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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 100

post #2971 of 4389
Two comments to this nonsense
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman mars View Post

I really don't seek to defend extremes / the exceptions , I present points to support mainstream / normal situations / normal audio consumers .

First, this diy section of the forum is nowhere near mainstream or normal. Users and their systems here typically and meaningfully push the envelope on sound reproduction, especially full bandwidth LFE. If you want to tell 'normal' audio consumers some of your thoughts, perhaps set up a booth outside of a bestbuy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by madman mars View Post

If we look at our normal frequency graphs, we see very steep / sharp cut -offs below 40 /30 hz and same after 16 khz . So if your system produces 100 db @ 10 or even 20 hz what really happens when the sound material goes back to 80 hz or so?????? the house blows up ?? or wifey or neighbours pack up to move ??.


Normal frequency graphs of what? We aren't forcing lower than 20Hz material out of anything - just reproducing it when it exists. When a song or film calls for 80Hz at 0dbFS we reproduce it at the called for level, just the same as anyone else. Just because our systems can do 100db (and much more) @ 10Hz it doesn't mean we are boosting the levels over every range.

If a film has a soundtrack that rolls off at 30Hz we hear it that way. Even though we could possibly boost the low end back up through eq, and our systems could handle it, there is no one here who would do it (KW maybe being an exception, RIP). We are able to reproduce the soundtrack and music just as the engineers, sound directors, mixers, etc. intended - full bandwidth or not.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2972 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubalis2 View Post

Even though we could possibly boost the low end back up through eq, and our systems could handle it, there is no one here who would do it (KW maybe being an exception, RIP)..
Don't let Beast or Popalock see this. biggrin.gif
post #2973 of 4389
Ya, who's this "no one" he speaks of.... on this forum I think it would be the opposite.
post #2974 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

200+db? Where do you get this crap?
Code:
Knowing that the sound source level was fairly low (it was only 226 dB (decibels) @ 3 kHz which is low compared to an operational sonar)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar

I can't find specifically the levels Navy sonar operates at most likely due to being classified, but you get the gist...

According to your link, 130dB @ 10Hz is insufficient to rupture eardrums so what damage exactly is being caused to our ears and hearing?
Maybe someone with medical knowledge can chime in?
Edited by yelnatsch517 - 5/19/13 at 11:15am
post #2975 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Ya, who's this "no one" he speaks of.... on this forum I think it would be the opposite.

I meant bringing out ULF from sources that have all but nuetered it... like a 30db+ house curve wink.gif

I'm just as quick to boost the lowest octave, but not that much
post #2976 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubalis2 View Post

I meant bringing out ULF from sources that have all but nuetered it... like a 30db+ house curve wink.gif

I'm just as quick to boost the lowest octave, but not that much

Like I said don't let Popalock and Beast see this. I think they have their bottom end boosted by more than 30db's. They are certified ULFtard's! biggrin.gif
post #2977 of 4389
In conclusion, every piece of audio ( for hearing ) equipment I know in the market supports reproduction and management of sound within the normal 20 - 20 k range tapering off steeply at both extremes; EQs. Drive Racks, Amplifiers, Speakers. If you consciously seek to venture beyond and there about 10hz and 30 k unknowns and call that normal then either excuse me or yourself .
post #2978 of 4389
Well the majority here on this thread use these amps for HT and that means frequency range of 3-120 hz for the Bass. We are a group of people that want everything on the disc to not be missed if it is there. We sit back and enjoy knowing we are getting what was intended and never say I wonder or what if? We just know that whatever we hear was supposed to be that way. The thread starter is using the best drivers for HT and discovered these amps as a great compliment. I don't think he cares what others think for other uses.
post #2979 of 4389
Really don't understand that argument. It's like going on a site for performance tweakers and saying the majority of drivers never drive over 85 mph. True, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who do and want to squeeze ever bit out of their vehicles. You are certainly not the first to make that argument. we have one poster in particular who is on a mission to pooh-pooh any talk of ulf playback. He also has never heard it.
post #2980 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman mars View Post

In conclusion, every piece of audio ( for hearing ) equipment I know in the market supports reproduction and management of sound within the normal 20 - 20 k range tapering off steeply at both extremes; EQs. Drive Racks, Amplifiers, Speakers. If you consciously seek to venture beyond and there about 10hz and 30 k unknowns and call that normal then either excuse me or yourself .

Going lower than 20Hz is not the same as going above 20kHz. It is completely different and I can understand your logic. The fact is, content under 20Hz contribute to the movie experience while content above 20kHz do not.
This is not subjective opinion. It is pure fact, whether you want to believe it or not. You are thinking in terms of audio only. The problem with that is, in movies, there is more in the audio spectrum than is merely meant to be heard. Content under 20Hz was never meant to be heard. It was meant to be felt.
Have you ever heard of bass shakers? That is the poor man's version trying to reproduce sub 20Hz content.

The goal of many people in this forum is to reproduce the tactile feel of content in movies and in some music.
Just like in live events, a drum kick can be felt in your chest, explosions and gunshots are exactly the same way, except they occur at frequencies below 20Hz.
They are meant to be felt, not heard.

What you need to remember is SPL is SOUND PRESSURE LEVEL. That is PRESSURE level created by sound. That means 10Hz can be felt by your body, but not heard.
Arguing that content under 20Hz is unnecessary is like arguing watching movies or listening to music using anything other than headphones or earphones is unnecessary because any content that exists is only meant for the ears.
There is a reason why watching a concert live is different from listening the same thing through headphones.

I understand your passion for pro audio, but please try to experience other things in life.
Go to the shooting range and shoot some guns. Go feel a building being demolished with explosives. Then you'll understand that the audible spectrum is only 50% of the experience.
Just like they say that 70% of communication is unspoken. Don't rely on your ears so much. There is much more to the world than just what you hear.
post #2981 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman mars View Post

I've known of specialized THX amps constructed as air cooled for low noise and relatively smaller transformer maybe for ease of weight . To mention one, Carver TFM 55 , the TFM series , The engineering made consideration for the short burst of ultra low sound material , ( short intermittent loads ). Live bands and DJ systems put out low material for sustainable periods, so the pro amps , which is self explanatory, has to be engineered way superior. In Fact I used the TFM 55 for a small gig and the amp went into thermal protection . So maybe those clones should be labelled thx .
PS. What 3 Hz are you talking about , after 20 hz its no longer audible . As I listen to the spectrum it is just crap below 20 hz

Not really on topic, but I just want to address the bold part above, because it's conventional wisdom that is patently false. Fletcher & Munson only measured down to 20hz when originally establishing their famous equal-loudness contours 80 years ago. There is no brick wall filter in our ears that stops frequencies below 20hz from being heard (I'm talking about hearing, not about feeling through other physical structures that sense pressure).

Since 1933, loads of research data has proven that average humans (not merely exceptional cases) hear quite well below 20hz. To educate yourself, spend a little time reading (not merely skimming) these links, in which I explain how & why this is the case. Even better, download (if you have access) the actual cited studies themselves and read the entire methodology on how they differentiated hearing from feeling, the various methods used to produce these ULF, and the conclusions. It all started here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1379756/david-vs-goliath-supercube-2000-vs-fv12/90#post_21365081

This second link deals with more than 20 of the peer-reviewed research studies that have tested human hearing below 20hz, and aggregates their data into easy-to-read charts

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1379756/david-vs-goliath-supercube-2000-vs-fv12/90#post_21369858

The third and final link (sorry, it was an exhaustive argument) describes the difference between science and anecdotal/conjectural accounts, plus how and why conventional wisdom can be (or is, in this case) wrong

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1379756/david-vs-goliath-supercube-2000-vs-fv12/210#post_21400121

But, don't just take the research for granted - hear it for yourself. Get a tone generator on a known capable sealed system, dial up 15hz while also monitoring distortion. Almost every adult human on the planet will be able to hear (not feel) 15hz at playback levels between 80-90dB, and not the fundamentals at 30hz or 60hz. Try it out for yourself (this is fairly easy to do in REW while monitoring distortion). If you don't think you're actually hearing it, try this: there's an audible progression of the tone going markedly lower if you start at 20hz and reduce the frequency in 1hz increments - you'll be able to hear each step clearly differentiated. Do the same with 10hz and at 105-110dB levels (hard for all but the most robust of systems).
post #2982 of 4389
I am not going to start talking about off topic discussions and talk about my history on board submarines but some of these posters are doing WHAT for this thread. rolleyes.gif Anyways I AM wondering if the other faulty amps have been fixed yet?

Just curious how some of the others, that have not been so fortunate, fixed their amps or not.
post #2983 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I am not going to start talking about off topic discussions and talk about my history on board submarines but some of these posters are doing WHAT for this thread. rolleyes.gif Anyways I AM wondering if the other faulty amps have been fixed yet?

Just curious how some of the others, that have not been so fortunate, fixed their amps or not.

I am awaiting a new amp board for my amps' second wave of failures. Since I have to buy the amp board, I told Johnso to throw in some extra components in hopes that I can repair my bad board for a spare
post #2984 of 4389
After buying these parts and shipping etc... How much more would it cost to send it back for warranty repair by them? Just curious as even these parts/boards may not fix it so the cost of actually using the warranty may be pricey after shipping but worth it in long run.
post #2985 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

After buying these parts and shipping etc... How much more would it cost to send it back for warranty repair by them? Just curious as even these parts/boards may not fix it so the cost of actually using the warranty may be pricey after shipping but worth it in long run.

I was wondering the same thing. Since it is under warranty, wouldn't it make more sense to just ship it back for $150 to get it fixed and be done with this?
If they were smart, they'd probably strip the one you sent back to be reused for parts and send you a new one. That would be the most economical way, IMHO.
post #2986 of 4389
It was going to cost close to 400 to ship back when I looked into it
post #2987 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Code:
Knowing that the sound source level was fairly low (it was only 226 dB (decibels) @ 3 kHz which is low compared to an operational sonar)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar

I can't find specifically the levels Navy sonar operates at most likely due to being classified, but you get the gist...

According to your link, 130dB @ 10Hz is insufficient to rupture eardrums so what damage exactly is being caused to our ears and hearing?
Maybe someone with medical knowledge can chime in?

That is not dBSPL. Decibels measure many things, we use dBSPL here to measure sound pressure levels. What you are referencing is dB re1 μPa which does not correspond to dBSPL.
post #2988 of 4389
post #2989 of 4389
post #2990 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Don't let Beast or Popalock see this. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Like I said don't let Popalock and Beast see this. I think they have their bottom end boosted by more than 30db's. They are certified ULFtard's! biggrin.gif

I saw it biggrin.gifwink.gif

I get what he was saying though....



Bosso, how does one exactly post a blank post? Twice! Haha tongue.gif
post #2991 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I'm running mine 4 per side right now with no issues and like 12DB of eq. I think its a win win since the drivers don't need a lot of juice, the eq that would normally be a taxing load on the amp is no biggie. I've thought about bridging the FP14k so the drivers are at 98DB efficiency and an even easier load but I've only seen a tickle of a clip light watching the big dragon crash on HTTYD.

Hummm, I haven't considered this.

You are saying that bridging the amp would increase efficiency? I am running 4 subs per channel now, but I'd run bridge mode in a second if there would be a benefit to do so? Also, how do you get that 8 ohm bridge mode is an "easier load" than 4 ohm stereo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

200+db? Where do you get this crap?

Thanks for the reference not. Interesting read for sure.

I was kinda disappointed not to see Thor's Hammer Smash or Goku's Kamayhamayha referenced:


Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Don't let Beast or Popalock see this. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Like I said don't let Popalock and Beast see this. I think they have their bottom end boosted by more than 30db's. They are certified ULFtard's! biggrin.gif

lol... You can usually tell by a person's post that they are set in their ways and there is no changing their mind. Besides, ignorance is bliss. I wouldn’t know what I was missing either if I didn't take a leap of faith to explore what all of the infrasound hype was about. I say leave the man to his own devices, but his unnecessary trolling just to ruffle feathers isn't cool...or "professional."

KEAGER! Sorry to hear about your troubles my friend. Hope you get it worked out soon buddy. When I ordered my second Clone I ordered a spare amp board just in case...lol. Proactive planning to leverage risk...a risk I was willing to take.
post #2992 of 4389
Hey Popalock, wiring the subs to be 98DB is a 3db increase in sensitivity that's where the increase in efficiency comes. 8omh bridged/4omh stereo same thing in terms of the load on the amp but now the amp is working with 98DB vs 95db, more efficient, less power.
post #2993 of 4389
I dont even know how I would wire 8 subs to one channel
post #2994 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I dont even know how I would wire 8 subs to one channel

I wire 12 drivers to one channel for a 6.3 ohm load. I love doing this as it creates one big sub, of course all the subs need to be together or on the same plane so they are all in phase. I made a bass array doing this.
post #2995 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I dont even know how I would wire 8 subs to one channel
It's simple, wire each sub at 1-ohm and then wire them together to get 8-ohm, plug that into the amp and enable bridge mode. hehe tongue.gif

That said, I don't do that. I have each sub on it's own dedicated channel. Like NotNyt does.

Each sub in my system has it's own timing and phase, because I sprinkle them around the room. (Still deciding if that is the better way or not).
Edited by BassThatHz - 5/21/13 at 9:39am
post #2996 of 4389
It all depends on the drivers power handling and the LMS5400 can handle 2000 watts or perfect one channel of the clone at 8 ohms or two on 4 ohms.
post #2997 of 4389
When I said in conclusion, I meant it but allow me to have a final conclusion.
Since baby, I listening and loving music, from music family. Started playing guitars at 6 years old . Set up my first sound system in 1984. Started audio electronics in 1986 ..........
In my immature concept of music equalization back then, I tried to emulate the tones of cars and buses systems; I enjoyed very low and hard subs rumble, soft midrange and piercing fine highs. As I mature and learn from my senior Pro Sound Engineers ( courses) along with diligent reading and practical test in my own make shift laboratory, I see music and sound different now . For me , it is very much like cook food, too much of any ingredient spoil the pot. Bass and highs are the condiments. Midrange is the body, the range that can play by itself and still be appreciated.
As China and the other Asian countries grab hold on the consumer electronics market so they also control and manipulate the standards and specs. Everyone knows that when you buy these products you see crazy as hell specs on them . So my point is, though you may see 3 hz specs on a woofer or amp its just marketing gimmicks . Those deep low rumble from explosions that you hear are still above 20 hz . As I said, I have listed to the spectrum way below 20 and was hearing literally each low frequency sound wave. like dob dob dob dob, with the cone moving like crazy.
post #2998 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman mars View Post

When I said in conclusion, I meant it but allow me to have a final conclusion.
Since baby, I listening and loving music, from music family. Started playing guitars at 6 years old . Set up my first sound system in 1984. Started audio electronics in 1986 ..........
In my immature concept of music equalization back then, I tried to emulate the tones of cars and buses systems; I enjoyed very low and hard subs rumble, soft midrange and piercing fine highs. As I mature and learn from my senior Pro Sound Engineers ( courses) along with diligent reading and practical test in my own make shift laboratory, I see music and sound different now . For me , it is very much like cook food, too much of any ingredient spoil the pot. Bass and highs are the condiments. Midrange is the body, the range that can play by itself and still be appreciated.
As China and the other Asian countries grab hold on the consumer electronics market so they also control and manipulate the standards and specs. Everyone knows that when you buy these products you see crazy as hell specs on them . So my point is, though you may see 3 hz specs on a woofer or amp its just marketing gimmicks . Those deep low rumble from explosions that you hear are still above 20 hz . As I said, I have listed to the spectrum way below 20 and was hearing literally each low frequency sound wave. like dob dob dob dob, with the cone moving like crazy.

So have we, we all know what below 20hz feels like and we also monitor movies soundtracks to see what is on the disc. So when we say the effects of Black Hawk Down is cool we know it is 6hz and 18hz. We also could HP that 6hz to feel the difference and we leave the HP off. WE also try different amps and measure our systems so we know what is what, we are not guessing here, you are in the wrong thread for that.
post #2999 of 4389
Wow...just wow....
post #3000 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


I saw it biggrin.gifwink.gif

I get what he was saying though....



Bosso, how does one exactly post a blank post? Twice! Haha tongue.gif

It's a trade secret. smile.gif

It's exactly my response to the whole "You can't hear below 20 Hz", "Pro sound are more better", "Unintended artifacts", "Full bandwidth is extremism" and all that related sort of way off topic completely ass-backward drivel.
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