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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 109

post #3241 of 17917
7/24/11 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovro View Post
Took 3 attempts, but update is installing now on the 2312...

ETHER SBL? lol

Am still not convinced that 2312 doesn't degrade passthru video a bit, or perhaps the ABT chip in the Pio1021k I had previously just did a better job upscaling, overall. I have actually had what appear to be interlacing errors while gaming 1080p on xbox360. Still not sure how that is possible 1080p-)1080p...
Turn down the sharpness option in the AVR's video scaler menu. You can't have interlacing errors on a signal that's natively deinterlaced.
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post #3242 of 17917
7/24/11 at 6:28pm
I upgraded my 2112ci yesterday to the latest (7/23/11) firmware. Since the upgrade Airplay no longer is detected by our iPhone, iPad, or Macbook. Airplay had been working fine since we got the 2112ci in mid june.

Is anyone aware of how to "reboot" the airplay server in the 2112ci? Or is there a hidden setting in the menus? I've yet to find anything referencing Airplay in the menus. It always simply showed up on our airplay compatible devices.

Thx
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post #3243 of 17917
7/24/11 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by santakrooz View Post
I upgraded my 2112ci yesterday to the latest (7/23/11) firmware. Since the upgrade Airplay no longer is detected by our iPhone, iPad, or Macbook. Airplay had been working fine since we got the 2112ci in mid june.

Is anyone aware of how to "reboot" the airplay server in the 2112ci? Or is there a hidden setting in the menus? I've yet to find anything referencing Airplay in the menus. It always simply showed up on our airplay compatible devices.

Thx
Do a hard reset of the iPhone. Press and hold the Home and Sleep button until the Power Off slider appears and keep holding them until the device turns off completely. Then power the phone back up.
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post #3244 of 17917
7/24/11 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by santakrooz View Post
I upgraded my 2112ci yesterday to the latest (7/23/11) firmware. Since the upgrade Airplay no longer is detected by our iPhone, iPad, or Macbook. Airplay had been working fine since we got the 2112ci in mid june.

Is anyone aware of how to "reboot" the airplay server in the 2112ci? Or is there a hidden setting in the menus? I've yet to find anything referencing Airplay in the menus. It always simply showed up on our airplay compatible devices.
Problem solved by unplugging the receiver from the wall, then plugging back in. Stdby/On toggle doesn't reset the server I guess.
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post #3245 of 17917
7/24/11 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyclave View Post
Do a hard reset of the iPhone. Press and hold the Home and Sleep button until the Power Off slider appears and keep holding them until the device turns off completely. Then power the phone back up.
Tried that, but still didn't show up on any of the devices. What solved it ended up being full power off (pulling the plug) on the Receiver. It showed up almost immediately on all devices after plugging back in.

Thx
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post #3246 of 17917
7/24/11 at 7:51pm
What is better if you are forced to use some sort of processing?

Neo 6 Cinema

Prologic II Cinema
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post #3247 of 17917
7/24/11 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps24eva View Post

What is better if you are forced to use some sort of processing?

Neo 6 Cinema

Prologic II Cinema

Its really a preference thing..me i like the Neo 6 Cinema as it's a bit more refined.
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post #3248 of 17917
7/24/11 at 10:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSXer View Post

I simply pressed Movie on the remote and there is a WORLD of a difference. I mean MIND BLOWING difference!

that is because you are now hearing the full MultEQ + Dynamic EQ experience


Quote:


I have to make a correct to my initial post. When I am watching a bluray (PCM) is present but when I am watching digital cable (PCM) is absent. From what I understand from you above post (PCM) = 2 chan?

not necessarily, PCM can be 2ch or multichannel, just like any other signal. Cable boxes, however, cannot output multichannel PCM, which is generally only found on hi-rez sources like PS3 or Blu-rays. That is why I assumed you were getting a 2ch signal, because if a cable box is sending PCM it's guaranteed to be 2ch.

if you haven't yet, please read through the Audio section of my FAQ as I do explain what PCM is: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#audio

Quote:


When I press Movie it gives me the option of stereo/dolby PLII Cinema/Dolby Pro logic/DTS NEO:6 cinema/Multi CH Stereo/MONO movie/virtual. Can you guide me to where I can read what the differences are or can u please explain/recommend one to use?

OK, now THIS is the definite sign that you are actually only getting a 2ch input, and the receiver is simulating surround sound. All of these modes -- Dolby Pro Logic and Pro Logic II (PLII), DTS Neo, etc -- are ways of turning a stereo signal into surround sound.

Something is configured incorrectly with your source, you need to make sure your Blu-ray player is set up to output multichannel audio. Again, please read through the audio section of my FAQ, as it's important to learn how to check the input signal in the GUI to confirm what you are getting. The receiver can only play what it's given, so if you aren't getting the right audio then the SOURCE needs to be checked.

(also please read the next post for more info on surround modes)
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post #3249 of 17917
7/24/11 at 10:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razal View Post

So, the 2112ci comes with a variety of "sound options" that don't mean a hill of beans to me.

I use my Receiver for TV, Movies (Blu-Ray, regular DVD and off my DVR) and music. I recently purchased the Avatar DVD and it offers some different audio options, but I have no idea which is "best" (if there is a such a thing) or in which mode I should be listening.

Here is what the website lists as all of the modes. Some of the differences are obvious, some, not so much.


1. Dolby Pro Logic IIz - with Cinema, Music, Game Modes

2. Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital+ Decoding

3. Dolby Digital Surround EX Decoding

4. DTS-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Decoding

5. DTS ES Discrete 6.1 Decoding

6. DTS ES Matrix 6.1 Decoding

7. DTS Neo:6 Stereo-to-Surround Cinema and Music Mode

8. DTS 96/24 5.1 for DVD-Video Processing

9. Pure Direct/Direct/Stereo Modes on Digital/Analog inputs

10. Stereo/Direct Modes w/Pure Analog Path

11. Multi-Channel Stereo Mode

12. Video Game Mode

13. Mono Movie Surround Mode

14. Rock Arena Surround Mode

15. Matrix Surround Mode

16. Jazz Club Surround Mode


Like, if I have the choice between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HS Master, which do I choose and why? Why not Dolby Pro Logic IIz with Cinema for movies? What is with all the DTS modes???


It's easiest if you lump the different modes into "buckets":

Bucket 1) Surround modes for "native" surround sound: these are signals that are encoded in 5.1 (or 7.1) from the get go, so the receiver just has to decode the audio and play it. In this case, in the default "movie" mode the receiver will simply report the signal (e.g. DTS-HD MASTER).

There are basically 3 types of multichannel signal:

- Dolby encoded surround sound (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD)
- DTS encoded surround sound (DTS, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio)
- Multichannel PCM (raw multichannel audio that isn't encoded to save space)

Again, these are all "native" surround sound so there isn't much to choose, just let the receiver decode it and play it. You can't "choose" Dolby TrueHD if the Blu-ray is encoded in DTS-HD; they are mutually exclusive. The only reason you may need to make a choice is if you have a 7.1 setup and the signal is 5.1, in which case you can choose to "matrix" the extra 2 channels, and thus....

Bucket 2) Surround modes which "simulate" extra channels, with Dolby Digital and DTS both providing competing options (as they do with surround encoding). They will take a stereo signal up to 5.1, or even 7.1 (if you have back surrounds or front heights), or take a native 5.1 signal and mix two extra channels if you have a 7.1 setup.

- Dolby Pro Logic II and its variants ("x" for back surrounds, "z" for heights)
- DTS Neo

Bucket 3) Denon's proprietary "DSP Simulation" modes, which add fake reverb and ambience processing. These are things like Jazz Club, Rock Arena, Video Game, Mono Movie, etc. They are generally garbage, relics of the past, and the only one of these which you would typically ever use would be Multichannel Stereo, which broadcasts a stereo signal to all your speakers.

---------------

In general, the key is to learn to understand the relationship between the signal (Input) and your speaker setup (Output). If the signal is coming in as 5.1, and you have a 5.1 setup, just let it play as is. If the signal is coming in as stereo (2ch) and you have a 5.1 setup, you can choose to play it in stereo or simulate surround sound (e.g. using Pro Logic II Cinema for a 2ch movie). If the signal is 5.1, and you have a 7.1 setup, you can choose to play it in native 5.1, or use PLII or DTS Neo to matrix the 2 extra channels. And so on...
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post #3250 of 17917
7/24/11 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyclave View Post

Turn down the sharpness option in the AVR's video scaler menu. You can't have interlacing errors on a signal that's natively deinterlaced.

I did not think that it was possible, either - however I get intermittent horizontal bars when looking up/down too quickly - very much like what I once associated with interlacing errors while PC gaming back in the day

Still have the single off-line of rez dead center of the screen also, so I guess I just have a bad panel.

If I can get a replacement without hassle, I will give the sharpness adjustment a try. Broke down and ordered a replacement bulb for my JVC, so sometime midweek should hopefully be able to do side by side.
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post #3251 of 17917
7/25/11 at 12:32am
Have a 2112 that was working flawlessly for a week or so. Was attempting to add my VCR to one of the analog inputs when suddenly lost all gui. My monitor is fully functional and can play my stb with no problem via HDMI. My monitor is detecting an Hdmi signal from the Denon receiver but nothing is being displayed. Also worth noting that I am not getting any sort of video output from the AVR via any of the connected devices. I was able to force a firmware upgrade via the display screen but still no video or gui from the avr.

Any assistance is appreciated.

Rant: I've been very loyal to Denon over the years but my last two purchases have had me questioning why. A recent avr-1911 purchase resulted in it being sent to the service center for no apparent reason at all. I didnt make any changes to the setup that worked fine for several months.Somehow the hdmi board went bad. Took over a month and a half to get my receiver back and then it had issues shortly after I got it back. It wouldn't play Dolby digital and would only play PLII via hdmi no matter what the source. I found that when i removed the HDMI cable for the stb I'd get DD. I then found that when I changed the hdmi passthrough hdmi would work as expected and Audio would be in Dolby digital. I wasted many hours on that issue not to mention the weeks without a receiver. Still not sure why this undocumented fix works but crossing my fingers that it sticks. Now I have issues with my 2112...
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post #3252 of 17917
7/25/11 at 4:15am
^^
In most cases, such as this, the first action would be to unplug the AVR for 10 minutes and then turn back on again. If no joy, then reset the microprocessor as listed in your Owner's manual or in post #5 of this thread.
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post #3253 of 17917
7/25/11 at 7:22am
Thanks. I should note that I have left unplugged for 10 minutes, then an hour, then a day. No luck in each instance. Also tried the various resets with no luck.
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post #3254 of 17917
7/25/11 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by santakrooz View Post

Problem solved by unplugging the receiver from the wall, then plugging back in. Stdby/On toggle doesn't reset the server I guess.

Ran into exectly the same problem and had to do the same thing yesturday.
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post #3255 of 17917
7/25/11 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by santakrooz View Post

Stdby/On toggle doesn't reset the server I guess.

Correct. The AVR must be unplugged for a reset to occur which is why this is also recommended when a firmware update "hangs" when downloading.
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post #3256 of 17917
7/25/11 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by acalbear View Post

Thanks. I should note that I have left unplugged for 10 minutes, then an hour, then a day. No luck in each instance. Also tried the various resets with no luck.

If you have tried both the microprocessor and network resets (Post #5) with no success, check for local authorized repair facilities in your area (see Denon's website for locations). You might also try disconnecting all but one HDMI source and then do the "network" reset again.
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post #3257 of 17917
7/25/11 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In general, the key is to learn to understand the relationship between the signal (Input) and your speaker setup (Output). If the signal is coming in as 5.1, and you have a 5.1 setup, just let it play as is. If the signal is coming in as stereo (2ch) and you have a 5.1 setup, you can choose to play it in stereo or simulate surround sound (e.g. using Pro Logic II Cinema for a 2ch movie). If the signal is 5.1, and you have a 7.1 setup, you can choose to play it in native 5.1, or use PLII or DTS Neo to matrix the 2 extra channels. And so on...

Most of my watching/listening is done through my DirecTV HR20. I have a 5.1 system. I would like for 5.1 source material to be played (in Movie Mode) using Dolby Digital, and I would like for 2ch source material to be played in PLII Cinema. However, when I check, my 3312 almost always comes up showing 2ch material to be in DTS Neo:6. How can I force 2ch to be played in PLII Cinema (and, of course, be able to change it as needed)?
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post #3258 of 17917
7/25/11 at 1:50pm
^^
When 2CH stereo is playing, press the "Movie" button on your remote and select "DD PLII - Cinema" (p. 55).
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post #3259 of 17917
7/25/11 at 2:25pm
^^
Yeah, I do that, but it's a pain to have to do it every time. I'd like for it to default to DD PLII Cinema instead of Neo:6.
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post #3260 of 17917
7/25/11 at 2:28pm
You need only set it once.
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post #3261 of 17917
7/25/11 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You need only set it once.

^^
Hmm. Well, I know I've set it quite a few times. When I press Movie and the menu comes up, doesn't the fact that Neo:6 is highlighted indicate that it is the mode being used at the time? When it is highlighted, I move the cursor up to PLII Cinema, and it changes the sound, and the menu goes away (I don't see any "Press Enter" or such to overtly set it). But later, perhaps after the 3312 has been off and turned back on, when a 2ch source is playing, it's set, more often than not, back on Neo:6.
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post #3262 of 17917
7/25/11 at 3:52pm
^^
Then you're likely using a Quick Select button which must be rememorized after you change the surround mode to DD PLII - Cinema .... simply press/hold the QS button for a few seconds.
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post #3263 of 17917
7/25/11 at 4:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrh View Post

When I press Movie and the menu comes up, doesn't the fact that Neo:6 is highlighted indicate that it is the mode being used at the time?

Note that you can always check the current surround mode defaults in the INFORMATION section of the GUI, under "Auto Surround Mode".

There it will list what is currently "memorized" as the defaults. Unless you have manually turned Auto Surround off, it will always remember your preferences by input and signal type, unless, as JD notes, you are using a Quick Select. In this case, the QS memorized settings will be reloaded when you press that button, so if you change your preferences you need to re-memorize the QS.

If you do use the Quick Selects, you can also check the full list of memorized settings in the INFORMATION section under "Quick Select". You can verify there that your QS is memorized how you like it.

In short: the INFORMATION menu is your friend
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post #3264 of 17917
7/25/11 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post


Great to hear. So did you do just left, right, and center thru the Sony or all channels? Also, when you turn the Denon volume down low, leaving the Sony receiver fixed at 3/4 position, do you hear any low level hiss or other noise coming from your speakers?

When doing MultiEQ setup, did your front 3 speakers get trimmed way back relative to the others? Finally, is the overall system volume objectively louder at the point where the speakers begin to clip/sound harsh compared to the Denon only setup? Exactly where this happens on the physical volume control isn't as important to me but more interested that you achieved an additional 1-2 db overall system volume before clipping, or that it "sounds better/less distorted" at louder volumes vs the denon only setup due to the additional headroom.

Most folks may not hear a 1-2 db increase in system volume but some probably can hear a reduction in distortion at higher volumes that the additional headroom provides, which is really the driving force for the external amplification crowd. We don't want more volume, we want a cleaner high volume. :-)

Finally had some time to play with this over the weekend. Attached the preouts from my 3312 to the 7.1 multichannel in on my Sunfire Ultimate Receiver for the front left, right and center channels only, letting the Denon handle the surrounds. First level matched the three externally amplified speakers by changing volume knob on sunfire so they played at similar db at listening position when hooked up to secondary receiver as they did when hooked up directly to Denon. Then ran Audyssey for whole system which returned reasonable measurements.

Sounds great, but not much different, if at all, using secondary receiver as amp vs not including it. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference in a double blind test. The Sunfire is rated 200x7 and bench tests suggest it can do 200x3 at 0.1 THD (all at 8 ohm, roughly doubling into 4 ohm). The biggest benefit, however, is not worrying about putting the Denon into protect mode since my front left and right are 4 ohm which the Sunfire can handle. Have not noticed an increase in noise with this setup which was my greatest concern.

I'm not sophisticated enough to know if I'm getting all I can from the Sunfire with respect to where it enters clipping vs where the Denon would begin to clip. So either folks are right when they say there is not much audible difference between say 60w and 200w or again I have the gain structure messed up since I'm trying to repurpose an old flagship receiver to amplifier-only duty.

My understanding is that something like an Emotiva XPA-3 has a relatively high input sensitivity allowing it to achieve it's full rated output rather easily, whereas using a receiver as an amp the volume control becomes a continuously variable input sensitivity which I'm just not quite sure how to set properly.

Anyway, will keep fiddling, but glad to have the Denon finally relieved of it's 4 ohm duties in my setup.
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post #3265 of 17917
7/25/11 at 5:13pm
Going to order tonight probably. Any advice regarding dealers? I'm leaning between EE and ABT. I've bought from ABT via their website before and received the product in good condition. But I live closer to EE (Hudson river valley NY) so I expect the shipping time to be more palatable. Thoughts?
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post #3266 of 17917
7/25/11 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Note that you can always check the current surround mode defaults in the INFORMATION section of the GUI, under "Auto Surround Mode".

There it will list what is currently "memorized" as the defaults. Unless you have manually turned Auto Surround off, it will always remember your preferences by input and signal type, unless, as JD notes, you are using a Quick Select. In this case, the QS memorized settings will be reloaded when you press that button, so if you change your preferences you need to re-memorize the QS.

If you do use the Quick Selects, you can also check the full list of memorized settings in the INFORMATION section under "Quick Select". You can verify there that your QS is memorized how you like it.

In short: the INFORMATION menu is your friend

Thanks. I think I've got it all set up now.
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post #3267 of 17917
7/25/11 at 6:11pm
Just to update my previous post mentioning my loss of GUI functionality on my 2312ci after using Zone 2, I followed jdsmoothie's advice and did a microprocessor reset. Since then, I haven't had anymore problems with the GUI display after using Zone 2. Any other owners with GUI problems may want to try doing a reset as well to see if their problems go away like mine did, if they haven't done so already. Thanks jdsmoothie!
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post #3268 of 17917
7/25/11 at 7:29pm
2 questions



1) I previously owned a Yamaha Rx-v465, which was rated at 105w x 5 channels. The Denon 1912 is rated at 90w @ 7 channels. I will only be using 2 channels on 50w-200w rms speakers. Would the Denon be a downgrade in power from my previous yamaha?


2) If I am only using 2 channels with the 1912, what is the REAL wattage being put out?
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post #3269 of 17917
7/25/11 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's easiest if you lump the different modes into "buckets":

Bucket 1) Surround modes for "native" surround sound: these are signals that are encoded in 5.1 (or 7.1) from the get go, so the receiver just has to decode the audio and play it. In this case, in the default "movie" mode the receiver will simply report the signal (e.g. DTS-HD MASTER).

There are basically 3 types of multichannel signal:

- Dolby encoded surround sound (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD)
- DTS encoded surround sound (DTS, DTS-ES, DTS 96/24, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio)
- Multichannel PCM (raw multichannel audio that isn't encoded to save space)

Again, these are all "native" surround sound so there isn't much to choose, just let the receiver decode it and play it. You can't "choose" Dolby TrueHD if the Blu-ray is encoded in DTS-HD; they are mutually exclusive. The only reason you may need to make a choice is if you have a 7.1 setup and the signal is 5.1, in which case you can choose to "matrix" the extra 2 channels, and thus....

Bucket 2) Surround modes which "simulate" extra channels, with Dolby Digital and DTS both providing competing options (as they do with surround encoding). They will take a stereo signal up to 5.1, or even 7.1 (if you have back surrounds or front heights), or take a native 5.1 signal and mix two extra channels if you have a 7.1 setup.

- Dolby Pro Logic II and its variants ("x" for back surrounds, "z" for heights)
- DTS Neo

Bucket 3) Denon's proprietary "DSP Simulation" modes, which add fake reverb and ambience processing. These are things like Jazz Club, Rock Arena, Video Game, Mono Movie, etc. They are generally garbage, relics of the past, and the only one of these which you would typically ever use would be Multichannel Stereo, which broadcasts a stereo signal to all your speakers.

---------------

In general, the key is to learn to understand the relationship between the signal (Input) and your speaker setup (Output). If the signal is coming in as 5.1, and you have a 5.1 setup, just let it play as is. If the signal is coming in as stereo (2ch) and you have a 5.1 setup, you can choose to play it in stereo or simulate surround sound (e.g. using Pro Logic II Cinema for a 2ch movie). If the signal is 5.1, and you have a 7.1 setup, you can choose to play it in native 5.1, or use PLII or DTS Neo to matrix the 2 extra channels. And so on...

Awesome explanation. Thanks, it helped a lot.
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post #3270 of 17917
7/25/11 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Terrific View Post

Going to order tonight probably. Any advice regarding dealers? I'm leaning between EE and ABT. I've bought from ABT via their website before and received the product in good condition. But I live closer to EE (Hudson river valley NY) so I expect the shipping time to be more palatable. Thoughts?

Plenty of good retailers out there. Look for one that actually does not mind giving support and not just selling a product. Which unit are you looking at?
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