or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 593

post #17761 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by spager View Post

I would contact them and see if they will swap it out. If they have any business ethics they will do something for you. If not I would post the online reseller with their horrible customer and business dealings.

If need be you can run an apple tv for Airplay and use something like a Blu Ray Player for networking.

Good Luck

Thanks for the advice. Today, I sent the seller an email asking for an exchange and requested a response by May 4. We'll see what happens.

I have other devices with network access in my home theater system, i.e., TV, Blu-ray player, mini Android PC, and Xbox so media via the network is not that big of a deal. However, if there is ever a need to update firmware or install enhancements, etc. I wouldn't be able to do it. That is my real concern.
post #17762 of 18963
Hi,

Is the DAC the same for optical as hdmi?

I have the 1912 and I love it.

Recently I got into computer audio and seems using an outboard DAC is very common. But, running optical from my Mac mini directly to my AVR sounds golden to me. (Using BitPerfect with iTunes and lossless files)
post #17763 of 18963
Thread Starter 
The DAC is the DAC. It doesn't matter what the signal path is. All the processing is in the digital domain. The LAST step in the chain is the digital signal passes through the DAC before being sent to the amplifier section. So it doesn't matter what input you use.
post #17764 of 18963
Thanks,... I think the AVR DAC is fine..... smile.gif
post #17765 of 18963
*Direct: With vs. Without Sub On.*

I use Direct mode when I play CDs with my Oppo, letting it's superior processor handle the audio conversion. But in the Denon, I notice if I turn on the Subwoofer, the display still says 'Direct.'

My question is, when I turn on the subwoofer, does the Denon just extract and process the sub, leaving the L/R processing to the Oppo, or is the display inaccurate and the Denon is now processing all three speakers?
post #17766 of 18963
^^ If you are using a digital connection, the Oppo doesn't do any processing. With CDs, it simply sends the PCM to the Denon. What do you mean when you say you are letting the Oppo's "superior processor handle the audio conversion"?
post #17767 of 18963
I should have clarified (so much for assumptions). I am using analog out from the Oppo into the Denon.
post #17768 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglenn View Post

*Direct: With vs. Without Sub On.*

I use Direct mode when I play CDs with my Oppo, letting it's superior processor handle the audio conversion. But in the Denon, I notice if I turn on the Subwoofer, the display still says 'Direct.'

My question is, when I turn on the subwoofer, does the Denon just extract and process the sub, leaving the L/R processing to the Oppo, or is the display inaccurate and the Denon is now processing all three speakers?

The only way to engage the subwoofer in DIRECT mode with a 2.0 signal is to set the sub to LFE+Main, however, DIRECT mode is still enabled (ie. no Audyssey).
post #17769 of 18963
Actually, I just press the channel level button on the remote then select sub>on.

But I'm not talking about Audessey, I'm talking DACs. I am asking if, in direct mode, when I turn on the sub via the channel level button, does that cause the Denon's DAC to process the left and right channel too? Or does the Oppo's DAC(s) still process the L/R?
post #17770 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglenn View Post


But I'm not talking about Audessey, I'm talking DACs. I am asking if, in direct mode, when I turn on the sub via the channel level button, does that cause the Denon's DAC to process the left and right channel too? Or does the Oppo's DAC(s) still process the L/R?

Digital-to-Analog Converter - If you are sending the signal as analog why would the Denon's DAC even be a consideration.
post #17771 of 18963
cglenn - Are you using the stereo or multichannel analog inputs?

With MCH, the player handles bass management and produces the output for the sub. The Denon can only adjust levels. So, all processing is done in the Oppo. If you are doing bass management in the player and using MCH analog, then activating the sub by simply turning up the volume does not involve any processing by the Denon. But, if you leave the sub off in that scenario, then you have no low frequencies at all since the player sent them to the sub output, which you have turned all the way down. Nothing below the Oppo's crossover will be in the L/R channels.

With stereo, there's no sub output from the player, of course. In order to activate the sub, the Denon has to re-digitize the analog stereo input and do the bass management itself. That pretty much undoes the Oppo's processing.
Edited by BIslander - 4/28/13 at 7:06pm
post #17772 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

cglenn - Are you using the stereo or multichannel analog inputs?

With stereo, there's no sub output from the player, of course. In order to activate the sub, the Denon has to re-digitize the analog stereo input and do the bass management itself. That pretty much undoes the Oppo's processing.

Thank-you, this is what I was getting at. I wasn't sure what the Denon had to do to produce the sub output. Since the Denon still displays 'Direct,' I wasn't sure.
post #17773 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglenn View Post

Thank-you, this is what I was getting at. I wasn't sure what the Denon had to do to produce the sub output. Since the Denon still displays 'Direct,' I wasn't sure.

I believe jdsmoothie already answered that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The only way to engage the subwoofer in DIRECT mode with a 2.0 signal is to set the sub to LFE+Main, however, DIRECT mode is still enabled (ie. no Audyssey).
post #17774 of 18963
^
My last comment was not a question, it was an explanation about why I was confused.

But your quote of jdsmoothie now has me a little re-confused. It appears that either sub setting (LFE+Main or LFE) in direct mode does not turn on the sub, so it does not apply to my situation. Or am I mis-understanding something?
post #17775 of 18963
Thread Starter 
The LFE+MAIN settings is required to be on to hear the sub in DIRECT mode. There is also a parameter setting for Sub ON/OFF in DIRECT mode (as you have found) but it won't work without LFE+MAIN already enabled. This is specifically noted in the manual:




Also be aware of the special "2CH Direct/Stereo" menu which can override the basic bass management settings if enabled in "Custom" mode. So you may not have LFE+MAIN set in the general bass menu but it could be enabled in the custom 2ch menu.

I don't think it's set in stone that the analog input is redigitized in DIRECT mode when you enable the sub. It's possible that there is a simple analog sum fed to the Sub Out, or perhaps the signal is digitized to produce the sub signal but the L/R analog signal remains "pure". Regardless, I don't think it's a question that we can answer definitively.

Why don't you do a test? Put on some good critical "test" material for 2ch audio from the Oppo. Unplug the subwoofer so you are just hearing the L/R audio signal. Now toggle the subwoofer On/Off in DIRECT mode. If your potential concern is an issue, then you will hear a difference when the sub is activated because now the Denon is "digitizing" the signal to do processing and undoing all of that magical DAC goodness from the Oppo. If you can't hear a difference, stop worrying about it and move on with your life wink.gif

The difference between DAC's is hugely overrated, I am betting that you don't hear a difference.
post #17776 of 18963
Thank-you batpig for your input. I tested as you suggested, but I don't have a partner to help me perform a blind test. Given that, but not having an expectation either way, I do hear more detail with the sub off, so my uneducated guess is that when the sub is engaged, the Denon processes the L/R as well, even in Direct mode. I purchased a pair of AudioQuest Diamondback connectors for the Oppo-to-CD input, so possibly the difference is a little more pronounced than if it were a less capable cable.

If others with more discerning ears want to do this test as well, I would look forward to hearing your impressions. The best way would be for the listener to close it's eyes and have another person toggle the sub on/off so as to cancel any self-fulfilling prophesy (i.e., expectations).
post #17777 of 18963
I own an older Denon, but a quick look at the 2312 manual suggests that bass management is performed even when the listening mode is set to Direct. This is easy enough to test by yourself. Get a calibration disc with bass sweeps. Set the Denon to Direct, the front speakers to Small, the SW to LFE and On, and play the sweeps for the front two channels. If lower frequencies get routed to the sub, then the Denon is doing bass management. If frequencies below the crossover are not re-routed to the sub and you hear them in the main channels, then bass management is not being performed. If that test shows no bass management, try changing the SW Mode to LFE+Main and see what you get. The footnote for Direct in the Surround Parameters table on p131 of the 2312 manual says the sub will only be heard with stereo sources when Mode = LFE+Main.
Edited by BIslander - 4/29/13 at 1:12pm
post #17778 of 18963
Thread Starter 
What in the manual suggests that bass management is performed in DIRECT mode? That last footnote you cite -- "the sub will only be heard with stereo sources when Mode = LFE+Main" -- indicates otherwise.

Double bass (copying of bass frequencies) is not the same thing as true bass management (redirection of bass frequencies below a crossover).

BTW -- I and others have already performed these tests. There is no bass management in DIRECT modes.
post #17779 of 18963
There's a whole section for 2ch Direct/Stereo that involves speaker sizes and crossovers. From your post, I gather that use of 2ch Direct is not the same as the Listening Mode Direct. And, since the tests for bass management when set to Direct have already been done and establish BM does not happen, then the OP's question has been answered.

But, I am unclear how he is getting a subwoofer output at all with a stereo input and the Direct Listening Mode. He must have set his fronts to Large and the SW Mode to LFE+Main, which is rarely a good idea and, presumably, means the Denon is digitizing the analog stereo inputs in order to duplicate frequencies below the crossover to the sub. Or, are yopu saying the Denon may actually do double bass without digitizing?
post #17780 of 18963
Thread Starter 
Quote:
There's a whole section for 2ch Direct/Stereo that involves speaker sizes and crossovers. From your post, I gather that use of 2ch Direct is not the same as the Listening Mode Direct

You gather wrong smile.gif This special sub-menu allows for special 2ch settings but it's not a different thing than DIRECT mode. The settings will apply when using STEREO mode or DIRECT mode with 2ch content, although the way the settings apply will differ in DIRECT mode because of the bass management differences noted already. Either way, DIRECT mode is DIRECT mode.

Quote:
And, since the tests for bass management when set to Direct have already been done and establish BM does not happen, then the OP's question has been answered.

Not necessarily, the question is fundamentally whether engaging the sub in DIRECT mode results in the digitizing of the analog stereo input, thus obviating any advantage (theoretical or real) of the Oppo's DAC's.

Quote:
But, I am unclear how he is getting a subwoofer output at all with a stereo input and the Direct Listening Mode. He must have set his fronts to Large and the SW Mode to LFE+Main

Correct, LFE+MAIN allows for subwoofer output in DIRECT mode by copying double bass" to the sub channel. The Large/Small aspect is irrelevant because in DIRECT mode there is no bass management, i.e., all speakers are effectively treated as "Large" (full range).

Quote:
and, presumably, means the Denon is digitizing the analog stereo inputs in order to duplicate frequencies below the crossover to the sub. Or, are yopu saying the Denon may actually do double bass without digitizing?

That's the open question. It's POSSIBLE that the copying of the double bass can be done without digitizing the analog stereo path for the L/R channels. I don't think anyone really knows the answer though.
post #17781 of 18963
??

Try this: the input is analog stereo and the Listening Mode = Direct. In the 2ch Direct/Stereo settings, I choose Front = Small, SW = Yes, and Crossover = 80Hz. Does anything go to the sub? I would assume not, since Direct means no bass management. In fact, it seems like the only settings in the 2ch Direct/Stereo area that could have any effect when the Listening Mode = Direct would be the combination of SW = Yes and SW Mode = LFE+Main.
post #17782 of 18963
Thread Starter 
Quote:
it seems like the only settings in the 2ch Direct/Stereo area that could have any effect when the Listening Mode = Direct would be the combination of SW = Yes and SW Mode = LFE+Main.

This is correct.
post #17783 of 18963
Master Batpig:

I own a Denon 2112 CI which sounds great. However, even though I have the Start HDMI set at the Cable Box HDMI, it always turns on at the TV and I have to press the Cable button in order to have signal. Is this normal or an issue?

Thank you very much for your time and patience.

Best regards.
post #17784 of 18963
Thread Starter 
I'm a little confused. I don't know what "Start HDMI" means, there is no such setting as "Start HDMI" that I'm aware of.

And what do you mean by "it always turns on at the TV". Do you mean the TV turns on?

If you mean that the input on the receiver is automatically switching to "TV" when it turns on, that is caused by the HDMI-CEC in your display controlling the receiver. I'm assuming you have a Samsung display? In that case it's caused by the Anynet+ setting.
post #17785 of 18963
Is there any type of Denon "Zone Matrix" chart floating around in existence, to use as a reference for myself or noobs? I've looked in the manual and have seen the Surround Mode matrix, and some audio and video matrices, but I'm wondering if there is one already around, or if some of you more advanced users would be willing to create one?

It would be a chart to display info pertaining to what AUDIO can be played (i.e. sources) on Zones Main/2/3 simultaneously, and include the necessary asterisks ( * ) for workarounds like using an AppleTV Optical connection to play PCM 2.0 to Zone 2/3 while still watching/listening to an HDMI source on the Main Zone.

I just thought that it would be a handy little guide to reference for planning our system growth and troubleshooting Denon Zone questions.
post #17786 of 18963
Thread Starter 
No such matrix exists, but the various Zone limitations are well covered at the beginning of each respective owner's thread.

All "legal" Zone signals can be played either independently or simultaneously with the Main Zone, with the sole exception of Airplay and its own unique set of limitations.
post #17787 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dru the Fu View Post

Is there any type of Denon "Zone Matrix" chart floating around in existence, to use as a reference for myself or noobs? I've looked in the manual and have seen the Surround Mode matrix, and some audio and video matrices, but I'm wondering if there is one already around, or if some of you more advanced users would be willing to create one?

It would be a chart to display info pertaining to what AUDIO can be played (i.e. sources) on Zones Main/2/3 simultaneously, and include the necessary asterisks ( * ) for workarounds like using an AppleTV Optical connection to play PCM 2.0 to Zone 2/3 while still watching/listening to an HDMI source on the Main Zone.

I just thought that it would be a handy little guide to reference for planning our system growth and troubleshooting Denon Zone questions.

Refer to post #3 of this thread ... especially noting the section on Zone 2. smile.gif
post #17788 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhattan View Post

Master Batpig:

I own a Denon 2112 CI which sounds great. However, even though I have the Start HDMI set at the Cable Box HDMI, it always turns on at the TV and I have to press the Cable button in order to have signal. Is this normal or an issue?

Thank you very much for your time and patience.

Best regards.

Set the the "HDMI Control" setting on the AVR to ON.
post #17789 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm a little confused. I don't know what "Start HDMI" means, there is no such setting as "Start HDMI" that I'm aware of.

And what do you mean by "it always turns on at the TV". Do you mean the TV turns on?

If you mean that the input on the receiver is automatically switching to "TV" when it turns on, that is caused by the HDMI-CEC in your display controlling the receiver. I'm assuming you have a Samsung display? In that case it's caused by the Anynet+ setting.
post #17790 of 18963
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm a little confused. I don't know what "Start HDMI" means, there is no such setting as "Start HDMI" that I'm aware of.

And what do you mean by "it always turns on at the TV". Do you mean the TV turns on?

If you mean that the input on the receiver is automatically switching to "TV" when it turns on, that is caused by the HDMI-CEC in your display controlling the receiver. I'm assuming you have a Samsung display? In that case it's caused by the Anynet+ setting.

I meant the Standby Source is set to Cable but when I turn on the Reciever it switches to Tv source, forcing me to switch it on the contro to cable again. I have an LG lcd tv.

Thanks.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread