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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 63

post #1861 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


"At that point, if the TV is powered on or off, it will reactivate the CEC communication and the 2112 will then switch to it's default "TV" source. The work around for this, as you found out, is to disable the CEC function of the TV."

As indicated in the above quote, the Denon rep also noted that if the TV is cycled ON/OFF it would reset the default to TV and result in the issue that kyxapka is talking about ... which is, by setting HDMI-CEC to ON it sets the AVR's startup source to TV and then restricts output from any other source to include the Standby HDMI source (eg. cable/sat box). Although the Denon rep who responded was likely Ean, who is reliable, I'm still waiting on the final word from Denon as to whether this issue is resolvable or not.

If there are any XX11/X91 owner's reading this with HDMI 1.4 TVs w/ARC it would be interesting to see if the same issue results with those models as I don't recall this issue being raised in any of those threads.

JD isn't the signal coming from the TV so I would expect this exact behavior? In other words the TV being cycled is sending some form of request to the AVR saying hey imready to do something..
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post #1862 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
right, but the point is that the AVR is in STANDBY, in which case it should be passing through the HDMI signal from an "external" source and not receiving a signal backstream from the TV.
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post #1863 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:39am
Correct .. which is why the AVR when turned ON defaults to the TV source when ARC is set to ON. However, logic would dictate that when the AVR is in Standby mode, and HDMI Control is set to ON, that the AVR would default to the Standby Source. Now whether Denon can (or wants to) fix this with a firmware update still remains to be seen.
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post #1864 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

right, but the point is that the AVR is in STANDBY, in which case it should be passing through the HDMI signal from an "external" source and not receiving a signal backstream from the TV.

Ok. Is the AVR coming on when he turns the TV on or is it just ARC in action? In other words the TV telling the AVR to wake up because I have some info to send..NET: I can't use standby passthrough and ARC simultaneous they seem to counter each other..

If I recall in my pioneer I can set the TV to control downstream components but have the option of saying for this input don't control the Component.
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post #1865 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

gotcha -- we're on the same page now.

is there a major reason why the solution/workaround of turning HDMI-CEC off in the TV won't work for you? because it does work correctly when you do so, right?

Al'right. I am glad we can move on.
Disabling TV's HDMI-CEC will disable ARC. If ARC is disabled TV streaming options are useless. I would assume this will affect not just Samsung TV users, but any TV with SmartTV function. So, while I may sound crazy to some people, this should be a concern to Denon. You cannot target SmartTV market if SmartTV function is useless due to design flaw in AVR.
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post #1866 of 18069
6/23/11 at 11:56am
Although I agree with you ... Denon's goal likely isn't targeting Smart TV owner's especially as the ARC feature is easily replicated with an optical cable from the TV just as HDMI 1.3 TV owner's must continue to do.
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post #1867 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Ok. Is the AVR coming on when he turns the TV on or is it just ARC in action?

no, the AVR stays in Standby. But the passthrough works for a split-second and then blanks out.

in other words:

- AVR is on, everything is hunky dory
- AVR powers off, HDMI signal keeps flowing through while AVR is in standby
- Turn the TV off, go to bed for the night

the next morning, you should be able to turn the TV on without powering up the AVR, and still take advantage of standby passthrough. But (assuming I understand correctly) what is happening is that the passthrough works for a moment, and then blanks out. The AVR is still in Standby the whole time. ARC shouldn't have any impact at all because the AVR isn't turned on.

the bottom line here is that HDMI-CEC is a giant sh!t-show, poorly designed and implemented, which falls apart once systems get more complex (e.g. an AVR and multiple components). it's great if you own a Samsung TV and a Samsung Blu-ray player, and the wife turns on the BDP and the TV goes to the right input and you only have to use one remote to control everything so no confusion.... but for a more complicated setup, get a good universal remote to run the show and turn that crap off!!

cable box connected to TV directly with HDMI + Harmony Remote = zero problems
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post #1868 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

... get a good universal remote to run the show and turn that crap off!!

+1, totally agree with you.
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post #1869 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyxapka View Post


Al'right. I am glad we can move on.
Disabling TV's HDMI-CEC will disable ARC. If ARC is disabled TV streaming options are useless. I would assume this will affect not just Samsung TV users, but any TV with SmartTV function. So, while I may sound crazy to some people, this should be a concern to Denon. You cannot target SmartTV market if SmartTV function is useless due to design flaw in AVR.

This must be a samsung only thing. I just ran a test using my panasonic GT25 and can confirm that when the 2112 is in standby and I use only the TV I am getting to my GT25 the last source as Used/selected in the AVR. In other words what I physically had the AVR set to. I checked to be sure both blu and FIOS worked and both times the TV showed and played audio of the last source the AVR was set to.

I then turned the GT25 to vieracast and ran pandora and turned the AVR on and it immediately switched to the default TV input to play the sound of pandora. I then exited pandora and put the TV on and AVR on as well and it went automatically to last standby source or in this case FIOS.

So, In my case both are working as designed and as I would expect. To play the interactive features of my TV the 2112 defaulted to TV to leverage ARC and the last standby source was passed every time when using TV speakers. Am I missing something?

My HDMI setup of AVR is
HDMI out - AMP
HDMI control - ON
STandby Source - last
P.Off Control - off
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post #1870 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the bottom line here is that HDMI-CEC is a giant sh!t-show, poorly designed and implemented, which falls apart once systems get more complex (e.g. an AVR and multiple components). it's great if you own a Samsung TV and a Samsung Blu-ray player, and the wife turns on the BDP and the TV goes to the right input and you only have to use one remote to control everything so no confusion.... but for a more complicated setup, get a good universal remote to run the show and turn that crap off!!

a signature worthy mini-rant...

well said bp...

it's a bad idea, with too many grey areas in the "standard", and provides almost no benefit, unless the user considers multiple headaches a "benefit"...

whereas a well programmed universal remote control is foolproof...
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post #1871 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


no, the AVR stays in Standby. But the passthrough works for a split-second and then blanks out.

in other words:

- AVR is on, everything is hunky dory
- AVR powers off, HDMI signal keeps flowing through while AVR is in standby
- Turn the TV off, go to bed for the night

the next morning, you should be able to turn the TV on without powering up the AVR, and still take advantage of standby passthrough. But (assuming I understand correctly) what is happening is that the passthrough works for a moment, and then blanks out. The AVR is still in Standby the whole time. ARC shouldn't have any impact at all because the AVR isn't turned on.

the bottom line here is that HDMI-CEC is a giant sh!t-show, poorly designed and implemented, which falls apart once systems get more complex (e.g. an AVR and multiple components). it's great if you own a Samsung TV and a Samsung Blu-ray player, and the wife turns on the BDP and the TV goes to the right input and you only have to use one remote to control everything so no confusion.... but for a more complicated setup, get a good universal remote to run the show and turn that crap off!!

cable box connected to TV directly with HDMI + Harmony Remote = zero problems

See my info..I don't buy it's a AVR thing. It sounds like the samsung is doing something funky. If I could rip my Unc6500 off wall without the wife noticing I could confirm but she would wonder what happened..
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post #1872 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

I then turned the GT25 to vieracast and ran pandora and turned the AVR on and it immediately switched to the default TV input to play the sound of pandora. I then exited pandora and put the TV on and AVR on as well and it went automatically to last standby source or in this case FIOS.

Think you missed a step (or else didn't mention it) ... after playing Pandora via VierraCast through the AVR, turn the AVR to Standby, then turn the TV OFF, then turn the TV back ON again, and see if the last source passes through the AVR while still in Standby.
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post #1873 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


Think you missed a step (or else didn't mention it) ... after playing Pandora via VierraCast through the AVR, turn the AVR to Standby, then turn the TV OFF, then turn the TV back ON again, and see if the last source passes through the AVR while still in Standby.

When I turn the TV back on I get last source of FIOS DVR with the AVR in standby. Pandora is no longer playing.

Edit:I also get last source of FIOS DVR when I turn the AVR back on..
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post #1874 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:46pm
So then perhaps it is just a Sammy thing. Any other TV brand owners want to chime in with their own results?
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post #1875 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

See my info..I don't buy it's a AVR thing. It sounds like the samsung is doing something funky.

I agree, I'm not blaming the AVR, but more broadly HDMI-CEC and more specifically Anynet+ (i.e. Samsung's implementation). Anyone who has followed Denon threads over the past couple of years knows that BY FAR the majority of HDMI-CEC complaints are with Samsung displays:

1) HDMI passthrough not working properly
2) AVR magically input switching to the "TV" input
3) double volume displays on screen
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post #1876 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:56pm
SmartTV is starting to explode just now. So, it’s all possible dealing with it wasn’t their priority. And yes, every manufacturer’s interpretation what’s best for the customer when CEC is On is annoying. However, A/V manufacturers should rethink always “default to TV” since HDMI switching is shifting from TV to A/V receivers. There definitely should be a setting that would give user an option what port to default to during start up. TV is just a monitor today. So there is no reason for signal to flow from TV to AVR at start up. Most users probably switch to cable/sat, blu ray or gaming console as soon as AVR is on.
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post #1877 of 18069
6/23/11 at 12:59pm
I sent the following email to Denon Support:

Quote:
I am using a DLNA media server to my Denon 2112ci. While navigating through the library, how can I do a "play all" at a certain level? For example, I might want to "play all" at the Led Zeppelin level, so that all albums play. Normally the "play" button is used for most networked media players, but the play button doesn't do anything unless you've navigated all the way down to a file.

Today I received the following response:

Quote:
Hello, Chris

To do the Vol control function you are looking for. You need to set the Library you want then, set the Vol, and hold down Quick Select. Page 84 in the manually. This will allow you to choose the Library then hit Quick Select and it will change the Vol. Have you trued using the Enter button instead of the Play Buttton.
If you keep having this issue please call us when you are by the unit so one of our tachs can talk you through the steps

Product Operational Support hours of operation:
9:00 AM to 8:00 PM ET, M-F

I... I don't even know what to make of this response. He tried to help, but I can't make any sense of this. I looked on page 84 of the manual and it doesn't look to be related to my question at all.

Sigh.
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post #1878 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:09pm
I have a Samsung TV and Blu Ray player and when you turn the BDP off with Anynet on the TV defaults to the "TV" setting...even if nothing is connected there. Like everyone else on Earth, I use a cable box so the "TV" setting is just a fuzzy screen. I'd bet its communicating to the AVR and telling it to do the same.
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post #1879 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post

I... I don't even know what to make of this response. He tried to help, but I can't make any sense of this. I looked on page 84 of the manual and it doesn't look to be related to my question at all.

Sigh.

Sorry .. no clue here as well to that response. I'd give them a call. Please post back though of your results and the proper steps to take if possible. Thanks.
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post #1880 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:24pm
I just bought a 3312CI =D
The tricky thing is i will pick it up when i fly down to Nevada from Toronto next month. I wonder if they would let me carry something like this onboard the plane? The UPS tracking indicates that its 29 lbs :O
I'm not sure i would trust the baggage handlers.. Has anyone done something like this before?
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post #1881 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:39pm
I called around for the latest pricing for 2112, looking for a deal..
ABT- $549 ( i think free ship)
J&R - $500 + tax (free ship)
EE -$649 (guy said Denon laid the hammer down)
Vanns- $499 (free ship, no tax)

not sure if I should pull trigger on vanns or wait a bit... anybody get anything better lately?
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post #1882 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:43pm
With the recent MSRP increase to $650 ... that's likely as good as it's going to get.
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post #1883 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:44pm
^^
If the size of the box complies with carry-on regulations then you should not have a problem. But don’t be surprised for extra interest to your persona from TSA.
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post #1884 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemtnn
I called around for the latest pricing for 2112, looking for a deal..
ABT- $549 ( i think free ship)
J&R - $500 + tax (free ship)
EE -$649 (guy said Denon laid the hammer down)
Vanns- $499 (free ship, no tax)

not sure if I should pull trigger on vanns or wait a bit... anybody get anything better lately?
Is onecall giving decent prices these days? When I bought my mitsubishi 82838 last year they were willing to deal.
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post #1885 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:45pm
Abe's of Maine is running a deal if anyone is interested..
AVR1312 $189 shipped
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post #1886 of 18069
6/23/11 at 1:51pm
^^
Couple things .. first off .. Abes of Maine is NOT an authorized reseller ... so no valid warranty ... and second ... as batpig implies in post #2 .. unless the AVR is going in the kids room, the 1612 is the lowest level model that should be considered.
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post #1887 of 18069
6/23/11 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyxapka
SmartTV is starting to explode just now. So, it's all possible dealing with it wasn't their priority. And yes, every manufacturer's interpretation what's best for the customer when CEC is On is annoying. However, A/V manufacturers should rethink always "default to TV" since HDMI switching is shifting from TV to A/V receivers. There definitely should be a setting that would give user an option what port to default to during start up. TV is just a monitor today. So there is no reason for signal to flow from TV to AVR at start up. Most users probably switch to cable/sat, blu ray or gaming console as soon as AVR is on.
Your assertions still doesn't make sense. The only time the Denon AVR defaults to TV for me is when i want to use the ARC functionality to play the sound out of the TV to the AVR (this seems like nothing more than a routing path/switch for devices connected direct to theTV). They have to default to something and that something is the HDMI port connected or labeled TV. I see that TV as nothing more than a label for the particular HDMI port Denon has chosen.

The question your mixing is standby. In this case Denon provides the ability from standby to set a default source designation to be routed out to a connected device. I can pick any specific HDMI source or set it so the last source I was using is transmitted. In every case I have tried my display plays the correct audio/ video source I last chose. I can power off the set come back to Tv only and the expected standby source is on the Tv.

As BP correctly pointed out this seems like a issue of HDMI implemented in your smart tv. Perhaps a all to samsung is in order maybe they have a Fw update for the set which would resolve the issue of blank screen you describe. Sounds eerily like handshaking..
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post #1888 of 18069
6/23/11 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplearms
I just bought a 3312CI =D
The tricky thing is i will pick it up when i fly down to Nevada from Toronto next month. I wonder if they would let me carry something like this onboard the plane? The UPS tracking indicates that its 29 lbs :O
I'm not sure i would trust the baggage handlers.. Has anyone done something like this before?
I have seen folks bring AVRs on planes several times. They may have you fill out a declaration form and I'm not sure about Canada taxes..
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post #1889 of 18069
6/23/11 at 2:37pm
Finally got my receiver running (held up because of my switch/router problem) and I must say, THIS THING IS SWEET!!!! The sales person was not joking when he said I would see a night and day difference between the 2112ci and my 15+ year old Sony. I watched a SD dvd and some Pandora and the thing sounds amazing! The coolest part is that I haven't even ran audyssey yet! Love the layout and the controller. Not a single issue yet (holding my breath!!!!)
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post #1890 of 18069
6/23/11 at 2:38pm
Just placed an order from Onecall on the 2112ci for $499. I was also able to apply a $100 credit that was on my account (LG le8500 price match from last year) and snagged the 2112 for a total of $399. Excellent price for me

Have already ordered the Energy Take Classic 5.1 set as well as all necessary cables and wiring from monoprice.

Now I play the waiting game

Will post pictures, questions, advice as all of it arrives in the coming days!
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread