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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 96

post #2851 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Where else can you get 1500W RMS x2@4@10hz, in 2RU and <50lbs, new for $1200 shipped?

If there was an American or Canadian company that built such things, I would buy that instead, if for no other reason than for a warranty tongue.gif

Who wants to buy an amp that costs 5 times more than the subwoofers it is powering, when you could have double the number of subs-and-amps for the same price? redface.gif

Maybe Kesha can afford to use and maintain 100 real Gruppen's, but we cannot; and that's where their business is made. They could care less about us DIY'ers, they would go broke giving us the time of day. Kesha doesn't have 100 real one same as you don't have 100 clones. Any company will talk to you if you have a legitimate issue and channel your issue it to the right dept.

If Gruppen and Crown etc really wanted at our Business (which they easily could), they would start making and selling amps to the masses at Best-Buy locations and drop the price down to mud-feeder levels. (like Yamaha, Sony, HK etc)


I asked Crown once how much it would cost to fix my iTech if it broke, they said about $800. I could buy a new clone for nearly that.
Generic question as no specific problem = generic price quote.



Crown
Minimum Guaranteed Power per channel, channels driven
2-ohm Dual 4-ohm Dual MAP
XTi 1002 700W 500W $499
XTi 2002 1000W 800W $699
XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
3 year warranty

Ashly MAP
KLR-2000 2-Channel, 1000W @ 2 Ohm / 600W @ 4 Ohm $599
KLR-3200 2-Channel, 1600W @ 2 Ohm / 1100W @ 4 Ohm $799
KLR-4000 2-Channel, 2000W @ 2 Ohm / 1400W @ 4 Ohm $1200
5 year warranty

QSC 8 ohms 4 ohms MAP
PLX3102 600 1000 $1199
PLX3602 775 1250 $1399
3+3 year warranty

even
Peavey MAP
CS 4080 2040w per ch @ 4 ohms 1250w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,299.99
CS 4000 1350w per ch @ 4 ohms 800w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,049.99
PV 3800 1300w per ch @ 4 ohms 775w per ch @ 8 ohms $829.99
2+3 year warranty

To name a few with warranty and qualified service centers here in the states.

There are options in that price range.

Doesn't matter to me what you buy, just saying makes more sense to me to buy from someone that offers a little piece of mind and the ability to back up their product.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2852 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Those do not have the same output capabilities or LF extension. We know there are alternatives, if you have something to contribute about the LG clones, by all means do. Your amps of choice are not really relevant to this thread, and at this point, it's just beating a dead horse.
post #2853 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Those do not have the same output capabilities or LF extension. We know there are alternatives, if you have something to contribute about the LG clones, by all means do. Your amps of choice are not really relevant to this thread, and at this point, it's just beating a dead horse.

And if you believe the clones do this whole thread is a dead horse.

Just responding to what was already posted.
post #2854 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

And if you believe the clones do this whole thread is a dead horse.

Just responding to what was already posted.

They do. It you didn't join last month and make 6 posts out of nowhere to this thread, and instead actually read it, you'd see that these have been measured.

Oddly enough, you sound like you have an anti-chinese agenda, as someone whose business is personally being affected by these clones.

Another wonderful little thing I've come to notice about anti-chinese posters in various forums of all industry... they never actually own or have tried the items they complain about, nor test them. They just sit there and spew BS. Unless you want to contribute with some actual measurements of the devices you bash, I can sit here and make assumptions all day long about you too.
post #2855 of 4389
I had a pretty funny argument with Ivan Beaver about these clones. He poo pooed them but of course had never tried one. Just continued to bash them etc. I just laughed. It was on that pro audio site but I can't remember the name of.
post #2856 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Generic question as no specific problem = generic price quote.



Crown
Minimum Guaranteed Power per channel, channels driven
2-ohm Dual 4-ohm Dual MAP
XTi 1002 700W 500W $499
XTi 2002 1000W 800W $699
XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
3 year warranty

Ashly MAP
KLR-2000 2-Channel, 1000W @ 2 Ohm / 600W @ 4 Ohm $599
KLR-3200 2-Channel, 1600W @ 2 Ohm / 1100W @ 4 Ohm $799
KLR-4000 2-Channel, 2000W @ 2 Ohm / 1400W @ 4 Ohm $1200
5 year warranty

QSC 8 ohms 4 ohms MAP
PLX3102 600 1000 $1199
PLX3602 775 1250 $1399
3+3 year warranty

even
Peavey MAP
CS 4080 2040w per ch @ 4 ohms 1250w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,299.99
CS 4000 1350w per ch @ 4 ohms 800w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,049.99
PV 3800 1300w per ch @ 4 ohms 775w per ch @ 8 ohms $829.99
2+3 year warranty

To name a few with warranty and qualified service centers here in the states.

There are options in that price range.

Doesn't matter to me what you buy, just saying makes more sense to me to buy from someone that offers a little piece of mind and the ability to back up their product.

I owned a Peavey CS 4080hz before the clone, and the clone absolutely blows it away for power. Not even close.
post #2857 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Generic question as no specific problem = generic price quote.



Crown
Minimum Guaranteed Power per channel, channels driven
2-ohm Dual 4-ohm Dual MAP
XTi 1002 700W 500W $499
XTi 2002 1000W 800W $699
XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
3 year warranty

Ashly MAP
KLR-2000 2-Channel, 1000W @ 2 Ohm / 600W @ 4 Ohm $599
KLR-3200 2-Channel, 1600W @ 2 Ohm / 1100W @ 4 Ohm $799
KLR-4000 2-Channel, 2000W @ 2 Ohm / 1400W @ 4 Ohm $1200
5 year warranty

QSC 8 ohms 4 ohms MAP
PLX3102 600 1000 $1199
PLX3602 775 1250 $1399
3+3 year warranty

even
Peavey MAP
CS 4080 2040w per ch @ 4 ohms 1250w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,299.99
CS 4000 1350w per ch @ 4 ohms 800w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,049.99
PV 3800 1300w per ch @ 4 ohms 775w per ch @ 8 ohms $829.99
2+3 year warranty

To name a few with warranty and qualified service centers here in the states.

There are options in that price range.

Doesn't matter to me what you buy, just saying makes more sense to me to buy from someone that offers a little piece of mind and the ability to back up their product.

Eh? How are those the same as the FP14000?
You seem to think the clones underperform drastically as compared to the real FP14000.
That is not true. The clones perform 90% of the real ones if not more and have been proven with measurements all over this board.

Notice bassthathz said: "1500W RMS x2@4@10hz"
This is SUSTAINED power. Not a single one of the amps you listed can sustain that even close. You need to do some more research on amps buddy.
The BEST any of the amps you listed is probably 1/3rd or less of the clone...
post #2858 of 4389
I have owned some good power amps including Ashly, crown, Samson, AB international, etc.. And none of them can compare to my clone or even my FP10q I owned. These clones have serious power and extension.
post #2859 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

And if you believe the clones do this whole thread is a dead horse.

Just responding to what was already posted.

I believe you just found out what's up. Nice try though.
post #2860 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Those do not have the same output capabilities or LF extension. We know there are alternatives, if you have something to contribute about the LG clones, by all means do. Your amps of choice are not really relevant to this thread, and at this point, it's just beating a dead horse.

And if you believe the clones do this whole thread is a dead horse.
Just responding to what was already posted.

I happen to own two XTI 4k's and a clone. The clone wins by miles as far as power goes. It's like four bridged XTI-4k's in one box.

Obviously the clone has no DSP or warranty, but neither of those features will help me POWER my LMS-18's to a proper level wink.gif
post #2861 of 4389
sure, keep recommending the clones and suppress bad remarks about them. i'm sure johnson tang would appreciate the sales.
if mr tang could keep selling them and provide little support for damages then it's a good business sense to keep providing as low support as possible. people would still be buying them.

johnson tang is aware of this thread. he might even be reading it. if bad remarks are discussed openly he'll be forced to provide better support. better as in not sending individual components and expect people to replace the components themselves counts as 'better' to me. 'better' as in sending a complete amp section or power supply section and not individual mosfets.

i'm sure the clones are great. it'll be a bit better than great if people don't have to mess around with 200V DC trying to repair it.

and p/s: not a user of the clones. heard it once, but the screamer fan is far from impressive.
post #2862 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post

sure, keep recommending the clones and suppress bad remarks about them. i'm sure johnson tang would appreciate the sales.
if mr tang could keep selling them and provide little support for damages then it's a good business sense to keep providing as low support as possible. people would still be buying them.

johnson tang is aware of this thread. he might even be reading it. if bad remarks are discussed openly he'll be forced to provide better support. better as in not sending individual components and expect people to replace the components themselves counts as 'better' to me. 'better' as in sending a complete amp section or power supply section and not individual mosfets.

i'm sure the clones are great. it'll be a bit better than great if people don't have to mess around with 200V DC trying to repair it.

and p/s: not a user of the clones. heard it once, but the screamer fan is far from impressive.

You do realize, this is the DIY forum, right?

Nobody is hiding anything bad about this. Even the first post states it's a gamble. Nobody who posts actual information or an actual problem is jumped on, however, someone who joins the forum to post rubbish here, will be.
post #2863 of 4389
I have no doubt, the clone performs when it works right, That's why I bought it to begin with. I've never experienced the clone at full power yet. but I borrowed a crown CE4000 and it sounds awesome. because my clone has has had issues, i've never been able to run it at full power. but the CE4000 bridged, I finally got a taste of what the LMS ultra can do. And it's impressive to say the least.

However, since I emailed them about the power supply letting out the magic smoke, they haven't replied to me yet. That was Wednesday night. This was after 3 weeks of troubleshooting. I have nothing bad to say as of yet, since they have been helping me troubleshoot what may have been the problem. I just hope I can get this clone to operate anywhere near the same levels of this Crown CE4000.
post #2864 of 4389
Thread Starter 
So CVR just messaged me. They were not happy with being listed how they were in the original post. Originally, when I contacted them, they sent me schematics from Sanway. It looks like they've changed their offerings slightly since then, or at least relabeled things. Either way, they were unwilling to provide any more information on the amplifiers. They remain listed as they are until someone who can speak more than broken English and possibly provide some actual information on their amps would like to discuss this.

tongue.gif
post #2865 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Generic question as no specific problem = generic price quote.



Crown
Minimum Guaranteed Power per channel, channels driven
2-ohm Dual 4-ohm Dual MAP
XTi 1002 700W 500W $499
XTi 2002 1000W 800W $699
XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
3 year warranty

Ashly MAP
KLR-2000 2-Channel, 1000W @ 2 Ohm / 600W @ 4 Ohm $599
KLR-3200 2-Channel, 1600W @ 2 Ohm / 1100W @ 4 Ohm $799
KLR-4000 2-Channel, 2000W @ 2 Ohm / 1400W @ 4 Ohm $1200
5 year warranty

QSC 8 ohms 4 ohms MAP
PLX3102 600 1000 $1199
PLX3602 775 1250 $1399
3+3 year warranty

even
Peavey MAP
CS 4080 2040w per ch @ 4 ohms 1250w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,299.99
CS 4000 1350w per ch @ 4 ohms 800w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,049.99
PV 3800 1300w per ch @ 4 ohms 775w per ch @ 8 ohms $829.99
2+3 year warranty

To name a few with warranty and qualified service centers here in the states.

There are options in that price range.

Doesn't matter to me what you buy, just saying makes more sense to me to buy from someone that offers a little piece of mind and the ability to back up their product.

Why would anyone buy the wrong tool for the job just because it has a better warranty? (It's a rhetorical question)

Home theater content to the SW output comprises complex signals that span 5 octaves to below 3 Hz at levels that call for a capacitance reservoir that's 3 times what even the clones house.

How do you make an amplifier "bullet proof" in that environment? Well, to the amplifier manufacturers you listed the answer is simple; just filter the content out and include "protection" devices that stop the amplifier from ever having to playback what's input.

That's certainly a choice you are free to make.

IMO, you're in the wrong forum. This ain't no disco.
post #2866 of 4389
From Gisen:

"The price of FP10000Q and FP14000 is the same, which is USD680/piece.

If you order 1 piece, the shipping cost is USD145. If you order 2 pieces, the shipping cost is USD196. They will be sent by DHL door to door service."

Interesting. Isn't this cheaper than the Sanways right now?
post #2867 of 4389
If it posts like a troll chances are its a troll plain and simple.

There are only a few amps that come close to the clones and they aren't even listed on that crap post he posted.
post #2868 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Why would anyone buy the wrong tool for the job just because it has a better warranty? (It's a rhetorical question)

Home theater content to the SW output comprises complex signals that span 5 octaves to below 3 Hz at levels that call for a capacitance reservoir that's 3 times what even the clones house.

How do you make an amplifier "bullet proof" in that environment? Well, to the amplifier manufacturers you listed the answer is simple; just filter the content out and include "protection" devices that stop the amplifier from ever having to playback what's input.

That's certainly a choice you are free to make.

IMO, you're in the wrong forum. This ain't no disco.

Is it possible to mod amps like the clones to increase capacitance and what kind of impact would it have?
How much capacitance do the clones have anyway? I can't get a clear picture of the caps to read the numbers.

Edit:
Nevermind. See that they are 3300uF/200V x 10.

I wonder if there are higher rated caps that would fit in there.
Edited by yelnatsch517 - 5/4/13 at 1:23pm
post #2869 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Is it possible to mod amps like the clones to increase capacitance and what kind of impact would it have?
How much capacitance do the clones have anyway? I can't get a clear picture of the caps to read the numbers.

Edit:
Nevermind. See that they are 3300uF/200V x 10.

I wonder if there are higher rated caps that would fit in there.
The secret to modern amps is not what it used to be.

In the old days-the size of the capacitors could make a big difference.

On certain models you could buy external capacitor banks. Sometimes the cap banks were the size of the original amp.

Today it is more a matter of how fast you can recharge the capacitors. Yes size matters-but you have to know a lot more about the overall circuit in order to attempt to make any sort of comparison-not just value alone.
post #2870 of 4389
Well once again I join the broken Sanway amp club....I had thought my subs were really quiet for the last week or so. I went into the closet last night and sure enough, the orange VPL light on channel one is on continuously with no output from that channel. This is the cursed amp that I had to replace the power supply board, the amp output board for channel 2 and the input board. I had to pay about 250 dollars for last last two boards because Johnson insisted that they were bad because I was not a skilled technician. We will see how it goes this time. The amp is ran very gently, usually used for watching tv with the kids and one or two movies a week. It is on its own dedicated 240V circuit and in a closet with ample ventilation and original fans. I have never even felt it get slightly warm.
post #2871 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Home theater content to the SW output comprises complex signals that span 5 octaves to below 3 Hz at levels that call for a capacitance reservoir that's 3 times what even the clones house.

Now, I dont know how much capacitance is in these clone amps, but I have some times wondered how much is enough. It is my understanding that the filter capacitors is in there to prevent mains ripple on the output of the amp. That seem to make perfect sense. Also it seems logical to a layman that the capacitance of the caps should increase in relationship to the rated power of the amp. What I don’t understand is how you arrive at "3 times". Why not 5, 2 or 10 times? In other words how do you estimate or calculate the necessary capacitance for a given power level? Also, have you measured the effect of too small capacitors?

Dan
post #2872 of 4389
Thread Starter 
If anyone is interested to see how a company like CVR handles themselves. This is from their cvr-audio skype. I'd avoid these goons.

Quote:
[21:14:13] lisa@cvr-audio: ok,tell me your cel number and address,we will ask our distributor to you with a lawyer. you can tell everybody your mother is beautiful,but the truth is that your mother is ugly,but other people will not tell you or write a article to say your mother is ugly like a dragon
[21:15:00] lisa@cvr-audio: people like you is ugly
post #2873 of 4389
Lmao. Dragons are awesome.
post #2874 of 4389
CVR is Cerwin Vega yes?

Have not liked them since the old days of the stroker subs in maybe 1995. But either way they should know better.
Edited by chrapladm - 5/6/13 at 1:52am
post #2875 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

CVR is Cerwin Vega yes?

Have not liked them since the old days of the stroker subs in maybe 1995. But eiter way they should know better.

No.

http://www.cvr-audio.com/index.html
post #2876 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If anyone is interested to see how a company like CVR handles themselves. This is from their cvr-audio skype. I'd avoid these goons.

LOL, wow that's fail on so many levels. People like that only China look worse than it already does. rolleyes.gif
post #2877 of 4389
Thread Starter 
The best part was I offered to review one of their amps to give it a fair shake, and that's when they really got hostile.
post #2878 of 4389
LOL, all those responses are about what I expected.

"Where else can you get 1500W RMS x2@4@10hz, in 2RU and <50lbs, new for $1200 shipped?"
All of the amps I listed can do the 10 Hz; wattage depends on the model obviously.

"They do. It you didn't join last month and make 6 posts out of nowhere to this thread, and instead actually read it, you'd see that these have been measured."
I have read this thread, doesn't mean I have to believe it. The many problems posted and tech support to be provided by the buyer just seems wrong.
That truly makes this the "DIY" forum.

"This ain't no disco." to use another worn out cliché "this ain’t my first rodeo".

"I believe you just found out what's up. Nice try though." Not

As for the Chinese market, really doesn't matter, you're going to buy what you buy.

When my fake LG gets here I will run it the same way I run my real LG's, I'll take the gamble to hopefully prove myself wrong.
But if it goes up in smoke I would expect Sanway to live up to their "After Service: One year" (taken right from one of Johnson's emails and in their price list)

Also does anyone know the legality's of bringing these things in? Trademark issues? Must have missed those posts.
post #2879 of 4389
I don't think there would be any issues as they are not identical. When they were sending the Lab Gruppen label it was bad though.
post #2880 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

LOL, all those responses are about what I expected.

"Where else can you get 1500W RMS x2@4@10hz, in 2RU and <50lbs, new for $1200 shipped?"
All of the amps I listed can do the 10 Hz; wattage depends on the model obviously.

"They do. It you didn't join last month and make 6 posts out of nowhere to this thread, and instead actually read it, you'd see that these have been measured."
I have read this thread, doesn't mean I have to believe it. The many problems posted and tech support to be provided by the buyer just seems wrong.
That truly makes this the "DIY" forum.

"This ain't no disco." to use another worn out cliché "this ain’t my first rodeo".

"I believe you just found out what's up. Nice try though." Not

As for the Chinese market, really doesn't matter, you're going to buy what you buy.

When my fake LG gets here I will run it the same way I run my real LG's, I'll take the gamble to hopefully prove myself wrong.
But if it goes up in smoke I would expect Sanway to live up to their "After Service: One year" (taken right from one of Johnson's emails and in their price list)

Also does anyone know the legality's of bringing these things in? Trademark issues? Must have missed those posts.

Of course this is a DIY forum. To be specific this is a DIY subforum on a SCIENCE forum. What were you expecting?
If you think fixing amps is about as far as DIY gets, I suggest you take a look at the diyaudio forum where people build there own amps and DACs...

Which LG amp do you have? Can you take some measurements?
How exactly are you going to compare the clones to your real LG?
In what setting are you using your current LG, touring, HT, etc.?

As for the issues on the clones. If you really have read through this forum, the ones with the problems present themselves right away.
It seems that they are all good or all bad. In other words, running the clones "lightly" doesn't reduce the chance that they blow up. You either get one that is DOA or one that is good, right out of the box.
The good clones will hit 90+% of the real clones. They are cheap enough to buy multiples. Even if only 1 out of 4 clones work, they are still a good deal. Do the math.
Edited by yelnatsch517 - 5/6/13 at 3:11pm
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