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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 189

post #5641 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

^^^ sim_c -- it is NOT an issue on your 1912, this magical input switching is caused by HDMI-CEC in the display. There is no solution besides turning it off, no setting on the Denon will "override" this CEC function because the display is the "master".

even if you could set a default ON source for the receiver, the TV would simply reach in and change it 5 seconds later. I am assuming you have a Samsung display?

Yes you're assuming correctly, Samsung B550
Indeed it does change 5 seconds later back to TV

So what's my solutions?
So Either i lose hdmi control, either i lose the default ON source??

I mean turning HDMI-CEC off on my samsung, will make me lose my ability to have it hdmi controlled off, right?
post #5642 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekjunkie28 View Post

It seems the sound quality is higher on an onkyo and with the onkyos on sale just about everwhere and all the time the choice gets rather one sided. But the denons sound warm... some like that, some don't. Personally I can't really tell a differnce but between a onkyo 1007 and a denon 2112ci my wife could tell a difference... she picked the onkyo. For music I like the denon sound but I like the onkyo for movies lol. If u can't pick one get a nad lol

Warm sound is often just a euphemism for high frequency rolloff. Denon is by default set to the Audyssey curve which rolls off highs, try Audyssey flat instead.
The Onkyo 1007 has a superior dac/amp, not surprised your wife picked it.
post #5643 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


a couple things here about joerod:

1) It is not accurate to say he is an "installer" or AV "professional", I'm pretty sure joerod is a simply a dedicated home enthusiast with a really awesome HT who likes to buy/try equipment and post his reviews. He certainly doesn't claim to be a professional installer anywhere on his website, and on his AVS profile he lists his occupation as "Sales Director". In other words: he is NOT a custom installer of AV gear, he is a just a nut like us but with apparently more enthusiasm, disposable income and time

2) I like joerod and enjoy his reviews but he is an unabashed Onkyo fan. He has tried a couple of Denons in his theater so he's not some drooling fanboy but if you have followed his posts/reviews for many years it's pretty obvious where his preferences lay. And please do not misunderstand me, there is NOTHING wrong with this, I am not bashing him for his tastes... but he has an obvious bias and it's going to color his statements. If you look at the list of AVR/pre reviews on his website, 19 out of 23 reviews are Onkyo products! So it's not surprising that he thinks the Onkyo is far ahead.

He is also a huge fan of THX processing, and prefers THX Loudness Plus to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. And since Onkyo offers this, while Denon doesn't worry about THX cert, that is going to be a big point in his ledger (but may not be in yours).

3) Furthermore, he is not doing "objective" reviews with tests and measurements, he is swapping equipment in/out and doing subjective listening tests and reporting his results. Let's be honest, while it is a valuable service to the AVS community, anyone who has followed his reviews knows there is no real attempt at "controls" in his evaluations, it's really just a collection of his experiences and subjective impressions as he swaps gear.

Again, nothing wrong with that, I like joerod and want to reiterate that there is no bashing here -- my point is that you should not ascribe more objective significance to his reviews than is warranted. He is just another enthusiast who happens to have tried a lot more gear than most of us. There are plenty of other well-heeled enthusiasts in the 4810ci or 4311ci threads who have tried flagship Onkyo products and prefer their Denons... and also some who are now using Pioneer or Yamaha.

The TRUTH of the matter is that the differences are actually pretty tiny: they are both solid, midrange products with the same processing "guts" with MultEQ XT + Dynamic EQ. Both should sound great, and when properly calibrated should sound virtually identical.

The decision should be made on essentially minor feature or preference differences. Maybe you like Onkyo's remote better? Maybe you like Denon's GUI better? The Denon has more sophisticated web control and some other aspects which are more customizable (e.g. better control of 12v trigger outs), the Onkyo has more intricate video features... the Onkyo has THX processing modes, the Denon doesn't...

In other words, one is not objectively better than the other, at least not in a universal sense where you can state the "winner" categorically. One may be better for YOU, depending on your needs. If you just want to compare spec sheets at a given price point, Onkyo will almost always win as their receiver strategy is to stuff "everything and the kitchen sink" into their receivers.

That's the best post I have ever read on any forum! Well said. Hopefully its taken to heart.
post #5644 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacci View Post

Greg,

technically the Onkyo 809 and Denon 3312 are quite similar. Being the highest model of a low/middle range, despite having more features it unfortunately means they share the same mediocre pre-amp stage as their lower end brethren.

Look at for example the Onkyo 809's DAC (BB PCM1690) vs. Denon AVR3312's DAC, they're almost identical in terms of Signal-to-Noise (SNR; 113db vs. 112).

But, the higher range Onkyo's (e.g. 3009) for example use 6x 123db SNR stereo DACs.

To see for myself if this makes a difference...

Good luck and let us know what you end up choosing!

Ahhh, ^this. I've been looking for some science beyond the product loyalty (not criticizing, it's a very subjective medium!) I really appreciate that information. Airplay is a positive selling point to me, as well, though I already have a new mac mini and a couple of spare airport expresses, so not sure this is too important to me.

I'm all sorts of tempted to get that 3009 knowing this, but I have to remember that for right now, I'm going from no receiver to having a receiver again! I'm probably going to be amazed just by having a home theater system for the first time in a couple of years.

I really appreciate the fact that you tried to be scientific in your approach.
post #5645 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

a couple things here about joerod:

...


The TRUTH of the matter is that the differences are actually pretty tiny: they are both solid, midrange products with the same processing "guts" with MultEQ XT + Dynamic EQ. Both should sound great, and when properly calibrated should sound virtually identical. ...

batpig, thank you for your post. This is why I posted. I wanted informative responses from those in the know. Not trolling or anything like that. You make excellent points. And I think your points are confirmed by my indecision. Both are highly regarded and loved by most of their owners and both are very close in performance and features.

I also respect your focusing attention on the importance of double-blind tests versus subjective listening.
post #5646 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekjunkie28 View Post

It seems the sound quality is higher on an onkyo and with the onkyos on sale just about everwhere and all the time the choice gets rather one sided. But the denons sound warm... some like that, some don't. Personally I can't really tell a differnce but between a onkyo 1007 and a denon 2112ci my wife could tell a difference... she picked the onkyo. For music I like the denon sound but I like the onkyo for movies lol. If u can't pick one get a nad lol

As of this moment I've actually ordered both, but since you-know-which-one is arriving tomorrow at $627, I'm not sure the other will succeed at almost twice the price!
post #5647 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacci View Post


Warm sound is often just a euphemism for high frequency rolloff. Denon is by default set to the Audyssey curve which rolls off highs, try Audyssey flat instead.
The Onkyo 1007 has a superior dac/amp, not surprised your wife picked it.

Yea she picked it but I couldn't tell a difference. So the denon has a high frequency rolloff, where can I find a graph for this? I'm guessing that the highs on the denons are a little less pronounced/detailed?
post #5648 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by sim_c View Post

So what's my solutions?
So Either i lose hdmi control, either i lose the default ON source??

I mean turning HDMI-CEC off on my samsung, will make me lose my ability to have it hdmi controlled off, right?

Turn Anynet+ to OFF when you're not using the ARC feature.
post #5649 of 18957
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekjunkie28 View Post

Yea she picked it but I couldn't tell a difference. So the denon has a high frequency rolloff, where can I find a graph for this? I'm guessing that the highs on the denons are a little less pronounced/detailed?

I think that is unlikely to actually be true. Both Denon and Onkyo use the same Audyssey system so will have the same high freq roll-off.

The only difference would be if you are using the MUSIC mode for Audyssey EQ on the Onkyo, which automatically engages the "flat" curve for Audyssey. You could do the same thing with a Denon.

In other words, there is no fundamental difference in frequency response, both receivers will be perfectly flat within the audible range (20Hz-20kHz) just like nearly any other modern preamp.

What he was talking about is the difference in S/N ratio specs on the DAC's, and positing that is why your wife noticed a difference. Color me skeptical there are so many differences in settings, tweaks, etc. on any receiver that it's a little premature to attribute any "my wife heard it!" difference to any specific characteristic.
post #5650 of 18957
Hello peeps,

Since 1 week proud owner of 3312 - what a sound^^
Have read and researched all menu's for the past week and can't solve the following:

1) My mediacenter is connected at dvr port (=hdmi4), when switching from a stereo channel (cd, dock or tuner) to dvr my receiver says 'stereo' and no sound at all is produced. I need to switch off and on again to let my receiver understand a multichannel input is present, and sound is restored.

2) Got almost the same experiece when switching to TV, no sound untill reboot.

Both devices (tv and mediacenter) are connected with 1.4 certified hdmi cables (only)..... why does my receiver do not 'see' multi channel input, and therefore displays stereo, and no sound is produced at all untill reboot?

Hope anyone is able to help, thanks in advance
post #5651 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think that is unlikely to actually be true. Both Denon and Onkyo use the same Audyssey system so will have the same high freq roll-off.

The only difference would be if you are using the MUSIC mode for Audyssey EQ on the Onkyo, which automatically engages the "flat" curve for Audyssey. You could do the same thing with a Denon.

In other words, there is no fundamental difference in frequency response, both receivers will be perfectly flat within the audible range (20Hz-20kHz) just like nearly any other modern preamp.

What he was talking about is the difference in S/N ratio specs on the DAC's, and positing that is why your wife noticed a difference. Color me skeptical there are so many differences in settings, tweaks, etc. on any receiver that it's a little premature to attribute any "my wife heard it!" difference to any specific characteristic.

It is what I said, tekjunkie should try the 'Audyssey flat' frequency curve on his Denon and compare. Many people prefer a smoother, warmer sound, which is probably why the default Audyssey curve on Denon is one with rolled off highs.
I prefer to shoot for maximum fidelity, hence prefer the 'Audyssey flat' curve.

The Onkyo 1007 has better pre-amp/amp specs, but the differences will be subtle.
Bear in mind that the vast majority of people don't hear the difference between a 128kbps MP3 and CD quality.
Like tasting a Chateau d'Yquem or Petrus would teach one the qualities to look for in an affordable wine, my half decent headphone rig is my audio benchmark by lack of better reference but I'm by no means an expert.
post #5652 of 18957
I tried the flat curve. I couldn't hear a difference. I'm in between recievers now. Just picked up a pair of monitor audio RX6's. They sound way better than the canton gle's I had b4.
post #5653 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by debaasxx View Post

Hello peeps,

Since 1 week proud owner of 3312 - what a sound^^
Have read and researched all menu's for the past week and can't solve the following:

1) My mediacenter is connected at dvr port (=hdmi4), when switching from a stereo channel (cd, dock or tuner) to dvr my receiver says 'stereo' and no sound at all is produced. I need to switch off and on again to let my receiver understand a multichannel input is present, and sound is restored.

2) Got almost the same experiece when switching to TV, no sound untill reboot.

Both devices (tv and mediacenter) are connected with 1.4 certified hdmi cables (only)..... why does my receiver do not 'see' multi channel input, and therefore displays stereo, and no sound is producedat all untill reboot?

Hope anyone is able to help, thanks in advance


It sounds like handshake issues.

Turn everything off and then try changing your Hdmi cables around including your tv cable also use different hdmi ports on your avr and tv if possible.

If no luck try a micro reset. You can save your settings using the web control feature.
post #5654 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacci View Post

Bear in mind that the vast majority of people don't hear the difference between a 128kbps MP3 and CD quality.

I don't know I have heard some pretty brutal 128kps MP3.
post #5655 of 18957
i'm a recent forum member, and have been using this outstanding forum to understand my new components. a great site, and a big shout out to batpig and jdsmoothie for taking their time to help the weak

i apologize for being too wordy, but thought its better than being vague, so here goes...
  1. i'm taking delivery of a samsung pn64d8000 and 3312ci this weekend. i was intending to wire the cable box, sat box, and blu ray via hdmi 1.4 to the 3312ci, then have one hdmi cable between 3312ci and tv.
  2. the tv, 3312ci and blu ray player are all different manufacturers, so i'll be streaming some of the disparate services from any of those devices from time to time. thus, i think i want to ensure i have pass through capability from tv to avr.
  3. like several people, my wife just wants to turn on the tv and watch (no avr). 99.9% of the time she's watching the cable box or sat box sources. its unlikely she'll want to stream tv services to the avr (but then again, i've given up trying to second guess her).
  4. jdsmoothie said on paragraph 5e: "Note also that with some TVs (ie. Samsung) the AVR will also revert to the TV input while in Standby which will prevent you from using the HDMI pass through feature (eg. cable/sat box) without turning the HDMI-CEC setting on the TV to OFF. If this is too annoying, either turn off the HDMI-CEC/ARC setting on the TV when not using it or forgo the ARC feature (set HDMI-CEC/ARC to OFF) and use an optical cable from the TV to the AVR.

question: given points 1-3, does #4 mean that we should just keep the tv's arc feature off, then when we want to stream from the tv to the avr, turn it on?

thanks in advance!
post #5656 of 18957
Yup.
post #5657 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Key question is quoting his opinion rather then yours to see how people respond, Joe likes his Onkyo TX-NR3009, whether every Onkyo model is as good is another question, just like deciding between the appropriate Denon model to compare against the 809, in this case the AVR-3312CI.

Video processing in AVR's as you know is redundant, as your BD player has a video processor, and so does your HDTV. For me, the only real value with video processing in a AVR is with a set-top-box, not improving the DVD/BD source or the HDTV.

By the way hows the Onkyo 809 against web control? The 3312CI is pretty advanced in that area (see page 80 of the user manual). It seems Denon is really into networking more then Onkyo still.

If you had picked the earlier Onkyo model I would have also brought up their setup GUI, but the 809 is a lot better. They been playing catch up to Denon in this area.

Powerwise, even if you like comparing weight, both AVR's probably do just fine with 5 channel or 7 channel loads, as that is both brands strong suits.

Personally I just happen to like the current Denon displays as they show more information on the display that Onkyo models. Just a matter of taste.
Good luck with your decision.

I agree with you regarding AVR's. Manufacturers like to list what video processor they are using, but often times they do not use the full implementation. I would rather that the AVR just passed it through without doing anything to the video and let the video device do the work. I do not give much value to what video processor is in an AVR. Now room correction, that is another matter.
Reply
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post #5658 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yup.

thanks! ya'all rock!!
post #5659 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by sim_c View Post

Every-time i turn on the device, it goes automatically to TV source and shows a black img and doesn't stay on the latest source i used/watched,
and i have to switch to sat/cbl or dvd manually everytime again

Could i set the default source to start with when i turn ON my device??

I have hdmi control turned on, as i use it in order for my receiver to get turned off as soon as i turn my tv off
turning HDMI-CEC off on the TV fixes the problem, but i would like a workaround while leaving HDMI-CEC on , on the TV

I have the same problem. If you have a sufficiently programmable universal remote, you can create a macro that turns on both, then waits until after the TV finishes its idiotic switching, then switch the Denon back.

My MX-500 remote has a maximum delay of 3 seconds between commands, so I just repeatedly switch the Denon to the desired input.

Samsung claims there is no spoon. Errr, problem.
post #5660 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Turn Anynet+ to OFF when you're not using the ARC feature.

I don't use the ARC feature

Just the feature, that turning OFF my tv will turn OFF my receiver as well,

any solution for this?
post #5661 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregF View Post

Ahhh, ^this. I've been looking for some science beyond the product loyalty (not criticizing, it's a very subjective medium!) I really appreciate that information. Airplay is a positive selling point to me, as well, though I already have a new mac mini and a couple of spare airport expresses, so not sure this is too important to me.

I'm all sorts of tempted to get that 3009 knowing this, but I have to remember that for right now, I'm going from no receiver to having a receiver again! I'm probably going to be amazed just by having a home theater system for the first time in a couple of years.

I really appreciate the fact that you tried to be scientific in your approach.

I agree most people are just looking to validate their own purchase, but I have no problem saying that the Denon 3312 doesn't really sound better compared to my previous receiver (Onkyo TX-SR706), I didn't expect it to.
Stereo performance in this class of A/V receivers is mediocre at best anyway, they're all about housing 7 amps in a box (and keeping them cool), surround decoding and features.

My ears opened when I build an external DAC (AMB y2) and active ground channel class A headphone amp (AMB M^3) with linear power supply.
I was AMAZED how different good recordings sound when the noise floor is very low (external linear power supply, short circuit paths), detail/resolution is high (high end DAC) and power is supplied to the amp with no restraint (class A amp, linear power supply and large high quality capacitor bank). Bass pounds hard and precise, the tiniest detail can be heard and songs sometimes seem to come to a full stop and pick up again due to the low noise floor.

It helps to know the parameters. How many people who highly value their receiver's stereo performance would buy an AVR-4311 if they knew it used the same DAC as the cheap 499$ AVR-1912, just two of them to process more channels?

I think you're absolutely right about upgrading in small steps, I do it too. Always have something to look forward to
post #5662 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by sim_c View Post

I don't use the ARC feature

Just the feature, that turning OFF my tv will turn OFF my receiver as well,

any solution for this?

Buy a Harmony remote.
post #5663 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by sim_c View Post

I don't use the ARC feature

Just the feature, that turning OFF my tv will turn OFF my receiver as well,

any solution for this?

The option are as JD and Bp stated.

Turn off CEC and use the avr to turn on and off your Tv and Avr. Your Avr should have a Remote Preset Code for your Sammy. It will only add a couple of seconds for this or buy a Harmony or Harmony type Remote
post #5664 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davird_Jr View Post

I got my 2112 last week and have it setup 7.1 with rear surround. Thanks to JD and Batpig for the very useful info, which I read several times before starting and have also followed this thread from the beginning, so thanks to everyone's input, much appreciated. Coming from an Onkyo HT setup from late 90's with an interim HK cheapie for the last couple years while deciding what to buy to replace the Onkyo that the digital board went on. Was going to stay Onkyo but they've been having too many problems. 2112 from EE excellent experience. Speakers are Paradigm LCR 350 with matching CC and ADP for the surrounds. Added some Energys for the back surrounds as they were the only decent sounding speaker that I could find reasonably that fit in my space. Also have a new HSU VTF-2 MK3 in the setup as my 17 year old Cambridge Soundworks Powered sub crapped out in the spring. Ran Audyssey all 8 positions and receiver set my fronts to large with 40 Xover and the rest of my speakers to small with 60 Xover. Sub ended up at -5.5 and the rest of the speakers ended up at -.05 to +3.5 so I am good with that. Changed the fronts to small and Xovers to 80 per the recommendations at the beginning of this thread. Bass is a little lighter than I would like, but I may boost that later after listening for a few weeks. Loving Dynamic Volume! Loving Internet radio! Basically everything is great except for one thing: When we power up the system (with our Harmony 880) the front speakers make a loud awful staticky crackling for the first few seconds. Is this normal? Do we have to power down the volume before we power down they system or is there something that I've missed? I tried hitting mute when it crackles and it doesn't seem to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spager View Post

^

No that is not normal. You will need to do some trouble shooting. You will want to eliminate the problem so for that you need to stat unplugging and testing. I would start with your front speaker wires and try replacing the front speakers and see if that solves your problem. Also you could try taking your sources out of the mix including your cables. Maybe even your power bar. In short just start eliminating till you find the culprit.

Thank you for taking interest in my issue and let me apologize for not being able to troubleshoot this due to my schedule, but I have been able to make one observation:

First my setup is:

1) Dish Network HD Sat DVR into Sat/Cbl via HDMI AND analog audio RCA left & right (for use to Zone 2)

2) Insignia BD player into BD input via HDMI

3) Toshiba HD-DVD into DVD input via HDMI

4) HDMI out of 2112 to HDMI input 1 on Samsung non-arc plasma HDTV (TV purchased 4/2008)

5) Optical digital audio out of Samsung TV back to Optical in on 2112

6) RCA audio out of Zone 2 outputs to old Onkyo AVR used as amp for Zone 2

On Sunday I wanted to turn on Internet radio to listen in the background while I was working on a project so I turned on the system and it did the usual crackling/static same as I have previously reported. Again, no time to troubleshoot so I just lived with it and continued with what I was doing and shut the TV off and left the Internet radio on playing in the background. A while later I wanted to change stations so I turned the TV on and when the TV came on I heard the static. So I turned the TV on and off a few times and realized that the static was not coming from my system speakers, but from my TV speakers. I don't understand this because my TV speakers were turned all the way down.

So my question is, is there some setting that is sending something out to my TV either by HDMI or by Optical that is causing the static even with the TV speakers turned all the way down? I have HDMI TV set to "AMP".

Thanks again for this helpful thread.
post #5665 of 18957
^

The only thing I can not understand is why you have the Optical Digital in the mix? You can run all your sources through Hdmi both Video and Audio. Try taking the Optical Digital out of the mix and see if that solves your issue.

Do you use the Pass Through feature and how does your Tv sound, if you do?
post #5666 of 18957
I own a 3312 and when changing from SAT/CBL to NET the AVR hangs up and doesn't allow any input from the remote or directly from the AVR. The only way I've been able to restore functionality to the AVR is to unplug entire unit and then replug which restores all functionality. Is this a problem with the unit or is there some other process I should be trying to fix this?
post #5667 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by spager View Post

^

The only thing I can not understand is why you have the Optical Digital in the mix? You can run all your sources through Hdmi both Video and Audio. Try taking the Optical Digital out of the mix and see if that solves your issue.

Do you use the Pass Through feature and how does your Tv sound, if you do?

If he has another antenna going directly to the TV (like over the air) then that allows him to get DD from the HD channels to his AVR for audio.
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post #5668 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by sim_c View Post

I would like to fix an issue on my Denon 1912

Every-time i turn on the device, it goes automatically to TV source and shows a black img and doesn't stay on the latest source i used/watched,
and i have to switch to sat/cbl or dvd manually everytime again

Could i set the default source to start with when i turn ON my device??

I have hdmi control turned on, as i use it in order for my receiver to get turned off as soon as i turn my tv off
turning HDMI-CEC off on the TV fixes the problem, but i would like a workaround while leaving HDMI-CEC on , on the TV

Found a solution for my issue, and wanted to share it here.

Went on to the menus , to source delete, and deleted the TV source, now the receiver doesn't have the choice to switch to TV source when the AVR is turned on,
and it does stay on the last watched source.

So i've got both the features i needed working,
BTW i'm using the UK 1912 Denon, which is pretty similar to the 2112 US one.

By everyday i just find it more and more stable and discover new features, really an awesome buy.
post #5669 of 18957
^^
Good catch ... thanks for sharing.
post #5670 of 18957
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 05 View Post

If he has another antenna going directly to the TV (like over the air) then that allows him to get DD from the HD channels to his AVR for audio.

Yes that is why it is setup that way. My AVR is in a closet adjacent to the family room so wires are through wall. Optical had also been used on occasion for the xbox to send digital audio to previous AVR. Looking into running another HDMI through wall for a "game" hookup in a wall jack.

I removed the optical as it was easy to do last night. Still got the static. I won't be able to troublshoot on this until Thursday night so I'll let you know what I figure out after that. Thanks again all.
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