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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 109

post #3241 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

I thought the LG numbers were commonly known on this board to be peak.

The numbers cookie got in his testing pretty much proved that, and he even said that peak numbers would be double what he listed.

It has been to me. I'm pretty sure most of us (and Sanway owners) know this.

Up until these recent tests has there ever been a mention of their RMS capability? I've never seen it if there were.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #3242 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

It has been to me. I'm pretty sure most of us (and Sanway owners) know this.

Up until these recent tests has there ever been a mention of their RMS capability? I've never seen it if there were.

Until cookies tests we really had no idea. I never saw any mention of RMS or continuous.
post #3243 of 4389
Have anyone even considered that these were 10hz tests! The other amps were tested at 20hz, big difference guys. We have always used these for their low end power and where we notice the differences and where the extra power needs to be when considering full bandwidth.
post #3244 of 4389
^ yeah, ummm, no. I guess it's only considered "peak power" by AVS DIY. In plain english on their own web site it's listed as RMS: http://www.china-sanway.com/Product.asp?BigClassName=FP-new%20series%20Switching%20Power%20Amplifier

Again, it tested far below spec. That's simply the reality, like it or not. Just like many others (amplifiers) that are- again- lambasted here for the identical reason. So maybe then it's "peak power" for all the other models that don't meet their spec? rolleyes.gif

So then, I'd like to see the evidence that the Crown won't produce results within ~3 decibels...or anything negating anything else I've mentioned. Thus far, we have nothing which is a shame as I feel it's very much in the best interest of AVS and especially those who are considering this and other amplifiers for hi-power applications.

James
post #3245 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ yeah, ummm, no. I guess it's only considered "peak power" by AVS DIY. In plain english on their own web site it's listed as RMS: http://www.china-sanway.com/Product.asp?BigClassName=FP-new%20series%20Switching%20Power%20Amplifier



James

*ahem*

That's a quote from Sanway. IE. not to be trusted as accurate. That's like going to Amazon and trusting their tech specs for movies and stuff.

C'mon James. tongue.gif


Btw, read the actual Lab Gruppen data sheet on the FP+ amps and there is NO mention of RMS power. All power is quoted as "max" or "peak" and it is listed as 4,400w per channel for the 14k.
post #3246 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Have anyone even considered that these were 10hz tests! The other amps were tested at 20hz, big difference guys. We have always used these for their low end power and where we notice the differences and where the extra power needs to be when considering full bandwidth.

Sure. I'd just like to see the evidence the Crown amp in question does not offer 10hz output. Just because it hasn't been tested doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Pretty straightforward, really.

Again, I brought up this VERY issue when I was on the fence between the 4002 and sanway and someone found a german site that showed the Crown met its specs...something the sanway does not. And, crucially, I have measured 100+db 10hz output in my own room with the 4002 which serves me quite nicely, empirically. I guess I need to post a vid. rolleyes.gif

James
post #3247 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

*ahem*

That's a quote from Sanway. IE. not to be trusted as accurate. That's like going to Amazon and trusting their tech specs for movies and stuff.

C'mon James. tongue.gif


Btw, read the actual Lab Gruppen data sheet on the FP+ amps and there is NO mention of RMS power. All power is quoted as "max" or "peak" and it is listed as 4,400w per channel for the 14k.

Precisely. Yeah, I suppose if you cannot use the company's own specs and website, you kinda know your baseline. Someone asserted it said "peak" on their own site. It doesn't. Bit of an "end of" to me, but YMMV. So- again- we'll just use the "real" RMS results which seem to indicate nothing more than ~3dbs of additional output over a 4002. Folks can decide for themselves if the 3dbs trumps the other cons listed.


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 8/21/13 at 11:30am
post #3248 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Precisely. Yeah, I suppose if you cannot use the company's own specs and website, you kinda know where you're at. Someone asserted it said "peak" on their own site. It doesn't. Bit of an "end of" to me, but YMMV. So- again- we'll just use the "real" RMS results which seem to indicate nothing more than ~3dbs of additional output over a 4002. Folks can decide for themselves if the 3dbs trumps the other cons listed.


James

My issue is that you originally said 1db, which I think you can honestly admit wouldn't be the case.

3db is possible, but in the case of 4ohm/8ohm stereo, since the numbers are more than double for the clone (8ohm is closer to a tripling), wouldn't you say more than 3db is most likely true?
post #3249 of 4389
Of course it will have 10 hz output, but if it has rolloff(even only 3 dBs) then it would have half the power than at 20hz. So if it is 3 dBs under at 20hz it will be more like 6 dBs at 10. Of course until we see the exact tests on many amps it is all guesses anyways. The whole point of a theater is to have what one needs for their goals. No reason to come to a clone thread and poop on it.

Reaching a certain dB in room has to do more with the subs and room than amp. How much power are you really using to reach 100 dBs at 10 hz in a room? Every room and subs vary. I guess for us to really test in our rooms is to run say a crown amp on your subs and see what the max is at 10hz. Whether it is THD limited or amp clipping limited. Then run the same test with a Sanway and see if it changes and by how much. One can figure out things for their room and setup. Ok, who wants to start swapping stuff to do this? I guess I can run a EP-4000 for a comparison, etc..
post #3250 of 4389
^ Incorrect luke. It's precisely the case for me. See, I bought an amplifier than can (and does) drive dual 2 ohm loads so I'm looking at 1600 watts per channel which is around 1.5 dbs less than the sanways 2600 per 4 ohm. I said LESS than 3 dbs in one case and around (or slightly more, 4dbs?) in another. Context is king.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 8/21/13 at 11:48am
post #3251 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Of course it will have 10 hz output, but if it has rolloff(even only 3 dBs) then it would have half the power than at 20hz. So if it is 3 dBs under at 20hz it will be more like 6 dBs at 10. Of course until we see the exact tests on many amps it is all guesses anyways. The whole point of a theater is to have what one needs for their goals. No reason to come to a clone thread and poop on it.

Reaching a certain dB in room has to do more with the subs and room than amp. How much power are you really using to reach 100 dBs at 10 hz in a room? Every room and subs vary. I guess for us to really test in our rooms is to run say a crown amp on your subs and see what the max is at 10hz. Whether it is THD limited or amp clipping limited. Then run the same test with a Sanway and see if it changes and by how much. One can figure out things for their room and setup. Ok, who wants to start swapping stuff to do this? I guess I can run a EP-4000 for a comparison, etc..

The allusion was of course that there was no or little rolloff (at least none evidence, thus far). I guess I should have been more exacting.

"pooping"? Is that what being saliently critical is called these days? Is this thread simply a praise-party? I thought it was to discuss the amplifier- pro and con. Seems like there is AMPLE evidence for the VERY same reality on other amp threads. And who's "pooping' anyway...as I said, it's a fine option for those who need hyper-power, so long as they're aware of the limitations and other cons. It's an amplifier, not someone's child.

Honestly, I'm not terribly interested in going OT about what's most important in reaching a given SPL in a room...you need all three variables one way or another. This is simply viewing this amp in the same light we do all others...for better and worse.

The clone produces more power than the Crown and other amps...no reasonable or intelligent person would dispute that fact. I'm simply suggesting that the output difference vs comparably priced amplifiers should be carefully considered, and weighed with all of the other variables.

And I'm glad you brought up "goals" as that's what's really important and kinda why I start to ask folks to REALLY consider the 3-4 decibels. Where are you before you go up another 3? For many, it's absurd and really out of whack with the balance of the content (see 130+ db bass and 85-100db output elsewhere) , but again, that's up to consumer to decide and no one here is telling them they cannot choose as they see fit.


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 8/21/13 at 11:53am
post #3252 of 4389
You are comparing a measured 10hz against a spec at 20hz and above(I hope). That is not correct to do. Until your crown is tested at 10hz(that is what this test did) then you have no idea what it really would do. People have been doing this since the EP-2500 was tested and always use the measured watts vs watts from specs and just not the same. It has to be apples to apples. The guy who did the test even suggested another amp without even testing it the same way.

The problem is we have one test at 10hz and the Sanway is still providing the power with no rolloff. Do you honestly think 14000 watts was a RMS number? Or any amps numbers for that matter? When I see EP-4000 I see a 4000 watt amp, max, no more. Probably under like any amp. That means peaks
post #3253 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post



The clone produces more power than the Crown and other amps...no reasonable or intelligent person would dispute that fact. I'm simply suggesting that the output difference vs comparably priced amplifiers should be carefully considered, and weighed with all of the other variables.



James

I'm not sure why you would mention this. Everyone is aware of the risks of purchasing these Sanway amplifiers. I would venture to say that each person has "weighed all of the other variables" before purchasing or not purchasing.

If one hasn't then they have just made a very poor and uneducated decision of which no one but themselves are responsible for.
post #3254 of 4389
Can we just agree that people are happy with their clones, and the performance specs should explain why they like them, and that you are happy that you got your crown and have the performance you want? I think that says enough.
post #3255 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You are comparing a measured 10hz against a spec at 20hz and above(I hope). That is not correct to do. Until your crown is tested at 10hz(that is what this test did) then you have no idea what it really would do. People have been doing this since the EP-2500 was tested and always use the measured watts vs watts from specs and just not the same. It has to be apples to apples. The guy who did the test even suggested another amp without even testing it the same way.

The problem is we have one test at 10hz and the Sanway is still providing the power with no rolloff. Do you honestly think 14000 watts was a RMS number? Or any amps numbers for that matter? When I see EP-4000 I see a 4000 watt amp, max, no more. Probably under like any amp. That means peaks

The real "problem" as I see are assumptions made without evidence. I have already told you what my Crown does with my duals- at least from an output standpoint: 100+dbs at 10hz. No, I was pushing it to the brink, just playing with a demo disc. What does it have left? What would it measure? Don't know...but I'm not going to make baseless assumptions about it either. How the hell do I- or anyone else- know?

Besides, what I honestly think is immaterial. How many "honestly think" 7,000 per channel is a reality? Again, not the point in the first place. The point is comparing one amp to another, holistically. I've posted my points based upon what seems to be accepted as fact. Still waiting for one of them to be refuted with fact.


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 8/21/13 at 12:06pm
post #3256 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I'm not sure why you would mention this. Everyone is aware of the risks of purchasing these Sanway amplifiers. I would venture to say that each person has "weighed all of the other variables" before purchasing or not purchasing.

If one hasn't then they have just made a very poor and uneducated decision of which no one but themselves are responsible for.

I'd say you're about right. But we're both on here everyday and it seems to me I've seen more than a few jump in feet first without knowing all the facts.

Agreed on the responsibility of the decision-maker.

James
post #3257 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Can we just agree that people are happy with their clones, and the performance specs should explain why they like them, and that you are happy that you got your crown and have the performance you want? I think that says enough.

Fair enough.

James
post #3258 of 4389
Mastermaybe,
You are not pointing out facts when saying that the sanways are only 3 dBs or 1.5 dBs more in output because the tests are not the same. Until both are tested the same way it is a guess.
post #3259 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Wow, this turned into a clusterfck. We have people posting who don't know the difference between burst vs continuous/rms output and then further comparing test results at different frequencies. Post some side by side testing or just stop with the bickering.

Mastermaybe, nobody cares what db your amp/speaker/room combination puts out, it isn't relevant or scientific in any way. Your posts show a lack of understanding that's painful to read.
post #3260 of 4389
Ok let's put it this way: since the Crown has been vetted 20hz-20khz we'll say it's 3 dbs behind the sanway, there. Now we'll wait for someone to test it at that crucial 10hz point and we can say "x", then about its 10hz output.

James
post #3261 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Wow, this turned into a clusterfck. We have people posting who don't know the difference between burst vs continuous/rms output and then further comparing test results at different frequencies. Post some side by side testing or just stop with the bickering.

Mastermaybe, nobody cares what db your amp/speaker/room combination puts out, it isn't relevant or scientific in any way. Your posts show a lack of understanding that's painful to read.

Who would "those people" be? None that I can tell, in here. Sounds great though. Now you roll up running thy www mouth and grossly misrepresenting what I have typed that sits plainly evident to the contrary for anyone to correctly comprehend it?

Nice try, I guess. ? I'm rating RMS vs RMS...re-read it if you have to...and it desperately appears you do. What I DID correctly take umbrage with was the contention that sanyway listed "peak" power when they plainly did not. The comparisons- AGAIN- are made between the tested RMS results of either amplifier. Got it?

Or don't get it. But please avoid coming onto the thread with nothing other than inciting mis-truths that accomplish nothing other than needlessly provoking more of what you claim to be waging against. rolleyes.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 8/21/13 at 12:24pm
post #3262 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Wow, this turned into a clusterfck. We have people posting who don't know the difference between burst vs continuous/rms output and then further comparing test results at different frequencies. Post some side by side testing or just stop with the bickering.

Mastermaybe, nobody cares what db your amp/speaker/room combination puts out, it isn't relevant or scientific in any way. Your posts show a lack of understanding that's painful to read.

I tried to explain what my 10hz output "meant" but apparently you comprehended that as well as you did my output comparison between the two amps in question. Nice one.

James
post #3263 of 4389
We all know rolloff of amps does not mean a brick wall filter so of course you will have 10hz output. What if one wants 5hz? As an amp drops it gets harder and harder. The main reason these clones were even mentioned to us was for the people wanting power down low, real low. Both Bosso and Not tested these and they worked better than their other powerful amps, that is all. I don't know why this has turned into something it was never intended to be. I have measured at 10hz as well and I wonder if I could get the same results with another $875 amp? Maybe because I was THD limited, not amp power. I knew this building my system though.
post #3264 of 4389
All I know is that my XTI4k's kept overheating and clipping, and my clone doesn't.
Not sure what that means in electrical or acoustical terms, but to me that's the world of difference.

The reason I purchased an iTech 8000 was because the XTI was insufficient.

The reason why I purchased the clone was merely to "try something new", risk/reward. It paid off.
I've been hammering the clone with 5hz to 20khz content for 1 year now and zero problems.
The value is too high for such a price to ignore.

I've mentioned all of this several times, to varying degrees.

Now I'm looking strongly into going pure-clone for all 7 speakers and 10 subs; I like the clones that much.
But the risk factor is huge, so I'm taking my time, slowly transitioning over from 35kW to upwards of 57kW.
I need 5 or 7 clones to power all my stuff and 2 or 5 DCX's.
post #3265 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post


Now I'm looking strongly into going pure-clone for all 7 speakers and 10 subs; I like the clones that much.
But the risk factor is huge, so I'm taking my time, slowly transitioning over from 35kW to upwards of 57kW.
I need 5 or 7 clones to power all my stuff and 2 or 5 DCX's.

Let me know when you're ready to jump, I have 4 lightly use, working FP10000K clones... I want to sell all 4 at once. I'm not giving them away and they have been taxed and duty paid to get them into Canada, but i will decrease the price based on usage.
SP
post #3266 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heywood1969 View Post

Let me know when you're ready to jump, I have 4 lightly use, working FP10000K clones... I want to sell all 4 at once. I'm not giving them away and they have been taxed and duty paid to get them into Canada, but i will decrease the price based on usage.
SP

There is duty charged when you ship them to canada on top of the us$785 cost +us$120 fedex? So there was 13% HST charged and how much was the duty?
post #3267 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

We all know rolloff of amps does not mean a brick wall filter so of course you will have 10hz output. What if one wants 5hz? As an amp drops it gets harder and harder. The main reason these clones were even mentioned to us was for the people wanting power down low, real low. Both Bosso and Not tested these and they worked better than their other powerful amps, that is all. I don't know why this has turned into something it was never intended to be. I have measured at 10hz as well and I wonder if I could get the same results with another $875 amp? Maybe because I was THD limited, not amp power. I knew this building my system though.

Again. How do we know that the xti rolls off at 10hz at all? We don't.

Again. Who disagrees that the sanway has more output? No one.

I can say that I've punished the living hell out of my crown and it hasn't shut down although I have seen the clip lights briefly illuminate...the clones are good for another 3 (or whatver) decibels so it's very possible hz or someone else needs them and would be too much for another amp that lacks the power.

James
post #3268 of 4389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heywood1969 View Post

Let me know when you're ready to jump, I have 4 lightly use, working FP10000K clones... I want to sell all 4 at once. I'm not giving them away and they have been taxed and duty paid to get them into Canada, but i will decrease the price based on usage.
SP

I need 3 14k's and another 1, 2 or 3 10k's... depending on exactly how crazy with the cheezwhiz I go.

4 SEOS Rears: 1 10k (already have that covered)
3 SEOS Mains: 2 10k's (new)
4 kickbins: 1 10k (new)
Front subs: 1 14k (new)
Side subs: 1 14k (new)
Rear subs: 1 14k (new)
post #3269 of 4389
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

But please avoid coming onto the thread with nothing other than inciting mis-truths that accomplish nothing other than needlessly provoking more of what you claim to be waging against. rolleyes.gif

James


... really?
post #3270 of 4389
Guys - placing my order for the 110v fp14000 today. Anything else I need to specify? This is for two LMS-U g-horns.

Thanks,
Doug
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