post #2523 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

So he repaid you the whole 88 cents it costs for two new fans?

if you are fine with 88 cents for 4 sunon fans + shipping, then sure, but there is no way i can get 4 sunon fans for 88 cents after shipping here in the US. He repaid an agreeable amount for 4 replacement fans and some light case damage from bad packaging, the rear of my amp was mangled up. I emailed him every few days for a whole month before taking it to paypal.
post #2524 of 4387
So when I go in to do the fan replacments, do I open the lid or the bottom of the amp to be on the right side for the screws? also, I don't sodder, so would some nice tight twisted wire work for the 400ohm isolators and the fans?
post #2525 of 4387
To do the resistors for the small fans you need to remove the top plate. That is where the screws are for both the small and large fans. However, you need to remove the bottom plate to un-solder the wires for the large fans. You need to buy yourself a soldering iron and solder if you want to do this. Soldering is simple and there is not much of a learning curve.
post #2526 of 4387
On the Berry when I did this, I just clipped the wire and twisted the new fan onto the wires and taped it up. Works fine! Your saying that is a no-go here or just that soldering is a cleaner job?
post #2527 of 4387
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

On the Berry when I did this, I just clipped the wire and twisted the new fan onto the wires and taped it up. Works fine! Your saying that is a no-go here or just that soldering is a cleaner job?

very poor form. at least use a butt splice. just twisting and taping is not only unreliable, but can be dangerous.
post #2528 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

very poor form. at least use a butt splice. just twisting and taping is not only unreliable, but can be dangerous.

I mean if I hadn't been twisting wires for low voltage landscape lighting for 8 years before my career job, I would agree, but I can just about twist a pair of braided wire that you could hang from smile.gif I get your point though, I will use some butt splices as I have some of those laying around. If I were producing amps for sale I wouldn't dream of it, but for some fan mods I didn't think it would be a big deal. I gotcha though, loud and clear biggrin.gif Butt splices are ok in your book though, you aren't just saying that as a "better" alternative?
post #2529 of 4387
Also, how long should I let the amp sit unplugged before I get in there to make the change? To let everything discharge and whatnot?
post #2530 of 4387
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Also, how long should I let the amp sit unplugged before I get in there to make the change? To let everything discharge and whatnot?

Your twist joins are probably fine, but if they start loosening up and contact isn't perfect it may end up causing other issues with the amp. butt splices on tiny wire like that isn't that great either, solder is the way to go imho. Lots of people just end up doing what they see someone else doing, otherwise i wouldn't have even mentioned it. better safe than sorry for the masses. I saw your work in the other thread you have, looks good.

as for letting the amp sit, I've taken some shocks off it since I'm impatient and performed testing with the amp on. The heatsink in the front right will get you, so watch out for that one. It's not too bad, but you can measure the capacitor voltage with a meter to see how much charge they have. They should discharge within a few minutes.
post #2531 of 4387
Found this thread recently and I'm seriously interested in these amps, We are going to be building ported 21" subs loaded with eighteen sound 21nlw9600 drivers in them. they want 3600 watts each, I was thinking by the time we had 4 of them we could run them all off 1 fp14000 at 2 ohms per side and it would be great. however looking over the thread and hearing people say that there have been tests done at 2 ohms and the protection circuit failed, resulting in a cooked amp. that post was 2 years ago. has anyone had any success with pushing this amp to its full "spec'd" limit?
If not im thinking of running 2 subs per amp at 4 ohm per side with the voltage limiter set accordingly, do you think the voltage limiter would actually be reliable to send no more signal that i told it to? cause im pretty sure 4400 watts would cook a driver rated for 3600 peak.

Thanks


Basscrime
post #2532 of 4387
Yeah I did the same thing 2 years ago. I built several dual 21in tapped horn sub-woofers with b and c 21sw152-4's. I tried to operate 4 drivers in series-parallel at 4ohm bridge (2 ohm stereo) with a Sanway fp14000.... Don't do it , they will fry !!! . Your best bet is to buy one amp per sub-woofer and operate only two 4 ohm transducers in series then bridge amp at 8 ohms or run 1 transducer per channel in stereo( still 1 amp per transducer) . Buy the 220volt versions and wire your amps on L6-20 receptacles with 220volt /20 amp breakers not 125volt / 30 amp(too much current heats up the amplifier and voice coils). Over rate your electrical circuit wire with 8 or 10 gauge THHN instead of 12 gauge , even though you think it may not be required. Also over rate your speaker wire drop to the sub box itself using 6 or 8 gauge SJ or SOOW because 8800 watts is equal to 265 volts. Depending on how many subs you tend to operate at once, make sure your local power transformer can handle the load (Seriously: otherwise it will prematurely wear out the power supply and capacitors). And finally don't be greedy on setting the input sensitivity. Remember you are trying to wire industrial sub-woofers so don't cut corners. At 8ohms bridge or 4ohms stereo, You may have more inductance which means less SPL than 2ohms but you should reasonably still produce over +140 db depending on your cabinet design. You should potentially be a happy customer If you follow the other posts and save money on R & D.

to answer your last question the sensitivity settings is the most reliable way to control the output of the amp. Regardless of where you set the VPL circuit it is better if you dont even make it to the limiting.... In all they operate quite different than a traditional toridal amp as you cant ignore warning signals ...... cheers!!!!
post #2533 of 4387
We mainly throw outdoor bush partys/ rave events mainly so i will be running the fp14000 off of a generator, if i were to order the 220v model i would have to dedicate one of our gennys to 240v usage, it would be possible but a pain, would there be that much of a difference between the 120v at 30 amps vs the 220v at 20 amps? would i be giving my subs a longer life span by running them on an amp with a 220 volt line? i will be running one sub off each side of the amp,use 8-10 guage speaker wire, should be fine for 4400w and not pushing the amp fully cause if it does produce a full 4400 watts im pretty sure that it would kill a 21 nlw9600 which can only handle 3600.
our generators are 7200w continuous/9000 peak, they have a 20 amp line and a 30 amp line at 120v. i would dedicate the 30 amp line to the fp14000. would this be ok?
post #2534 of 4387
You will need a bigger generator for starters..
post #2535 of 4387
ill need a bigger generator just to power one of these amps?
post #2536 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by basscrime View Post

ill need a bigger generator just to power one of these amps?
I would also HIGHLY consider the quality of the generators. How stable is the output under varying loads?

A normal generator is fine for running things that present a constant load-drills-lights etc. But an amplifier is constantly changing-and the genertor may not like that and may have some wild voltage swings.

In many cases you can kiss goodby the gear that is hooked to it. But as usual-it depends. Both on how stable the generator is and how tolerant the gear is. So no-there is no simple answer.

If you must use a generator-either get a "quiet" or 'entertainment" type generator OR a VERY LARGE one-so that your load is no where near the max capability-so that it "loafs" along.
post #2537 of 4387
Weve been running our gear off generators for a fiew years now and we have yet to loose a peace of gear to unstable power, on our champion 7200w continuos we usially run a n ep2500, ep4000, and an inuke 6000dsp, plus lights, 2 computers, decks, mixers etc, the volt metre sais 250 at full charge and once our sysstem is At full swing I've never seen it drop below 236.
post #2538 of 4387
Is it possible to run the 14k amp on a non dedicated circuit? Especially if not pushing it that hard.
post #2539 of 4387
Remember amplifiers are not constant draw devices and consider crest factor . Often it is the initial in-rush at power-up that causes issues - mandating soft and staggered power -up.
post #2540 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by basscrime View Post

would i be giving my subs a longer life span by running them on an amp with a 220 volt line?

In this general sense your speakers don't care about the supply voltage to the amp.
post #2541 of 4387
Thats what I figured, I don't know where alignment sound hot that info from. I would think I could run the fp14k off a 30 amp120v breaker since ill never be pushing the amp past 4 ohm stereo and i don't ever want to send more than 3600w to each driver, if in did they probly wouldn't live long.
post #2542 of 4387
I always turn our amp on one at a time so as not to put a huge burst on the genny.
post #2543 of 4387
Mine powers up fine on a 15amp breaker.
But be careful, anything past 50% power and poof, flames; because pulling 30amps through a 15amp line will burn your house down!

As for that genny, it "should be" fine, just take it easy until you get to know the combination of the two better (voltage stability / heat etc etc etc).

The FP14K outputs about 1600watts RMS continuous (real-world 24/7 watts), with peaks to 4400. Per channel.
Which is more than most drivers can tolerate, regardless of what their glossy whitepaper tells you.
Also...Which is more power than most other amplifiers can achieve, regardless of what their glossy whitepaper tells you.

Many people stated that they have used these amps on 20amp circuits, and haven't popped them.
I haven't had the chance to push mine beyond 15amps just yet, so I can't personally confirm or deny that.

All of which I've mentioned multiple times already (see page 9000 for more details wink.gif )
post #2544 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Mine powers up fine on a 15amp breaker.
But be careful, anything past 50% power and poof, flames; because pulling 30amps through a 15amp line will burn your house down!

As for that genny, it "should be" fine, just take it easy until you get to know the combination of the two better (voltage stability / heat etc etc etc).

The FP14K outputs about 1600watts RMS continuous (real-world 24/7 watts), with peaks to 4400. Per channel.
Which is more than most drivers can tolerate, regardless of what their glossy whitepaper tells you.
Also...Which is more power than most other amplifiers can achieve, regardless of what their glossy whitepaper tells you.

Many people stated that they have used these amps on 20amp circuits, and haven't popped them.
I haven't had the chance to push mine beyond 15amps just yet, so I can't personally confirm or deny that.

All of which I've mentioned multiple times already (see page 9000 for more details wink.gif )
Why would your house burn down?? Wouldnt the breaker just trip??

Personally i've been running my pair of 14k's on thier own dedicated 15amp circuit with ZERO problems. Even while pushing them both well beyond reference levels. YMMV.
post #2545 of 4387
I know 2 different guys running the FP14's off of 15 amp lines and they've also never had any problems. unless maybe if you have a 30amp breaker on a 14 gauge line, your house is not going to star on fire, thats just silly.
post #2546 of 4387
Thread Starter 
I've popped 20a breakers testing my FP14000s. That was with sine wave testing.
post #2547 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Why would your house burn down?? Wouldnt the breaker just trip??

Personally i've been running my pair of 14k's on thier own dedicated 15amp circuit with ZERO problems. Even while pushing them both well beyond reference levels. YMMV.

Weird, cause with my ammeter I measured 15amps of wall-draw on mine at half power.
I will be running mine continuously at just under clipping (basically maximum power), so I'm extrapolating that that will require the full 30.

It "should" trip, protecting the line. Should.

Everyone should contact their local fire-department, I'm actually wondering now how many house-fires have actually been started from 15amp line overloads (assuming those houses were built to code and aren't a horders nest) wink.gif
Edited by BassThatHz - 2/15/13 at 2:21pm
post #2548 of 4387
With a generator of 7200 watts RMS it sounds like you only maybe able to run one fp14000 or 2 max....

Watts = volts x amps. So 7200watts is about 30 amps at 240volts or 60 amps at 120volts. Your generator should have 120/ 240volt service which is a L14-30 or X, Y, W, G (hot,hot, neutral , ground)

If you wire a FP14000 to 240volt then your using 180deg hot, - 180deg hot, and ground only, no neutral. So you must make sure to earth to an 8 foot ground rod next to the generator. If you choose to run a fp14000 at 120volt then the current jumps to a 30 amp circuit "as you already know". More current causes more heat which will obviously cause the amp to run hotter. By creating less heat your amplifier will maintain even more efficiency and hopefully draw less current than spec : which is 220volt (less than)16amp. If you create more heat then you run less efficiently and might draw more current than spec : which is 120volt (more than) 30amp. So if you run up to 2 FP14000's at 120volt then you might draw more than 60amps on the generator; which is higher than RMS ratings, which can lead to voltage sags, which will leads to higher current draw (more amps), which leads to more heat, which can lead system failure eventually. The magic to a low frequency system is headroom which starts at the power level , so you would most likely have to dedicate a generator that small anyway.

There are other D-class amplifiers that are more efficient on power such as Crown I-tech 8000 or MC2 E-90 but I think were all on this thread to save money. Traditionally A/B push-pull and TD class amplifiers require more power but have better sound quality.

I don't think you will fry a 18sound 21nlw9600 by using an fp14000 as long as you are responsible with your preamp gain structure. The whole point anyway is to have enough headroom for the SPL level's without redlining equipment. Another thing that can conserve wasted power draw is to high-pass your frequency response to the (fs) of the transducer. In your case the 21nlw9600 has a 29 (fs) with a high Bl of 43 which means it will reproduce an efficient response down to 29hz without excess power and excursion. Loaded into a good cabinet design, it can resonate lower than 29hz without operating the FP14000 below that frequency so you can crossover the FP14000 close to 30hz, no need to waste energy on 6hz - 30hz (as capable to spec). this means you would potentially draw less current. Hope this helps....
Edited by alignment sound - 2/16/13 at 10:02am
post #2549 of 4387
Quote:
Originally Posted by basscrime View Post

That's what I figured, I don't know where alignment sound hot that info from. I would think I could run the fp14k off a 30 amp120v breaker since ill never be pushing the amp past 4 ohm stereo and i don't ever want to send more than 3600w to each driver, if in did they probly wouldn't live long.

Yeah, my only interest in replying is to help you out. It seems you keep focusing on the health of the 21nlw9600 , when the thread is about amps. No the 18sound transducer doesn't care about 110 or 220 volts. It just wants lots of fuel. Keep in mind 3600w is only 3db more than AES. I'm sure there are many owners on this thread that successfully use 120volt Sanway's , but they might not be running 21inch sub-woofers with 5 to 6inch voice coils at raves (extreme conditions). I own 15 Sanway amps because I can't afford Lab Gruppen's and all the 110 versions I have are either on the shelf for repair or have been repaired and converted to operate at 220. For high powered applications the fail ratio in my experience is much higher when relying on current instead of voltage, cheers!!!
Edited by alignment sound - 2/16/13 at 10:10am
post #2550 of 4387
Hey Not,

So I caved and got a soldering iron. It is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WPS18MP-High-Performance-Soldering-Iron/dp/B0013U9R1E

First off, will that work? And secondly, did you use a desoldering pump or anything to clear the contacts, or just heat, remove, replace the wires for the 80mm fans?
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