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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 498

post #14911 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff1324 View Post

I just find it strange that I have to turn the volume up so high to listen to the audio at an "normal" listening level. For example, just watching the nightly news in the evening I have to turn the volume up to -20 db or so. The volume levels -80 db to -40 db is practically inaudible. I am just curious to know if all the 3312's are like this.

Yes, in fact all Denon AVRs going back to the XX09 models that use Dyn EQ are like this.
post #14912 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The "black square" button (just above the "3" on your remote) is the standard symbol for "STOP" for a BD/DVD/DVR/VCR.

I would describe that as a white button with a black square in the middle. I was looking for a square button, all black (and the acutal button is not quite square). Is it just me, or would this make a better clarification in post #2?

[ben_r_ , I tried safari too.]
post #14913 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

As your 3808CI doesn't have the $100 Feature Pack upgrade installed (Dyn EQ/Vol), there is no "reference" volume setting to 0db so the 3808CI (which is actually a level above the 3312CI) has no volume restriction as does the 3312CI. Don't worry about the volume scale and simply enjoy the audio. smile.gif

jdsmoothie,

Just curious....why do you say the 3808 is actually a level above the 3312? I do know that the 3808 is a lot heavier than the 3312 but what exactly makes it "better"? I jumped on the Amazon deal so it was hard to pass up the 3312 for roughly $500 seeing that my 3808 was pushing 5 years old. I figured that it was more of a lateral upgrade but I needed additional HDMI inputs and I liked the added features of Airplay and so forth. FYI, I am pushing the following speakers with this AVR:

- Paradigm Studio 100 V.3 Front Speakers
- Paridigm Reference Servo 15 V.2 Sub
- Paradigm Studio CC-570 V.3 Center
- Paradigm Studio ADP-470 V.3 Surround Speakers
post #14914 of 18955
It's a level above as far as components are concerned, and a lateral move as far as they both use the same version of XT. Also the current 3808CI successor is the 4311CI, while the 3312CI is the successor to the 2808CI.
post #14915 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff1324 View Post

My 3312ci has been sitting in the corner for around a month now waiting to get hooked up. Last night, I finally got around to disconnecting my Denon 3808 and hooking up the 3312. I went through the Audyssey setup, set my speakers to small, etc. One thing that I noticed was that the sound level on each input seemed to be different. For example, -10 db when using my Directv receiver was not as loud as -10 db on my AppleTV. The sound level seemed to be different for my HTPC at -10 db, etc. etc. There was no consistency between the inputs.
I have always used my HTPC to stream DVDs from my media server. With the Denon 3808 watching DVDs at reference level of 0 db was mind numbingly loud within my smaller listening area. With the 3312, I have to turn the volume up to close to 0 db to even begin to immerse myself in the sound. Running the 3312 at 0 db is loud but it doesn't seem to compare to the loudness of my 3808. On the 3808 if I really wanted to get into the movie, I watched it around -18 or -17 db. With the 3312, I have to go to -5 db to get what appears to be the same level of sound. To really even begin to watch tv at a normal level, I have to turn it up to -15 db. Once the A/C kicks on, I have to turn it up even louder.
Shouldn't the reference level of 0 db be the same between these two receivers? Any suggestions on what I am missing?
BTW, Dyn EQ is turned on and Dyn Vol is turned off.

I too went from the 3808 to the 3312 and found the same. I have to turn up the volume MUCH higher then before and that's even after adding another amp to the 3312!
post #14916 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff1324 View Post

I just find it strange that I have to turn the volume up so high to listen to the audio at an "normal" listening level. For example, just watching the nightly news in the evening I have to turn the volume up to -20 db or so. The volume levels -80 db to -40 db is practically inaudible. I am just curious to know if all the 3312's are like this.

Wouldn't bumping the speaker levels up a few dB on all channels resolve this?
post #14917 of 18955
Increasing all Source Level settings is no different than simply increasing the master volume, although doing so would increase the bass/surround audio boost from Dyn EQ (if enabled).
post #14918 of 18955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff1324 View Post

I just find it strange that I have to turn the volume up so high to listen to the audio at an "normal" listening level. For example, just watching the nightly news in the evening I have to turn the volume up to -20 db or so. The volume levels -80 db to -40 db is practically inaudible. I am just curious to know if all the 3312's are like this.

Wouldn't bumping the speaker levels up a few dB on all channels resolve this?

no point. Just turn the volume up wink.gif

regardless it's not a "problem" that needs to be "resolved." It's just the way a modern digital receiver works, the volume scale is logarithmic (decibel) not linear, so it's not like the "old days" where most of the gain was contained in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume knob's rotation.
post #14919 of 18955
I could never turn the volume all the way up on my 3808 - I can with the 3312 and that's adding a Peavey amp to power my Fronts.

and the audyssey settings are way different for my speakers w/the 3312 then the 3808. They are much higher for my fronts (which crushes them so i manually lowered them). Dont' know why audyssey would put them at a high PLUS when they are powered by an external amp. They were also set to a high PLUS before i added the external amp!
post #14920 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Increasing all Source Level settings is no different than simply increasing the master volume, although doing so would increase the bass/surround audio boost from Dyn EQ (if enabled).

But doesn't increasing the channel levels by 5dB make, say, 25dB on the relative volume scale 5dB louder than it was before the level increase? Wouldn't that give you more "headroom" on the volume knob?
post #14921 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no point. Just turn the volume up wink.gif
regardless it's not a "problem" that needs to be "resolved." It's just the way a modern digital receiver works, the volume scale is logarithmic (decibel) not linear, so it's not like the "old days" where most of the gain was contained in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume knob's rotation.

I understand that, but the poster was complaining about having to turn the receiver up to 20dB on his TV source when he didn't have to crank it that high on his older Denon. Increasing the channel levels would give him the same volume level at a lower displayed dB on the scale, and the illusion of not having to turn it up so high to get a decent volume level.
post #14922 of 18955
Im now part of the Denon owners family,,my 1612 is being delivered tomorrow,picked it up for 200.00 with free shipping..
......... now to search for a new sub and use the sattelite speakers i have already
OR just go and buy a new sub / speaker set up lol ,,any recommendations?
post #14923 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel View Post

But doesn't increasing the channel levels by 5dB make, say, 25dB on the relative volume scale 5dB louder than it was before the level increase? Wouldn't that give you more "headroom" on the volume knob?

No ... total headroom is a finite value ... increasing the Source Level by 5db simply gets you there 5db sooner.
post #14924 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jben04 View Post

Im now part of the Denon owners family,,my 1612 is being delivered tomorrow,picked it up for 200.00 with free shipping..
......... now to search for a new sub and use the sattelite speakers i have already
OR just go and buy a new sub / speaker set up lol ,,any recommendations?

Most often recommended setup is the Energy Take 5.1.
post #14925 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Most often recommended setup is the Energy Take 5.1.
Thats actually the one i was looking at,
Either that route or (little bit cheaper) go with just a sub and use the existing speakers

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015A8Y5M/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
post #14926 of 18955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no point. Just turn the volume up wink.gif
regardless it's not a "problem" that needs to be "resolved." It's just the way a modern digital receiver works, the volume scale is logarithmic (decibel) not linear, so it's not like the "old days" where most of the gain was contained in the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume knob's rotation.

I understand that, but the poster was complaining about having to turn the receiver up to 20dB on his TV source when he didn't have to crank it that high on his older Denon. Increasing the channel levels would give him the same volume level at a lower displayed dB on the scale, and the illusion of not having to turn it up so high to get a decent volume level.

I'm not in the business of illusion, just objective info smile.gif I'd rather educate the OP that his experience is normal and there is no reason to obsess about the number he sees.

Also, as JD notes, those kind of "cheats" to make the volume number different do not increase available headroom/power in the amps.
post #14927 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

I too went from the 3808 to the 3312 and found the same. I have to turn up the volume MUCH higher then before and that's even after adding another amp to the 3312!

I set the power on volume on my 3312 to -30, which works fine for my Moxi Cable DVR, which is the source I have programmed to come on during the remote power-on macro. I have to raise the volume when using my Netgear NeoTV550 media player, but I can't just adjust the source level volume for that input, since they all use the same one, via an HDMI switch. The source devices are located in a rack in the basement.


Mark
post #14928 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No ... total headroom is a finite value ... increasing the Source Level by 5db simply gets you there 5db sooner.

That's what I meant. My choice of the term "headroom" was a poor one.
post #14929 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm not in the business of illusion, just objective info smile.gif I'd rather educate the OP that his experience is normal and there is no reason to obsess about the number he sees.
Also, as JD notes, those kind of "cheats" to make the volume number different do not increase available headroom/power in the amps.

Which I think is exactly what the person complaining about it was looking for. Hey, it was merely a suggestion. wink.gif
post #14930 of 18955
The OP and myself both came from the 3808 and have experienced the same issue: the 3312 is nowhere near the same settings or volume/power as the 3808. I'm quite unimpressed that after adding a professional Peavey DJ amp to power the front L/R that the Audyssey continues to want to throw them at @+8 while the other 5.1 speakers are all at negative numbers. I really think my EQ is messed up but there's no way to prove it.
I had to adjust my sub dials on the sub going from the 3808 which I didn't expect either.
post #14931 of 18955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I'm quite unimpressed that after adding a professional Peavey DJ amp to power the front L/R that the Audyssey continues to want to throw them at @+8 while the other 5.1 speakers are all at negative numbers.

with all due respect, this demonstrates a tremendous lack of understanding. You are "unimpressed" with the channel level setting that is require to balance your speaker volumes? You are complaining about "lack of power" but you are using an external amp?

all the channel levels do is balance the speaker volumes so they play at the same level. You have an external amp which has a totally different gain structure than the internal amps -- why are you surprised that the channel levels are different for the speakers powered by the external amp? And why are you "blaming" the receiver for this? Does the external amp have a gain knob? If you turned it up, then the receiver wouldn't need to boost the level as much to match the other speakers.

you don't get a prize for having your speaker channel levels be similar, different acoustic positioning within the room as well as differing speaker designs and sensitivity will always yield different channel level results. The 3808 definitely has more power than the 3312 but the difference in absolute headroom between, say, 120 W/ch and 90 W/ch is less than 1dB. There should be almost no difference in how loud you can "crank it".
post #14932 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

with all due respect, this demonstrates a tremendous lack of understanding. You are "unimpressed" with the channel level setting that is require to balance your speaker volumes? You are complaining about "lack of power" but you are using an external amp?
all the channel levels do is balance the speaker volumes so they play at the same level. You have an external amp which has a totally different gain structure than the internal amps -- why are you surprised that the channel levels are different for the speakers powered by the external amp? And why are you "blaming" the receiver for this? Does the external amp have a gain knob? If you turned it up, then the receiver wouldn't need to boost the level as much to match the other speakers.
you don't get a prize for having your speaker channel levels be similar, different acoustic positioning within the room as well as differing speaker designs and sensitivity will always yield different channel level results. The 3808 definitely has more power than the 3312 but the difference in absolute headroom between, say, 120 W/ch and 90 W/ch is less than 1dB. There should be almost no difference in how loud you can "crank it".

I would agree with your statements if I had changed anything else in my setup. I didn't. I swapped out the 3808 for the 3312. The levels for the fronts went way up and if I leave them at what Audyssey set them at it 'crushes' the speaker and sound. The volume is way lower on every input/source compared to the 3808. The speakers are the same - they haven't changed nor moved.
It was suggested that the 3312 can't isn't as powerful as the 3808 and thus I added the external amp. Doing that didn't change anything. I ended up turning up the external amp all the way. It's a 550 watt DJ amp (I used it for DJ'ing).
post #14933 of 18955
Thread Starter 
your results suggest a defective receiver -- the fact that the problem persisted after adding an external amp confirms that it's not simply an issue of the 3312 not having as much power as the 3808. Have you had the chance to spot-check the channel volumes using an SPL meter and the internal test tones?
post #14934 of 18955
^^I have an SPL meter but have never used it. That's something I've never used before so I'd have to learn how to use it and use it properly. My thought has been there's something wrong with it but I'm not sure, exactly, how to diagnose it to prove it's defective.
post #14935 of 18955
If you have the analog Radio Shack SPL meter, set it to "C" weighting and "Slow" response and while seated at the main listening position, point the meter at each speaker to get a reading. Just as with the Audyssey mic, there is a +/- 2db error rate with this meter as well.
post #14936 of 18955
Hi all so I finally got to setting up my 3312 and ran into a bit of an issue. I plugged in all my sources as per normal and they all seem to work with the exception of my DirecTV to my main TV. I have a 1x2 HDMI splitter that I use to get DirecTV to another nearby TV. On the "other" TV direcTV, video, works fine (audio only comes from the TV speakers not my home theater speakers nearby but I will tackle that issue later). I may have made a mistake in where I plug in that splitter (initially it was plugged into the Sat/Cbl HDMI input). Should the splitter be plugged into the HDMI output? and my main TV in the Sat/Cbl HDMI input? I will try it but I just started doing a firmware update /blah.
post #14937 of 18955
A TV would always be plugged in to an AVR's HDMI Monitor Output jack, so if you have the 1:2 splitter connected to the DTV output with one HDMI going directly to the "other" TV and the other going to AVR's SAT/CBL HDMI input, then if the "other" TV cannot accept a DD 5.1 audio track, the audio going to the AVR would also be limited to only stereo 2.0.
post #14938 of 18955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

A TV would always be plugged in to an AVR's HDMI Monitor Output jack, so if you have the 1:2 splitter connected to the DTV output with one HDMI going directly to the "other" TV and the other going to AVR's SAT/CBL HDMI input, then if the "other" TV cannot accept a DD 5.1 audio track, the audio going to the AVR would also be limited to only stereo 2.0.

Not really worried about the audio to the other TV I just want to be able to have DTV on my main TV. Currently this is how I have it configured and the result is no direcTV on the main screen:

3312 Monitor output Jack: Connected via HDMI directly to my Panasonic (main TV)
in the Sat/Cabl input of the 3312: 1x2 HDMI splitter
1:2 HDMI splitter is connected to the DTV and the VIzio bar TV (other TV) then to the 3312 in the Sat/Clb input

This results in DTV video going to my bar TV and nothing going to my Panasonic/main TV
post #14939 of 18955
This is probably going to sound like a silly question,,but ill ask anyways..

In regards to my new 1612... would all the HDMI connectors go into the receiver then only the one TV would go out,thus all im using goes through the receiver and out to the TV via one HDMI ?
post #14940 of 18955
^^
In theory, yes, that is how it would ideally work. However, some components can have HDMI handshake issues (mostly cable/sat boxes) which require connecting the HDMI to the TV w/optical to the AVR to avoid the audio/video handshake issue.
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