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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 97

post #2881 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Is it possible to mod amps like the clones to increase capacitance and what kind of impact would it have?
How much capacitance do the clones have anyway? I can't get a clear picture of the caps to read the numbers.

Edit:
Nevermind. See that they are 3300uF/200V x 10.

I wonder if there are higher rated caps that would fit in there.

Yes, it's possible to mod any amp. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post


Now, I dont know how much capacitance is in these clone amps, but I have some times wondered how much is enough. It is my understanding that the filter capacitors is in there to prevent mains ripple on the output of the amp. That seem to make perfect sense. Also it seems logical to a layman that the capacitance of the caps should increase in relationship to the rated power of the amp. What I don’t understand is how you arrive at "3 times". Why not 5, 2 or 10 times? In other words how do you estimate or calculate the necessary capacitance for a given power level? Also, have you measured the effect of too small capacitors?

Dan

Visit DIYAudio and read this thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/216409-power-supply-resevoir-size.html

There's a spreadsheet that calculates minimum cap res for unclipped output and max rate posted by Gootee that's def worth a download and look see. It's a very long thread, but there's lots of great info, formulae, etc. I mention member Gootee so that you can search for the spreadsheet if you aren't interested enough to wade through the entire thread (which I have... twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

LOL, all those responses are about what I expected.

"Where else can you get 1500W RMS x2@4@10hz, in 2RU and <50lbs, new for $1200 shipped?"
All of the amps I listed can do the 10 Hz; wattage depends on the model obviously.

"They do. It you didn't join last month and make 6 posts out of nowhere to this thread, and instead actually read it, you'd see that these have been measured."
I have read this thread, doesn't mean I have to believe it. The many problems posted and tech support to be provided by the buyer just seems wrong.
That truly makes this the "DIY" forum.

"This ain't no disco." to use another worn out cliché "this ain’t my first rodeo".

"I believe you just found out what's up. Nice try though." Not

As for the Chinese market, really doesn't matter, you're going to buy what you buy.

When my fake LG gets here I will run it the same way I run my real LG's, I'll take the gamble to hopefully prove myself wrong.
But if it goes up in smoke I would expect Sanway to live up to their "After Service: One year" (taken right from one of Johnson's emails and in their price list)

Also does anyone know the legality's of bringing these things in? Trademark issues? Must have missed those posts.

The amps you listed are all seriously outgunned by the clones when it comes to playback of LFE-heavy soundtracks into a system that's designed to handle it. They may be fine for your rodeo, but the clones will stomp them for this venue. If you have experience and proof otherwise, please post it. If not, honestly, you just come off as a bag of wind.

The clones violate LG's patent on the case design. No one owns a patent on class TD, and the clones (there are several iterations from China, Malaysia, HK, Thailand, etc.) are just variations on a theme.

I mentioned this before several times in this thread and will repeat it here. Sanway (Johnson Tang) is only one agent of dozens who sell clones, which are based on the 'K' platform. I would not pay $1200 for a clone shipped (don't know where you got that price, if you actually are quoting anyone who paid that much) because you can get them for 1/2 that and from an agent who knows a lot more about the amplifier than Tang does. But, to each his own on that count. Just don't speak for others who know better regarding prices and service and you likely won't get the responses you "expected" (elicited). cool.gif

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2882 of 4389
@ Bosso

Thanks. Not exactly a "quick ´n dirty" guide, but i will have a go at it anyway :-)

Dan
post #2883 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Where else can you get 1500W RMS x2@4@10hz, in 2RU and <50lbs, new for $1200 shipped?

If there was an American or Canadian company that built such things, I would buy that instead, if for no other reason than for a warranty tongue.gif

Who wants to buy an amp that costs 5 times more than the subwoofers it is powering, when you could have double the number of subs-and-amps for the same price? redface.gif

Maybe Kesha can afford to use and maintain 100 real Gruppen's, but we cannot; and that's where their business is made. They could care less about us DIY'ers, they would go broke giving us the time of day.

If Gruppen and Crown etc really wanted at our Business (which they easily could), they would start making and selling amps to the masses at Best-Buy locations and drop the price down to mud-feeder levels. (like Yamaha, Sony, HK etc)


I asked Crown once how much it would cost to fix my iTech if it broke, they said about $800. I could buy a new clone for nearly that.

"I would not pay $1200 for a clone shipped (don't know where you got that price, if you actually are quoting anyone who paid that much)"


That info came from another "bag of wind", I just copied it. (See above)

Also I am not speaking for anyone else, the pricing and service policies I mentioned are absolutely accurate and were posted in direct response to that particular sentence only.

As for how others choose to write their responses, that's up to them. Nothing written here will hurt my feelings.

But like I said, hopefully I will prove myself wrong. If a $700-$800 14,000 can keep up with the real deal great, I could save thousands.

My rodeo can be quite punishing. Amps on full tilt 8-12 hours a day, outdoors in many cases. Not like sitting in a viewing room watching movies with sub sonic's in the sound track. Not to minimize anyone else's situation. wink.gif
post #2884 of 4389
Didn't Heywood already mention these are better suited for indoor than outdoor(his are anyways). He also has the real Lab Gruppens. Mine cost $875 shipped to my door. I would say movies are much easier on the amps than constant high spl music with outdoor events. These clones need to sustain short high spl's for movies. After Heywoods experience I would think you trying one for the same purpose will not be successful.

Bosso,
PM me with that other source, I would love to give anyone business that deserves it.
post #2885 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Didn't Heywood already mention these are better suited for indoor than outdoor(his are anyways). He also has the real Lab Gruppens. Mine cost $875 shipped to my door. I would say movies are much easier on the amps than constant high spl music with outdoor events. These clones need to sustain short high spl's for movies. After Heywoods experience I would think you trying one for the same purpose will not be successful.

Bosso,
PM me with that other source, I would love to give anyone business that deserves it.

Thanks for the tip, I will have to go back and read his experience.
And thanks for someone finally eluding to the fact that all things are not created equal.
post #2886 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

"I would not pay $1200 for a clone shipped (don't know where you got that price, if you actually are quoting anyone who paid that much)"


That info came from another "bag of wind", I just copied it. (See above)

Why are you here?! Stirring the pot I guess.rolleyes.gif
post #2887 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I would say movies are much easier on the amps than constant high spl music with outdoor events. These clones need to sustain short high spl's for movies. After Heywoods experience I would think you trying one for the same purpose will not be successful.

I have to disagree with this. I've played bass for a million years and have seen every amp mentioned in these forums and then some. I've owned a few of them as well. Most choke and/or bite the dust with a +10dB L/T playing WOTW at ref+ and the rest just cut the first 2 octaves out altogether. Music is a cakewalk, length of listening session being largely irrelevant. I have amps I bought in the 90s for live performance that still work just fine, but I would never try to power my subs with them. The clones offer better performance and $/W than all of those mentioned, by a pretty wide margin.
post #2888 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Why are you here?! Stirring the pot I guess.rolleyes.gif

Wow talk about taking things out of context. I'm sure you'll get over it though.tongue.gif

Yes I reread Heywood's post's. Sounds like he's not a happy camper with the fake's.
post #2889 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I have to disagree with this. I've played bass for a million years and have seen every amp mentioned in these forums and then some. I've owned a few of them as well. Most choke and/or bite the dust with a +10dB L/T playing WOTW at ref+ and the rest just cut the first 2 octaves out altogether. Music is a cakewalk, length of listening session being largely irrelevant. I have amps I bought in the 90s for live performance that still work just fine, but I would never try to power my subs with them. The clones offer better performance and $/W than all of those mentioned, by a pretty wide margin.

Oh I know when called for the low frequencies are much harder to do but I happens less often than say constant very loud 40hz stuff blasting for hours? The clones are loafing along during a movie so they have the stuff for when it is needed. Just guessing because I only listen to music at 110 dBs max from the subs and hit much louder for movies. My clones have been much better suited for everything in my room so far and I have tried many amps. Maybe outdoor events are setup differently or something?
post #2890 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Wow talk about taking things out of context. I'm sure you'll get over it though.tongue.gif

Yes I reread Heywood's post's. Sounds like he's not a happy camper with the fake's.

If you are using amps for touring duty, just get a Powersoft amp...
Why bother with Lab clones?
post #2891 of 4389
My amps are going on almost two years old. Outdoor and club use, no issues on the amps.. I own both real and clones also.. But alas everyone's experience will be different.. cool.gif
post #2892 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post

My amps are going on almost two years old. Outdoor and club use, no issues on the amps.. I own both real and clones also.. But alas everyone's experience will be different.. cool.gif

Didn't you offer to repair these at some point?
post #2893 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Didn't you offer to repair these at some point?

No i think that was someone else..
post #2894 of 4389
I am willing to bet that half or more of the failures are probably user error. Either hooking up the speakons wrong or sending below a 2.7 ohm load .
post #2895 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

If you are using amps for touring duty, just get a Powersoft amp...
Why bother with Lab clones?

The Powersoft amps would be nice but tend to be even more pricey than real Labs. At least the K series. If they made the k's with out all the dsp that would be tempting.
Going to do an A - B comparison between a real FP14000 and the sanway, input sensitivity and vpl set identical with the same load. SB850's and again with SB 1000's.
Run em up to concert level's (sometimes as high as 110db A weighted) with live acts playing pop, dance, hard rock, dubstep, bass and drums and everything in between. If it survives, great, not sure if I'd buy more but at least I would know for sure.
I am willing to gamble once just to see for myself.
post #2896 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post

No i think that was someone else..

I think it was a guy with 2 posts who called himself Lg clone king.
post #2897 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

The Powersoft amps would be nice but tend to be even more pricey than real Labs. At least the K series. If they made the k's with out all the dsp that would be tempting.
Going to do an A - B comparison between a real FP14000 and the sanway, input sensitivity and vpl set identical with the same load. SB850's and again with SB 1000's.
Run em up to concert level's (sometimes as high as 110db A weighted) with live acts playing pop, dance, hard rock, dubstep, bass and drums and everything in between. If it survives, great, not sure if I'd buy more but at least I would know for sure.
I am willing to gamble once just to see for myself.

EAW subs? Isn't that too much amp for that sub?
If you crank the clone to max, you'd blow both those subs in a second or are you hooking up multiple subs per channel?
post #2898 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezmond View Post

I am willing to bet that half or more of the failures are probably user error. Either hooking up the speakons wrong or sending below a 2.7 ohm load .
I hope that you are not referring to me, or my experience with the clones to date...
Hooking up ch a clone, speakon directly to yorkville TX-9 directly takes a pretty good idiot to F#@!$ that up. (4 ohm load)
repeat 3 more times, ch b , c ,d... to single sub cabinets - no jumping....

same goes for when I tried it on monitor Mix 1 to a ch - output a speakon out to a passive 15" , 1" monitor - no linking to other wedges, 4 ohm load - repeat 3 more times... b,c,d.

I'm not sold that this clone amp will load of a LIVE INSTRUMENT reproduction at BAR BAND, let alone CONCERT levels. I am using my real labs for this task. I am using the clones (cautiously) currently on bi-amp monitors, which obivously produces an un even loading on ch b and d ( highs), which probably allows the power supply to cope with the load on 15 amps. I have not yet tried the clones on a 30 amp supply (like real labs) so maybe my statement is unfair, but I've also switched the clone to the max voltage capability / allowance and it did not trip the 15 amp breaker before the amp totally hit the vpl limit and distorted and crapped out. yes to do a true comparision, I'd have to set both amps on the same supply, with the same dip switch settings but I'm not getting the warm an fuzzy about the clone right out of the gate when it won't hold a e-kit kick and bass guitar demand (sub duty) at the start of a wedding performance before going into protect !. Stove plug male
to female L14-30
25 ft of 10/4 to motion labs stinger box ( 4 x20 amp breakers), one circuit for JUST the clone 4' of sanway 10 or 12 gauge power cord..... amp died two songs in...
post #2899 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

EAW subs? Isn't that too much amp for that sub?
If you crank the clone to max, you'd blow both those subs in a second or are you hooking up multiple subs per channel?

No, it depends on how much input program signal the amp receives, just because the knob is turned up all the way doesn't mean the amp will immediately put out its max rated output.
Been doing it for years with the real ones, no blown drivers, and yes I have seen the red lights come on. If you do all the math for proper system tuning, crossover settings, limiter settings, time alignment the result is a happy system with lots of dynamic headroom. That's the whole reason for having big arss amps. At least for live situations. smile.gif
post #2900 of 4389
Looks like they have abandoned this thread for another making claim to be better than real Lab Gruppens. Time will tell.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471303/lab-gruppen-fp14000-gets-spanked-by-plate-amp

Just as well, the Lab Gruppen FP and PLM series target market is not HT anyhow.

As for the clones, I am not going to bother after all.

I saw a post earlier, and verified, no UL approval, that’s the deal breaker.

Who is liable when one of them burns their viewing room down or worse?

Besides, I cannot in good conscience blindly send money out of the North American market with a high % chance of getting a product that doesn’t work properly with little to no factory support other than exchanging emails on what to try to get it working.

There is a reason why the major sound companies and major home theatre install companies don’t use or recommend the counterfeits.

Nothing personal fella’s, just my humble opinion, and have fun with your quest for bigger, better equipment.
post #2901 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Looks like they have abandoned this thread for another making claim to be better than real Lab Gruppens. Time will tell.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471303/lab-gruppen-fp14000-gets-spanked-by-plate-amp

Just as well, the Lab Gruppen FP and PLM series target market is not HT anyhow.
As for the clones, I am not going to bother after all.
I saw a post earlier, and verified, no UL approval, that’s the deal breaker.
Who is liable when one of them burns their viewing room down or worse?
Besides, I cannot in good conscience blindly send money out of the North American market with a high % chance of getting a product that doesn’t work properly with little to no factory support other than exchanging emails on what to try to get it working.
There is a reason why the major sound companies and major home theatre install companies don’t use or recommend the counterfeits.
Nothing personal fella’s, just my humble opinion, and have fun with your quest for bigger, better equipment.


Bye troll.. Nobody abandoned this thread. Maybe you missed:

500ms on 500ms off burst test:
post #2902 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Looks like they have abandoned this thread for another making claim to be better than real Lab Gruppens. Time will tell.

There is a reason why the major sound companies and major home theatre install companies don’t use or recommend the counterfeits.

Nothing personal fella’s, just my humble opinion, and have fun with your quest for bigger, better equipment.

That major reason is money and legal liability, not sound quality and DIY purposes. As a business, I'd rather sell you a $5,000 speaker over a $1,000 one that performs the same.

If you don't like these amps, don't post here. You have a valid belief, but you're looking to stir the pot and antagonize people as well. These people also happen to have a lot more knowledge on the particular subject than you do, so you come off as being rather ignorant.
post #2903 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post


As for the clones, I am not going to bother after all.

Promise?
post #2904 of 4389
What would be nice is if someone would import a batch of them, and offer them custom tuned to people. With what the cost to buy, I'm sure the right person could set up a mod shop to increase capacitance, weed out reliability issues, etc, and still have room to profit. If I had the electronics knowledge to do it, I would myself.
post #2905 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

What would be nice is if someone would import a batch of them, and offer them custom tuned to people. With what the cost to buy, I'm sure the right person could set up a mod shop to increase capacitance, weed out reliability issues, etc, and still have room to profit. If I had the electronics knowledge to do it, I would myself.

Unless you have the financial backing and a good lawyer in case a patent/copyright infringement claim were to be sent from LG, that would not be a good idea.
post #2906 of 4389
Good thing Not offered this up long ago, and no one seemed to be interested...^^^^^^^
post #2907 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

Generic question as no specific problem = generic price quote.

Crown
Minimum Guaranteed Power per channel, channels driven
2-ohm Dual 4-ohm Dual MAP
XTi 1002 700W 500W $499
XTi 2002 1000W 800W $699
XTi 4002 1600W 1200W $999
3 year warranty

Ashly MAP
KLR-2000 2-Channel, 1000W @ 2 Ohm / 600W @ 4 Ohm $599
KLR-3200 2-Channel, 1600W @ 2 Ohm / 1100W @ 4 Ohm $799
KLR-4000 2-Channel, 2000W @ 2 Ohm / 1400W @ 4 Ohm $1200
5 year warranty

QSC 8 ohms 4 ohms MAP
PLX3102 600 1000 $1199
PLX3602 775 1250 $1399
3+3 year warranty

even
Peavey MAP
CS 4080 2040w per ch @ 4 ohms 1250w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,299.99
CS 4000 1350w per ch @ 4 ohms 800w per ch @ 8 ohms $1,049.99
PV 3800 1300w per ch @ 4 ohms 775w per ch @ 8 ohms $829.99
2+3 year warranty
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

All of the amps I listed can do the 10 Hz; wattage depends on the model obviously.

They will all output 10hz, but at how MANY watts?
The XTI's aren't stable at 10hz at high power. (Power levels that aren't anywhere near the output of the clone for the price or otherwise.)
Not sure about those other amps.
post #2908 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post

No, it depends on how much input program signal the amp receives, just because the knob is turned up all the way doesn't mean the amp will immediately put out its max rated output.
Been doing it for years with the real ones, no blown drivers, and yes I have seen the red lights come on. If you do all the math for proper system tuning, crossover settings, limiter settings, time alignment the result is a happy system with lots of dynamic headroom. That's the whole reason for having big arss amps. At least for live situations. smile.gif

Maybe this^^^ is why most of the live shows I've been to in the past 10 years sounded like butt wind.

What sort of math tells you when you "see red lights come on" you have "lots of dynamic headroom"? And you've been doing it that way for years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemSpank View Post


As for the clones, I am not going to bother after all.

I saw a post earlier, and verified, no UL approval, that’s the deal breaker.

Who is liable when one of them burns their viewing room down or worse?

Besides, I cannot in good conscience blindly send money out of the North American market with a high % chance of getting a product that doesn’t work properly with little to no factory support other than exchanging emails on what to try to get it working.

There is a reason why the major sound companies and major home theatre install companies don’t use or recommend the counterfeits.

Nothing personal fella’s, just my humble opinion, and have fun with your quest for bigger, better equipment.

Like I said, this isn't a "pro sound" forum. And, you have real Labs, but didn't send your money out of the North American market? Certainly you did, and apparently blindly at that.

Before you leave, could you please post links to some of those "major home theater install companies"? We're always looking for the best out of HT subwoofer systems and any guidance would be appreciated.
post #2909 of 4389
He may have a real Lab, doubt it's the fp14000.
If things were setup properly and the clip lights came on, his subs would have been blown to bits.

I love how amateurs come on this board and argue with professional engineers.
post #2910 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

He may have a real Lab, doubt it's the fp14000.
If things were setup properly and the clip lights came on, his subs would have been blown to bits.

I love how amateurs come on this board and argue with professional engineers.

Excuse me, you don't know me or know what I own or what my profession is. And I am not arguing with anybody, I don't assume that you are a professional engineer, diy ht guy, amateur or just a conceded prick.

I didn’t come here to argue, just to share thoughts on the "clones" as I was interested in them.

A real professional first would not post such a comment and would not put the faith you have in counterfeit products. And know abit more about the limitations of such subs in the live sound setting.

I posted nothing argumentative. (Till now that I was provoked) All my posts are based on easily verifiable facts.

You’re in CA, give Dave Rat @ Rat Sound a call, you know the guy who provided all the sound gear at Coachella in Southern CA and ask what he thinks. He is a professional engineer.

And yes I do have real FP14000's while you've got the fake's.
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