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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 124

post #3691 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerfool View Post

BTW have any of you read the numerous bulletins put out by your good friend (real thing) LG? Well Well Well, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

What are these "bulletins" to which you refer?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #3692 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerfool View Post

These Fp clones are mirrors of the "made in Sweden" LG. If all you take some time to read the schematic you will notice it is the exact thing minus NomadLink .Now the quality of the components used is of lower quality in the China versions. For all those who are questioning quality here's the challenge. Buy yourself a clone remove all components and put in the highest military grade you can find and trust me you will have enough money left to buy 3 more clones.Now after all is said and done hope and pray you don't get a breakdown and if you do I wonder what or who you going to blame. The PCB ? BTW have any of you read the numerous bulletins put out by your good friend (real thing) LG? Well Well Well, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

I can't tell if this a flame or a praise?

Also, are you saying LG has publicly expressed discontent with Sanway?
post #3693 of 4375
DOCUMENTS ARE CONFIDENTIAL AND MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF LAB.GRUPPEN AB AND TC Electronic A/S
Im going to give you some examples without going into details.

Reference no: SGW Failure
Following models are affected by this technical service bulletin: FP 6000Q
FP 7000
FP 10000Q
FP 13000Symptom
When the SGW’s has failed there can in some cases cause other component failures which can be hard to find. This bulletin describes how to check and fix an amplifier that have been subjected for SGW failures.


Reference no: FP+ Fans
Affected models
Following models are affected by this technical service bulletin: FP 10000Q
FP 13000
Affected boards/modules
Fans.
Symptom
In some FP 10000Q and FP 13000 there is a possibility that wrong fans have been mounted. The air flow of the wrong fans is not sufficient which affect the amplifier to not be able to deliver full power when driven hard since they will get into thermal protection. Cooling is not good enough if wrong fans are mounted.

Technical Service Bulletin No. (omitted)
THIS BULLETIN REPLACES BULLETIN No ### AND NO ### Pot FP Plus
Created by: Lab.gruppen AB Service Department Date ####
Reference no: Pot FP Plus
Affected models
Following models are affected by this technical service bulletin: FP 6000Q
FP 7000
FP 10000Q
FP 13000
Affected boards/modules
###########
Symptom
Distortion or dead channel due to bad potentiometers. Potentiometer ########### replaces potentiometer ########## since the 21-step potentiometer has bad quality.
When doing service on a FP+ Series amplifier the potentiometers shall be exchanged if a POT-board with the old type of potentiometers is mounted. See picture below on how to identify the old type of potentiometer.
post #3694 of 4375
Papalock Im not quite sure I understand your question.Now let me clear the air a bit. I own 4 Fp14000 and 2 Fp10000q all from Sanway and I must say they are not the best among the best clones.With few modifications I have been able to keep them alive for 4 yrs now and they work hard 3 days weekly. However I must say this. That design is one of the best ever produced on the planet so far. LG did a great job in showing the world "big engine lousy transmission or small engine with great trans" who gets better milage. The idea of using arc welding plants for audio is no longer.Voltage is the key.
post #3695 of 4375
So voltage, not current is key which dispells the idea that heavy iron transformers designed for max current are not as important as voltage which do not require heavy iron transformers.....and LG has proved this with their amps? Am I following correctly? Very interesting.
post #3696 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

So voltage, not current is key which dispells the idea that heavy iron transformers designed for max current are not as important as voltage which do not require heavy iron transformers.....and LG has proved this with their amps? Am I following correctly? Very interesting.
it's been that way for quite some while now. it's been that way and behringer (for example, and others) have been using it.

flimsy, cheap, lightweight and everything else associated with small and cheap power supply, powering high powered amp modules.
it's been that way since science and engineering proved that music power is only 25% (at best) continuous power. you don't need high current continuous power supply unless you're doing measurement or outputting pure sine waves.

heck some research peg music power at 1/8 continuous. music surge draw their current from reservoir caps, and the transformer replenish them.
LG didn't invent the concept.

and oh btw, good luck searching for military grade components. you're better off looking for a needle in any haystack.
post #3697 of 4375
Oh im not interested in finding military grade components im only commenting because powerfool made a light click in my brain with reference to the welding factory. I've always thought it takes high current to obtain massive watts that we want driving our subs and always felt that using these lightweight high wattage amps I was compromising quality over power but since its for my subs its ok. Now i see it differently...starting to anyway's.
post #3698 of 4375
I guess i bought into the "high current" marketing strategies of companies like Adcom, Parasound, etc and always kinda scoffed privately at Carver & Crown as gimickie power as an example.

I never heard of LG, Behrenger, etc,, amps until I started my sub build. Course Crown has been around for many years but they made some lightweight amps with lots of power too but these flyweight amps today with gobs of power just amaze me.

I'm not finished yet with my subs but even though I bought a known working clone to drive my eight SI-18's, I'm not going to believe it until i hear it so it was a faith purchase...sorta. Im just taking a lot of the guys on the forums experience as fact that it is what it is. smile.gif So now all the VPL settings make more sense. They provide the voltage for the modules which produce the power (watts). Again,,,,very interesting... In a good way. Im feeling very happy.
Edited by 316 - 11/28/13 at 5:46am
post #3699 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

So voltage, not current is key which dispells the idea that heavy iron transformers designed for max current are not as important as voltage which do not require heavy iron transformers.....and LG has proved this with their amps? Am I following correctly? Very interesting.

Can't just talk voltage or just current (amps). The power (watts) going to your speaker is a combination of voltage and current, in a ratio defined (basicaily) by Ohm's law for any given impedance. You can't have one without the other, or mix and match voltage and current in some ratio that defies Ohm's Law relative to the impedance of the speaker/driver.

Yes, an amp is primarily a voltage amplfier/voltage source, but that is really a matter of its basic function. It is not at all to imply that current is somehow less important in the equation of power delivered to the speaker/driver. For example, delivering 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker requires ~141 volts and results in ~35 amps of current. You don't get 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker any other way than with that combination of volts and amps.

What is done in the power supply regarding lightweight switching power supplies vs. big iron power supplies is irrespective of what's happening from the amp to the speaker/driver. Regardless of the topology of the power supply, it too must produce voltage and current in sufficient quantity to satisfy the output stages. Neither voltage nor current is more important than the other. Both are necessary in the proper ratio for the circuit.
Edited by whoaru99 - 12/13/13 at 12:04pm
post #3700 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

I guess i bought into the "high current" marketing strategies of companies like Adcom, Parasound, etc and always kinda scoffed privately at Carver & Crown as gimickie power as an example.

I never heard of LG, Behrenger, etc,, amps until I started my sub build. Course Crown has been around for many years but they made some lightweight amps with lots of power too but these flyweight amps today with gobs of power just amaze me.

I'm not finished yet with my subs but even though I bought a known working clone to drive my eight SI-18's, I'm not going to believe it until i hear it so it was a faith purchase...sorta. Im just taking a lot of the guys on the forums experience as fact that it is what it is. smile.gif So now all the VPL settings make more sense. They provide the voltage for the modules which produce the power (watts). Again,,,,very interesting... In a good way. Im feeling very happy.
Are you a believer yet?
post #3701 of 4375
smile.gif I see the light! Im going to find out for sure by next week when I load my drivers in my new cabinets and fire up my clone for the first time. biggrin.gif
post #3702 of 4375
just make sure to do battery test for continuity and polarity before hitting your nice new cabs with thunderbolts and lightening strikes of power.
post #3703 of 4375
haha....okay LTD02, don't want to see that kind of light!! eek.gifsmile.gif Thanks!!
post #3704 of 4375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Can't just talk voltage or just current (amps). The power (watts) going to your speaker is a combination of voltage and current, in a ratio defined (basicaily) by Ohm's law for any given impedance. You can't have one without the other, or mix and match voltage and current in some ratio that defies Ohm's Law relative to the impedance of the speaker/driver.

Yes, an amp is primarily a voltage amplfier/voltage source, but that is really a matter of its basic function. It is not at all to imply that current is somehow less important in the equation of power delivered to the speaker/driver. For example, delivering 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker requires ~141 volts and results in ~35 amps of current. You don't get 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker any other way than with that combination of volts and amps.

What is done in the power supply regarding lightweight switching power supplies vs. big iron power supplies is irrespective of what's happening from the amp to the speaker/driver. Regardless of the topology of the power supply, it too must produce voltage and current in sufficient quantity to satisfy the output stages. Neither voltage nor current is more important than the other. Both are necessary in the proper ratio for the circuit.


If it can produce the voltage at a given frequency, the current will be dictated by the resistance of the load at that frequency. Given this, you kind of can talk about amplifiers in just voltage.
post #3705 of 4375
"For example, delivering 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker requires ~141 volts and results in ~35 amps of current. You don't get 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker any other way than with that combination of volts and amps."

that's true, but only down in the real low frequencies where the driver is almost purely resistive. over most of the operating range, the current is much less than that as the impedance is much higher than the dc resistance of the driver.
post #3706 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If it can produce the voltage at a given frequency, the current will be dictated by the resistance of the load at that frequency. Given this, you kind of can talk about amplifiers in just voltage.

Kind of, yes, you can; which was the reason why mentioning the amplfier being a voltage amplifer/voltage source.

The bigger point was to dispel a potential misunderstanding for 316 that voltage is the only factor at play, coming off a previous misuderstanding that only "high current" is important/biggest factor.
Edited by whoaru99 - 12/14/13 at 6:38am
post #3707 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"For example, delivering 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker requires ~141 volts and results in ~35 amps of current. You don't get 5000 watts to a 4 ohm speaker any other way than with that combination of volts and amps."

that's true, but only down in the real low frequencies where the driver is almost purely resistive. over most of the operating range, the current is much less than that as the impedance is much higher than the dc resistance of the driver.

Of course, that's why I included the importance of Ohm's Law in that post -
Quote:
The power (watts) going to your speaker is a combination of voltage and current, in a ratio defined (basicaily) by Ohm's law for any given impedance. You can't have one without the other, or mix and match voltage and current in some ratio that defies Ohm's Law relative to the impedance of the speaker/driver.
post #3708 of 4375
Ohms law right, got it, understand that, and I thank you guys for the input.... smile.gif

...but its just odd how some MFG's make it sound like you must have high current to drive speakers which of course for any given resistance and current there must be a certain voltage to complete the equation (ohms law) and if you think about it in terms of High current naturally you think large transformer (heavy iron) to produce high current while at the same time when you think high voltage you don't necessarily think of it the same way since you can put thousands of volts in a small conductor, but you cannot do that with high current. Passing thousand of volts into a small conductor must have minimal current in the milliamps related to the resistance of the conductor.

So... I always thought the current was the main force driving the speaker (understanding ohms law and the association between E, I, R) and naturally associated high current to heavy iron (the comment about welding transformers in earlier post by forum member) and because of that when I see and hear of an amplifier weighing only a few pounds and boasting lots of watts I just looked at it as smoke and mirrors but now I understand that the current is really not as continuous or high as it would be say when you are welding.

Its just an example of how I got duped by advertisements from MFG's but the other factor is my history with tube amps where heavy Iron usually equates to quality....

...any way's, not to belabor the point but just wanted to clarify and thought it interesting how sometimes we (myself) can be persuaded by advertising. I thought I was above that lol smile.gif

Speaker wire is another example, does it have to carry the 35amps or do we only worry about the 141 volts...if its 35 amps then using heavy guage speaker wire is an overkill. After all it is AC current not DC right? tongue.gif or is it? smile.gif



But....I see the light!! eek.gifsmile.gif
Edited by 316 - 12/14/13 at 7:45pm
post #3709 of 4375
The gauge of wire is determined by current (amperage) not voltage.
post #3710 of 4375
Correct....that's why I made sure to add milliamps when describing the high voltage in a small conductor. Wire is always chosen by its current carrying capacity. In speaker wire as far as I know its not viewed in the same manner and if we buy an amp that outputs 5kwatts do we think about selecting wire rated for 35amps not to mention the added 1.5 percent (exact number escapes my memory at the momment) for safety ? Anyways my point is only meant to refer to advertising and how it can affect the consumer...nameley myself smile.gif
post #3711 of 4375
Hey pain, i'm a Vikings fan but im rooting for your Eagles today! We need a Qb so gotta get that high draft pick... biggrin.gif
post #3712 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Hey pain, i'm a Vikings fan but im rooting for your Eagles today! We need a Qb so gotta get that high draft pick... biggrin.gif

Hahaha. I know what you are saying. The Texans are my second favorite team, and I hope they loose the rest of their games so that they can get a qb too.

But yes, I hope the Eagles win today too so they can stay ahead of the cowgirls in the NFC East!

I see your sig....do you have any pics?
post #3713 of 4375
That must be nice liking the home team even if second, I wish the 49ers were my second best team or dare I even say the Raiders..ugh.. I have to wait for the Vikings to come to town to go see the game live. Out of my four boys, two are traitors, one a 9er fan and the other UGH a diehard Cowboy fan!

My daughter broke my heart years ago...she is a 9er fan! ... but her boyfriend is a Vikings fan...so there's still hope!! biggrin.gif
post #3714 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

That must be nice liking the home team even if second, I wish the 49ers were my second best team or dare I even say the Raiders..ugh.. I have to wait for the Vikings to come to town to go see the game live. Out of my four boys, two are traitors, one a 9er fan and the other UGH a diehard Cowboy fan!

My daughter broke my heart years ago...she is a 9er fan! ... but her boyfriend is a Vikings fan...so there's still hope!! biggrin.gif

Too funny! The problem with me is that I live in Texas and their are Cowboy fans every where. I have learned over the years just to keep quiet. biggrin.gif
post #3715 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Speaker wire is another example, does it have to carry the 35amps or do we only worry about the 141 volts...if its 35 amps then using heavy guage speaker wire is an overkill.

Certainly not in the big leagues re: welding heavy plate, 35A is still a fair amount of current. While not really significant in terms of a performance degredation at this level of power, using 12ga wire for a relatively short run, say 10 feet of cable (20 ft of wire), 35A of current will result in approximately 40 watts of I^2R losses in that 10 ft. of cable. 16 ga cable in the same situation would result in roughly 100 watts I^2R losses. Those losses heat the cable.
Edited by whoaru99 - 12/15/13 at 9:02am
post #3716 of 4375
Hey all. I've been seeing numbers pop up that I believe to be wrong concerning the output of the FP10Q 220v model.

It's my understanding that the current draw is half of what it would be of the 110v model.

What I believe to be closer to correct is 16amps x 150(or less)v = 2400 watts/channel max (more than max I "think").

Not 38amps x 150v = 5700watts/channel max. I tried to point this out in the other thread but its not very active.

LG does mention the max current draw of 16amps on the 220v/230v model and just wanted some clarification.
post #3717 of 4375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Hey all. I've been seeing numbers pop up that I believe to be wrong concerning the output of the FP10Q 220v model.

It's my understanding that the current draw is half of what it would be of the 110v model.

What I believe to be closer to correct is 16amps x 150(or less)v = 2400 watts/channel max (more than max I "think").

Not 38amps x 150v = 5700watts/channel max. I tried to point this out in the other thread but its not very active.

LG does mention the max current draw of 16amps on the 220v/230v model and just wanted some clarification.

They're discussing burst output, not current draw. Keep up now wink.gif
post #3718 of 4375
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

They're discussing burst output, not current draw. Keep up now wink.gif

No, I got that (used max instead of burst in post) but just don't see how its possible even for a mil sec. There still hasn't been a test on them has there? But, I'm ignorant to most of the guts of these things so that's why I'm reaching here.

100% Efficiency (+ ?) is one thing but on paper but pulling that draw from the line and then through the driver for how long (realistically)? Would the really short burst be so short (even if it did burst that high) that nothing could be gained by it? Like waveforms take WAY more time, right?
post #3719 of 4375
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

No, I got that (used max instead of burst in post) but just don't see how its possible even for a mil sec. There still hasn't been a test on them has there? But, I'm ignorant to most of the guts of these things so that's why I'm reaching here.

100% Efficiency (+ ?) is one thing but on paper but pulling that draw from the line and then through the driver for how long (realistically)? Would the really short burst be so short (even if it did burst that high) that nothing could be gained by it? Like waveforms take WAY more time, right?

Behold, the magic of capacitors. Amps can output more power than they can draw smile.gif
post #3720 of 4375
Ok. I get that so its just a matter of 16amps line draw in the specs on LG's page only, correct? So where is the 38amp number coming from in these equations LTD is using? Is he actually calculating the internal capacitors' or what? I'm just trying to figure this out since the only white paper tests I've read on the true LGs was posted by a LG competitor.
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