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2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 43

post #1261 of 1871
I knew I remembered jkeener71 admitting to seeing the defect...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeener71 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by JP32 View Post


By jpimageshack at 2012-01-22


I checked my ESPNHD on DirecTV, and I only see the bleeding on the ESPN logo, but the other words were fine. Just posting to verify I am seeing this too.

btw, it doesn't bother me one bit, and unless it was pointed out, I never noticed....

On that note, I hope something can be done to fix it if possible.

Thank you.

To which I had replied:


Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Thanks for the report, jkeener71. That's 6 out of 6 who found the issue when they checked for it.

videobruce, as you're getting at, I've determined it's the input decoder shared by all HDMI inputs and the Component input, specifically color decoding, before the TV's post processing.

Reasons for this are given in my prior post, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21527454

The only input I haven't tested since noticing the issue is OTA. I don't care to right now, for the hassle. (my TV is pretty boxed in - but yes, it has good ventilation behind it / above it)

I appreciate your input. Many of your questions will be answered in my (copious) prior posts, and the test descriptions in my video gallery.
post #1262 of 1871
Captain Taco,

I LOVE YOU!!!!

On my PC now, the text/fonts are clearer and sharp, the videos look better.

All by setting 3D mode with checkerboard. Why the heck didn't I ever try that!?!

Oh well I love this forum and right now, especially Captain of all Tacos!!!

Everyone, go do this now!
post #1263 of 1871
Here's a link to CaptainTaco's post in the 740 thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainTaco View Post

[...] This just popped into my head, I wasn't paying too close of attention at the time, but I am pretty sure the problem didn't present itself during this example (will test again tonight and repost). I often play games on my computer in 3D through the 92840 using Nvidia's 3D Vision. For this I output to the TV in checkerboard format. Now to do this I obviously have to set the TV to checkerboard 3D (I'm going somewhere with this I promise). Now when checkerboard format is enabled on the TV and you are not actually playing 3D content (such as you are still on the desktop of the computer) everything should look fairly normal (assuming you don't have the glasses on and you don't have geometry correction enabled (Geometry correction usually causes blurriness in the image when 3D mode is enabled, displaying a 2D image, when being viewed without glasses). During this time I do not remember seeing the normal artifacting I am used to (in Windows 7 the red X at the top right of every window is always artifacting, especially if you mouse over it...). Again I am going to confirm tonight, however, if this is the case it could show that the problem is actually being created from the "Smooth 120hz" as this is something you lose once you enter 3D mode if I am not mistaken. Of course there are other things 3D mode does, I think, such as separating every other pixel into a separate frame? Doesn't the TV normally have overlap in each pixel (I think I remember GtGray mentioning this before as well as others) and in 3D mode I believe that overlap disappears so as to separate the checkerboard frames. Again, my disclaimer is don't actually take anything I say as truth, I am just repeating things I think I remember people saying, please don't take this as an "actual" description of what happens. I am more writing it so the actual experts here can see if the relation of any of this is of any use to them, and if not, meh, least I am trying to figure out the cause haha. But again, I could be completely mistaken as to what happens when you enter 3D mode as well, making any of this useless.
post #1264 of 1871
Awesome find! This is why me and Howl have been begging for AVS support. The more heads thinking about this, the better.

Some caveats though.

I'll start with the good:

1) Gets rid of several instances of the color decoding bug (all that I've checked).

2) No signs of 'sharpness' being set to anything other then 0, even though the setting is completely disabled.

The BAD:


1) The color temp is effected. Seems to go cooler, though could be a simple loss of color that can be fixed by pumping up the color setting a few notches (Hard to test because of the full screen menu blocking the image, and then delay/flash of black screen between changing settings). It's like going from Brilliant to your calibrated 'natural' or 'ADV' setting... sure, Brilliant looks way wrong, but when you put it back to your calibrated setting, it almost looks black and white by comparison... you just gotta wait a minute to let yourself adjust. I'll test more tonight.

2) Several options on video settings are disabled. Why?

3) Brilliant and Bright settings are completely whacked out, more-so then usual.

4) As mentioned before, the "3D Mode Enabled" display pops up anytime you change a channel or BD disc, etc.

5) I'd like to know exactly what's going on with this Checkerboard mode enabled. Are we losing any resolution? That type of stuff. I'm sure simple 1080p resolution charts could test for this, I just don't have any.

6) When in Checkerboard mode, settings seem to take several seconds longer to take effect once you input them. Say, you have it on ADV1 and switch over to Natural... it will switch over, then another little change will take effect a moment later. Like the processor is over-worked.


** I'm working with Firmware .03 due to the idiot Tech not updating after swapping out my main board. Gonna try to wait for the new tech to come and have him update the TV. So some of my findings may be obsolete.

I wonder if it's their smooth motion or whatever the hell its called... if 3D checkerboard maybe disables it?

This is definitely a huge step in the right direction... I look forward to pointing this out to the Tech when he comes out.
post #1265 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP32 View Post

Awesome find! Some caveats though.


2) ADV modes are gone, as well as several features of the normal video settings.

On my PC I still have and I am using ADV1, ADV2 is available too.
post #1266 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeener71 View Post

On my PC I still have and I am using ADV1, ADV2 is available too.

My bad --- Mine's working as well.

ADV was greyed out in the main menu and not available in the normal video options carousel. I had to actually select it and hit 'enter' for all the options to appear. Probably because of my main board being swapped out a few days ago and me not going into the ADV modes since.

Going to update my original post on the matter...
post #1267 of 1871
Notice that when you turn checkerboard on that when you hit the video button that sharpness, color temp and video noise settings are absent.

Also when you hit the menu button they are absent

Edit They do display in AV1 and AV2. Although they are absent for Brilliant, Bright and Natural.

This is a VERY good find. Good job everyone.
post #1268 of 1871
Also 2D + Depth mode displays similar results in certain settings being absent. They are available in AV1 and AV2.

Also similar results in automatically removing the offending @rtofacto bugs.
post #1269 of 1871
I'm willing to try this, too, but I'm a bit confused as to Exactly What Setting, Where is being changed....

So....

As an explanation for someone who is suffering Massive Information Overload.... (MIO ! )

Could someone post the procedure to get to this setting... and a picture shot of it, before and after.... So I can have some ammunition as to what I'm looking for?


Armed with that information, I'll do the test here!


A P.S. to the Color Temperature issue posted above.... When I was setting up the 640 here, I noted that the color temperature settings were too warm for the text that they were indicating... (I'm going to guess about 3000K warmer than the text indicated...)
I wonder if that is why...... ????
post #1270 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

I'm willing to try this, too, but I'm a bit confused as to Exactly What Setting, Where is being changed....

So....

As an explanation for someone who is suffering Massive Information Overload.... (MIO ! )

Could someone post the procedure to get to this setting... and a picture shot of it, before and after.... So I can have some ammunition as to what I'm looking for?


Armed with that information, I'll do the test here!


A P.S. to the Color Temperature issue posted above.... When I was setting up the 640 here, I noted that the color temperature settings were too warm for the text that they were indicating... (I'm going to guess about 3000K warmer than the text indicated...)
I wonder if that is why...... ????

Pretty sure what is being suggested is leaving one of the mentioned 3d modes on in the TV to counteract the previously mentioned bugs.
Seems odd to me that these modes being on for normal viewing wouldn't introduce other issues. However I am willing to try and when I have a minute will use HOWL's images and the desaturation test with one of these 3d modes on. If someone else has not already done so.
post #1271 of 1871
Well, that would explain the "warmer" color temperature results!

I don't have any 3D equipment, so I haven't ever looked at those settings....

Which, specifically, are we to change???
post #1272 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

Well, that would explain the "warmer" color temperature results!

I don't have any 3D equipment, so I haven't ever looked at those settings....

Which, specifically, are we to change???

Listed in posts above - I believe checkerboard and 2d + depth were mentioned
post #1273 of 1871
You guys are quick, I just want to clarify my previous post. In reference to the results seem to be similar in the 2D + Depth mode. I was refering to the ESPN logo. I didn't confirm it against Howl's reference material.

You can imediately see the artifacto bug while viewing the ESPN logo automajically disapear before your eyes. When switching to checkerboard.

Jan J put your TV on ESPNHD channel and L@@K at the ESPN logo. Lower right bottom of screen.

Now on Mitz remote hit menu button, move over to 3D Mode, then under Source Format select Checkerboard, press enter/ok button on remote. Hit exit button. Screen goes blank, picture reappears. Majically ESPN logo L@@Ks mucho better.

I also wonder if this may be the reason why somepeople experience the artifacto bug and other's don't. I think that when my TV was factory fresh that the 3D source mode was off. Shortly after getting my TV I adjusted some of the TV settings. I recall changing mine from off to automajic.
post #1274 of 1871
OK... After I determined that these features are only available on HDMI inputs.... (I was trying to enable it on an OTA signal !! ) !
I switched to my PC tried checkerboard in the 3D settings...

My Findings:

It's too 'soft' an image... No "Snap"

I didn't even look at color temp... All I'm seeing is 'interpolation softening'...
post #1275 of 1871
Was the ESPN channel you were watching HD or SD?
post #1276 of 1871
HD... I see your issue...

Starting in on Color Temp... There's another issue... Looks like Checkerboard is using a compound gamma curve.... Probably to stretch blacks a bit to overcome the ND effect of glasses....
post #1277 of 1871
I'm beginning to see why you'd use Checkerboard...

Whereas the PC images I was sending had much interpolation issues, Cablebox HDMI looks much better with Checkerboard. If there was a three position Color Temp setting, (Or Much Better, Variable!) it would be easier to make sense of this...
post #1278 of 1871
I tried to watch Iron Man BD last night with the Checkerboard settings, but the loss of 'pop' was too much.

The artifacting problem was alleviated (several instances in the movie itself, such as a red car, gold lettering and skin tones... but also an easy to see pop-up time menu when you hit 'pause', similar to my TF2 pics)... but the loss of brightness/contrast/color is a little too much to bear. I couldn't get the settings to make up for it... though maybe a different gamma setting is all that's needed?

Also, I'd really like to find out why settings take a few extra moments to take effect, as well as the TV taking noticably longer to "lock in" when changing sources/channels/etc. I assume the TV's processor is being put into overdrive. *This could have to do with my .03 firmware, unless you guys notice it too.

Still, an awesome find as far as pointing out another variable.
post #1279 of 1871
Jan J

Correct, the 3D source format setting is absent in the antenna input.

ESPN HD, HD channel, 720P

As far as what is changing, that's anybodys guess at this time. I don't know if we will ever know completely that answer.

I imagine that there is probably a secret, secret, secret menu. In addition to the Mitz service menu. That Mitz engineers and their Ninja Cal Specialist use. That has possible thosands of settings that can be adjusted.

Eventually getting to the right person at Mitz, them having an open ear, willingness to be able to attempt to duplicate in the lab. Will be key to possible resolving this.
post #1280 of 1871
Watching ESPN HD (ESPN is 720P)
Man... The SD Upconverted commercials look positively "Out of Focus" in Checkerboard!

Checkerboard is applying a complex gamma curve to the video.... Stretching blacks, compressing whites, and overall reduction in contrast ratio.. Yes i,t shifts blue, too...

6 of one, half a dozen of another....

If Video adjust were made available in this mode, we might have a solution....

My guess is there is processing power for higher Frame-rate, or video adjustment... Not both...

This gets curiouser and curiouser!!
post #1281 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

Watching ESPN HD (ESPN is 720P)
Man... The SD Upconverted commercials look positively "Out of Focus" in Checkerboard!

Checkerboard is applying a complex gamma curve to the video.... Stretching blacks, compressing whites, and overall reduction in contrast ratio.. Yes i,t shifts blue, too...

6 of one, half a dozen of another....

If Video adjust were made available in this mode, we might have a solution....

My guess is there is processing power for higher Frame-rate, or video adjustment... Not both...

This gets curiouser and curiouser!!

I'm pretty sure you can adjust Checkerboard mode in ADV video settings just as much as normal non-3D modes... but I still haven't gotten it quite to match on 'pop' factor.

One good thing about this checkerboard deal is it forced me off my lazy butt to work on ADV mode settings (I had been using natural on high color temp)... going back and forth between my natural settings and my new ADV settings make natural look like pure-blue, lol.

Random question --- I wonder if my eyes are out of whack for TV viewing, cause I had to drop Green waaaaaay down on everything in ADV, or else everything would tint green. Especially highlights. Anyone else have to do this?

I had a similar problem on my JVC... everyone thought "Cinema mode" looked the best, but I always thought it looked too green.
post #1282 of 1871
One saving grace.... I'm not seeing any greater motion artifacts in 1080i (HBO) than ESPN (720P)

But I have a list of things that need adjusting in video....

It does appear that you can save Checkerboard in one input and not another....

The HiRes pics (4352x2248) output of laptop @ 1920x1080 look worse in checkerboard because of the downconvert interpolation that's going on in Laptop.... Probably native 1920x1080 would look better.... So I've set PC without checkerboard.
I'm going to leave Checkerboard "ON" on cablebox feed (Cablebox set for "Native" so no cross conversions occur in box....) and see if the wife notices... I'm going to bet she will ask about video looking "washed out"....

Actually, now that I think about it.... I would expect just the oppsite effect to occur....
If you are wearing 3D glasses, you'd think that the MITS would pump out MORE Contrast Ratio, to overcome the ND effect of the glasses, right?

Curiouser and curiouser!!
post #1283 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

Actually, now that I think about it.... I would expect just the oppsite effect to occur....
If you are wearing 3D glasses, you'd think that the MITS would pump out MORE Contrast Ratio, to overcome the ND effect of the glasses, right?

Curiouser and curiouser!!

Exactly what I was thinking to myself last night. Odd stuff, indeed.
post #1284 of 1871
So, now that this new info is known (checkerboard mode greatly reduces the original issue), does it now seem more likely that a firmware fix could solve it without the need of the use of checkerboard mode (since that brings some potentially unwanted issues with it)?
post #1285 of 1871
This is with the latest firmware... 13.05 by the way.....

So I've been "Playing" and here are some other things I don't understand...
Say I turn Checkerboard "ON".... If you have never adjusted Advanced, that leave no setting into Advanced--- which displays as: "--" in the Advanced settings...

So let's say you select ADV1 in Advanced.... Pix automatically changes to show this settings change... Which is expected....

HOWEVER... Let's say you go into the ADV1 setting and select something to adjust..
Say Sharpness... The moment you adjust that, MANY Settings are applied... Pix changes GREATLY... You are still in ADV1, yet your setting are different..
So I exit menu, and "Off" colors persist...

So... I now hit VIDEO... and it indicates I'm in ADV1, though the settings were not what I saw before in ADV1, it's something different... So I manually arrow over to NATURAL, and that looks better.... So I exit VIDEO... And go to another input, and back again to cablebox... Video still the same....OK.
So I go back into MENU and verify Checkerboard is on... and go into ADVANCED and it tells me I'm in ADV1..... ??????
So I exit, go to VIDEO, VIDEO Tells me I'm on NATURAL... Go Back to MENU/ADVANCED, and ADVANCED Says I'm on ADV1.....

Remind you of "Who's on First?"
post #1286 of 1871
I haven't done it yet but I am fairly certain recalibrating checkerboard in ADV mode should be able to produce the right gamma, brightness and contrast to match the "pop" of 3D off. In my case even if it doesn't I should be able to work around it with the DUO.

I watched Charlie Rose last night and he was doing his annual Oscars special and the trailers were simply blurred beyond recognition while the interviews look fine.

I set my DUO to force 1080P. What that does is take the resoltuion negotiation out of the sync after channel change. I still get the benefit of running the Tivo in native rez mode and letting the DUO deinterlace and scale but I don't see the blue alert to turn on 3d glasses.


Maybe if I feel industrious tonight late I will calibrate and see what is really going on that knocks the pop out of the picture in checkerboard. The Mits presets on gamma are never ruler flat, no telling what silliness they have pulled with checkerboard.
post #1287 of 1871
Yeah, I'm coming to same conclusion....

Trying to determine the interactions of the various settings is a bit confusing... and I'm supposed to know what I'm doing.

I realize it is Apples and Oranges, but I'd like to see the settings you get..... I'm now playing with ADV1 settings.... and wish this had a built in sensor and Macbeth chart to compare against!!!
post #1288 of 1871
gtgray:

How are you calibrating?
What signal, what sensor?

You know, if they had let us see the Advanced settings of Natural, Bright, and Vivid, I could interpret what to put in ADV1....

I see all the adjustments needed to adjust the image.... but would need to know the sensor and signal needed to make the measurements...

I have the i1display2 software and sensor, but that's for a computer, and you make a LUT to apply as an offest to the display card memory...
This works fine on computer... but how to do on DLP?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I'm going to surmise the RGB High and RGB Low will be the main culprets.... but that only affects greyscale tracking...
An electrical Macbeth chart and sensor would seem to be the fix... but the i1display2 I have is only made to work with LUT's, and
We'd need a way of displaying the "Live" results of the adjustment, while we manually tweak the settings...
HMMM... 64 patterns minimum in the Macbeth Chart.... OUCH!!!!
post #1289 of 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

gtgray:

How are you calibrating?
What signal, what sensor?

You know, if they had let us see the Advanced settings of Natural, Bright, and Vivid, I could interpret what to put in ADV1....

I see all the adjustments needed to adjust the image.... but would need to know the sensor and signal needed to make the measurements...

I have the i1display2 software and sensor, but that's for a computer, and you make a LUT to apply as an offest to the display card memory...
This works fine on computer... but how to do on DLP?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I'm going to surmise the RGB High and RGB Low will be the main culprets.... but that only affects greyscale tracking...
An electrical Macbeth chart and sensor would seem to be the fix... but the i1display2 I have is only made to work with LUT's, and
We'd need a way of displaying the "Live" results of the adjustment, while we manually tweak the settings...
HMMM... 64 patterns minimum in the Macbeth Chart.... OUCH!!!!

I am using the variously named Eye One Pro OEM, which has The ChromaPure ehancements and is calibrated on various sets with a 5 nanometer reference grade spectrometer. Chroma Pure calls this instrument the D3 Pro. I use ChromaPure Professional version softare with it. For signal generation I use the patterns in the Iscan DUO if I am autocalibrating or I use the AVSHD709 disk with my Pioneer BD player. I measure at the center of the screen from a tripod at about 12" from the screen in a dark room. I only calibrate for night viewing. The meter will work just as well in contact mode against the screen and has an integrated counter weight.

I was working in Natural and doing all the grayscale and gamma adjustment from the Low Temp grayscale selection as my baseline. The DUO has 10 Point Grayscale and both Primary and Secondary Gamut adjusments.

I stopped using Natural and went to Advanced Mode.. not because I had any problem with Natural and the DUO, but what I wanted was a set that was largely calibrated with its own internal controls and to use the DUO only for minjor adjustments. That way if the DUO VP went down for some reason I would still have a reasonable calibration with the DUO out of the chain. The DUO for example only supports 1.3b and just 3D pass through. It does not apply Color and Grayscale management to frame packed 3D of HDMI 1.4

So my workflow now is to set Grayscale in ADV mode manually and get it pretty close, then I let the ChromaPure and let the DUO autocalibrate grayscale and gamma. I will then adjust 10 and 20 IRE manually doing continous measurements which produces a more accurate representation of grayscale at the low light levels. I use the DUO to autocalibrate Gamma...

ChromaPure doing autocalc has a < 2.0 dE for grayscale and a < 1.5 dE target for Gamut errors. Autocalc often will actually exceed it targets, but if it doesn't it is easy to make adjustments manually either in the Mits CMS or in the DUO. Typically the biggest error left after Gamut autocalc maybe luminance errors. This is often faster to fix it in the Mits than in the DUO.

So typically what I end up with is a fairly decent grayscale dE of about 1.0 average and Color CIE 1994 dE of 1.0 or less across the board on each color. The biggest bugaboo at least with the DUO installed is a tendency for color to clip above max white (100 IRE) although you may see green clip sooner if you are pushing all the light you can through the WD-92840... On a smaller screen you have more bandwidth and don't need to run with contrast at 63 necessarily. I combat this clipping by lowering the contrast for a particular input on the DUO itself prior to calibration and I get a good light output (30 ft lamberts), level gamma and a no color shift in the grayscale pretty much all the way to digital 109.

The AVS HD709 disk is not only free but it is an excellent tool and combined with an accurate blu-ray player you have an excellent pattern generator that has patterns laid out for both Calman and ChromaPure workflows. These are the two leading commercial calibration apps. It also provides patterns arranged for the workflow of the free app HCFR which has a new developer reworking the source and now offering support for some new meters. The important thing for best results is to have a meter that has a table for the display if using a colorimeter or have both a colorimeter and a spectrometer to train the colorimeter for the specific display. I see very nice results with ChromaPure and the ChromaPure enhanced D3 Pro which has a table that corrects for the Mits DLP rear projector.

The D3 Pro, or from Spectracal, the Chroma 6 are value added versions of the X-Rite Display 3 OEM. The meters are fast, highly repeatable and handle low light very well. I don't have a spectrometer to verfiy that meter or the table is as accurate as ChromaPure claims but I have great confidence in Tom Huffman who is the owner developer of ChromaPure and I have only good things to say about how he manages customer issues. The way the D3 Pro is built should allow it to maintain its accuracy much longer than the Display 2 as the filters are hermetically sealed.

I used a Chroma5 meter before this and while it was a huge juimp over an Eye One Display 2, it not in the same league as the D3 Pro. ChromaPure the app is an excellent piece of software that is very user friendly but plenty powerful.
post #1290 of 1871
As far as what the adjustments in ADV mode do...

Grayscale from 30 to 80 IRE is ajusted with RGB High, below 30 are the RGB Low adjustments. These controls overlap and high adjustment will have some effect on the low grayscale measurement and vice versa. It actually works pretty well. For Gamut you have the individual Color Ajustments. They give you control over how much of Red, Green and Blue are in particular color. You don't have much flexibility on Saturation for Red and Blue Primaries, on a CIE chart you can move them much.. they tend toward undesaturaion but nowhere like earlier Mits sets.

Take Magenta as an example. The default might be 15,0,15 which should be equal amounts of Red and Blue.. if the Primaries are close this should place Magenta near the center of the target box on the CIE diagram. If the software is showing that magenta is too bright relative to white, you might end up with 14,0,14. The DUO has much more granular control. Taken together the ADV mode controls and the DUO give you both fast easy big control steps as well as the ability to make very small steps in x,y and Y for a specific color or grayscale zone.
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