or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › 2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 7

post #181 of 553
When I cranked the Captivator over here my front wall was not shaking anywhere close to Archea's front wall. I don't know if that's a factor or not.
post #182 of 553
Coucil. Tried to return your PM but your box is full.
post #183 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

When I cranked the Captivator over here my front wall was not shaking anywhere close to Archea's front wall. I don't know if that's a factor or not.

It could be a factor. A sub driver exists in two enclosures at the same time. One enclosure is the sub box which is ideally solid and fairly inert. The other enclosure seen by the front of the driver is the room which can vary any which way.
post #184 of 553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

When I cranked the Captivator over here my front wall was not shaking anywhere close to Archea's front wall. I don't know if that's a factor or not.

Try these two songs.

Mya - Ghetto Superstar
Nine Inch Nails - The Four of Us are Dying

Those are the two songs that REALLY moved my walls. My walls don't really shake bad until about 16 hz and lower on test tones. At 16hz they'll shake at -20 from reference on the receiver.
post #185 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

How is this possible? I was thinking about this last night and I don't understand?!?!

I can understand my room not letting the SPL's be registering as high because of accoustics and wall vibration cancellation as Jeff suggested and we've more or less accepted as a rational reason, but why would the SVS be able to take the same power and not bottom out at your place? At first I was thinking maybe Chirpie's room is better sealed, perhaps carpet under the door, or better, more solid, wall structure so the driver can't compress the air quite as well, but then realistically every home has HVAC, and therefore no room could be actually sealed to the point it would make enough difference to totally bottom out a sub in one room and then be able to playback at the same or even increased levels in a different room without bottoming out?

I'm bewildered by this. I think I'm going to change my signature to "My entire home theatre room is a null"

The following are approximate numbers due to many possible variables:

I'll take a specific scene I graphed in SpecLab and see if you can follow the math. This is the scene from Tron Legacy where he enters the grid.

Looking at the graph, the in-room FR of both subs shows a huge advantage to the SubMersive centered at 12 Hz, which is understandable, given the superior in-room response of a properly designed sealed sub vs a 20 Hz tuned ported sub with a 2nd order HPF in line below tune, as well as an advantage centered at 45 Hz, which resulted purely by chance due to configuration/placement.

After applying a C-weight SPL meter curve correction at 12 Hz, the SubMersive has a +4dB advantage in the 2 areas of bandwidth that just so happen to coincide with the content in this scene.

Measurement signal chain roll off is irrelevant because any applied correction would apply to both subs equally, resulting in the same difference.

The SPL chart shows the SubMersive clocked a +1.3dB overall advantage vs the Cap, which means that the Cap was outputting approximately +3dB more overall output vs the SubMersive in its pass band.



This makes perfect sense to me, as I don't believe the Cap will outgun the SubMersive by much more than that, if at all, anywhere except right around its 20 Hz tune. And, the SubMersive will kick the Caps butt below 20 Hz, which would also be reflected in the difference in SPL read on a meter if C-weight correction was applied.

The point is that when someone says they clock 'x' dB with an SPL meter during a particular scene, it's imperative that you see the FR at the meter and the spectrograph of the scene to have any idea why that particular scene clocked the number that was observed.

I highly recommend use of SpecLab at these types of G2Gs for this reason. One cursory glance will show the reasons for the objective and subjective differences, if any, including non-linearities. It takes some extra time to include this feature, but not very much, and the digital version of every scene can be generated for comparison before the meet to save time.

As far as the whole 'room shakes 180 degrees out of phase with the sub' theory... no way that's a reasonable explanation for a drop in dBSPL across the entire LFE bandwidth, as in no way.

Bosso
post #186 of 553
^ being completely out-gunned right from the start on this subject, I'll attempt to not embarrass myself.

1. The proposition regarding flexing walls reducing bass output doesn't revolve around a complete (obviously) or even massive reduction in output, but simply enough where one could expect reasonably higher readings in a comparably-sized, perhaps even sealed room not suffering from such effects. Correct? It strikes me as reasonable but I could be wrong.

2. I think your point (bosso) on using "x" passage of a song or movie to compare output between subs (especially those differing fundamentally in design) is straightforward and sensible.

In the above example (Tron) as you said, one would expect a high powered competently designed sealed subwoofer to eclipse a ported version like the Cap. That said however, would it not still be useful to use varying (key word) passageS where, say, a range from 10-80hz signals were exploited, thus giving a listener a better, increasingly holistic view of either subs output potential across the larger spectrum?

I suppose a myriad of test tones is the most direct route, but what fun is that?!

And one more quick item: you mentioned that you wouldn't expect the Cap to "outgun" the Submersive anywhere besides its pass band? That one surprised me a bit as I anticipated that the the high power, high sensitivity, massive driver'd, big vented box design of the Cap would provide more output over the Submersive from 20 on up? I guess the Seaton is not exactly your typical, moderately sized sealed sub though!

Thanks,
James
post #187 of 553
Thread Starter 
bossobass,

If I understand correctly --- put in layman's terms -- you are saying the Submersive was coincidentally placed near perfectly to compliment it's strengths in regards to my room, and potentially, even that particular media scene (tron scene), as compared to the captivator. The placement of the captivator didn't quite agree with the room and it was having to overcome a 'handicap' on the order of 4dB just to make the playing field level based on my unique room response. Thanks for your input! I'm not to your level of understanding yet, maybe won't ever be, but I think you worded it clearly enough for me to get the point! I appreciate your obvious expertise in the matter and your appearance in this thread! It helps all of us!
post #188 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

bossobass,

If I understand correctly --- put in layman's terms -- you are saying the Submersive was coincidentally placed near perfectly to compliment it's strengths in regards to my room, and potentially, even that particular media scene (tron scene), as compared to the captivator. The placement of the captivator didn't quite agree with the room and it was having to overcome a 'handicap' on the order of 4dB just to make the playing field level based on my unique room response. Thanks for your input! I'm not to your level of understanding yet, maybe won't ever be, but I think you worded it clearly enough for me to get the point! I appreciate your obvious expertise in the matter and your appearance in this thread! It helps all of us!

Basically, yes. The FR and the content of a particular movie scene determines the peak dBSPL reading more than anything else when the subs are calibrated to the same level by an AVRs pink noise tone.

But, I'm saying more than that. There have been a lot of numbers thrown around regarding the capabilities of the Captivator. I like to call that sort of thing irrational exuberance. In the final analysis, it's a 1x18" ported sub, tuned to 20 Hz. But, a properly designed and executed 2x15" sealed sub is nothing to sneeze at, and because Seaton is the designer, 'properly designed and executed' is a given.

For example, in Ilkka's test results, 2-15" Tumults sealed with 2400W (adding +6dB to the test results of a 1xTumult MKI with 1200W) bests the 1x18" LMS-5400 sealed with 4000W, overall. And it bests the LMS5400 with 2-passive radiators tuned to 20 Hz everywhere except the 1-1/2 octave around tune, and, of course, far outpaces it below that. Keeping in mind that the MKII was flat to 200 Hz, so using a lower Le driver, the numbers would have tilted toward the 2x15" sub even more.

Yes, the SubMersive drivers are not Tumult MKIIs, but neither is the Caps driver an LMS 5400. But, above 30 Hz, it doesn't much matter.

Sure, subjectively, in a room that boosts 20 Hz by +6dB or more, the ported sub (the powered version that includes a flattened FR and HPF) will play to its strengths and sonic signature, but in a situation where the subs are properly calibrated and played at reference level, I don't see why there is such a huge bias that assumes the SubM should somehow be hopelessly outgunned, which is what I've read being suggested so far in this thread.

Using the passive version and a stock low end pro sound amp like the Berry EP2500 or 4000 (which is what most have asked my opinions about), I don't see any overall advantage going to the Cap vs the SubM HP. In fact, I see the SubM giving a potentially flatter in-room response over at least an octave wider bandwidth.

All I'm saying is that when you put it all together, there isn't any big shock that a meter would clock the SubM higher during movie scenes.

Bosso
post #189 of 553
Well I for one definitely wasn't purposely attempting to assert that the Cap was "king of spl" and the Submersive was 3rd fiddle.

My point was that based on a history of simply reading that multiple owners of EITHER subs have measured significantly higher spls at comparable distances, in comparably-sized rooms, it seemed these readings where on the low-side, especially if indeed there was an effort (at least as far as the JTR and Seaton were concerned) to get at or near the limit of their output.

And I'll say that as a guy going into a VERY large room that I'm a bit disappointed over the fact that time after time folks recommended a Cap over a Submersive for overall output if this is not the case.

Now, seeing that I'll likely be adding a second in the near future it's not the end of the world, but, still.

Although it's still interesting to me how it appears that at least 3 people at the meet felt the JTR offered a tactile experience that wasn't matched by any of the other units in the room. Again though, who knows how placement, source material, etc played into all of this.

I'm sure we'll know more when the HT scores are posted.

James
post #190 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Using the passive version and a stock low end pro sound amp like the Berry EP2500 or 4000 (which is what most have asked my opinions about), I don't see any overall advantage going to the Cap vs the SubM HP. In fact, I see the SubM giving a potentially flatter in-room response over at least an octave wider bandwidth.
Bosso

Thanks for your input in this thread, I enjoy reading your posts even though I don't understand a lot them.

For me the advantage was the price. That advantage has narrowed significantly since the price jump though. I bought the Cap before the price increase for 1349 shipped and combined with the Behringer amp I paid 1678. I don't know how much shipping is for the Submersive, but I assume it's close to the Cap which was 150 so I'll use that number.

Captivator = $1678 total including shipping and amp
Sumbersive = $2245 total including shipping

That is quite a difference. Granted the Captivator would now be 1978 with shipping and amp so it does become a lot closer.

567 dollars more for me, 267 dollars more now for a Submersive.

I was completely impressed with the Submersive. How on earth can a sub that small almost keep up with the Cap monster for movies (IMO) and edge it out for music? Amazing sub. Who knows, maybe some day I'll own one. I don't think I'll ever be "done" with upgrading the bass in my room.

I stand by my statement from my write up that I would still take the Cap if I had the choice between the 2 subs, but not by much.
post #191 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Although it's still interesting to me how it appears that at least 3 people at the meet felt the JTR offered a tactile experience that wasn't matched by any of the other units in the room.

everyone going into this was expecting that. that's why i asked if it was done blind

i also find it interesting that the subM measured higher, the cap measured lower (because the walls were flexing and causing phase cancellations) i guess the walls flexing phase issue only effected the SPL meter and not the people ?
post #192 of 553
the whole thing is just a bit odd to me and I don't pretend to have all the answers (or even half of them, lol).

the guys did a great job documenting their experiences though, even if the measurements seem to mildly rub up against them here and there.

James
post #193 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

everyone going into this was expecting that. that's why i asked if it was done blind

i also find it interesting that the subM measured higher, the cap measured lower (because the walls were flexing and causing phase cancellations) i guess the walls flexing phase issue only effected the SPL meter and not the people ?

Don't run too far with the flexing walls ideas, it's only a proposed possibility. Even if it contributed, my gut says something else is also at work.
post #194 of 553
Thread Starter 
Remember the Captivator fires forward and is ported forward. Directly towards the listening/seating position. The front two seats honestly felt like there was a "box fan on high" level of air that would hit you everytime the sub hit hard, It was ridiculous, the side two seats felt the air but not to the same level. The seats behind that - that only counsil was sitting in at that time didn't get much wind at all. That may be why counsil wasn't as "impressed" according to his subjective comments with the captivator as the first row seating was!. The towel placed below the captivator was shaking and blowing around like it was in a Flordia hurricane! Dust and cat hair and fuzzballs that were previously un-noticed were flying around the room like some sort of sand storm when the cap was playing. You can see a bit of that, even on my low quality mobile phone video I posted in my subjective reviews. Those things were shooting around and getting caught up in the projector's light beam and just added to the craziness we felt and heard! Note: In that video I took, it was actually a rather calm scene in the war of the worlds. I wish we would have rewinded the clip and played back the scene that made me want to get out video recorder in the first place! Luke's cap blew back all the way to the seating area one time! In the video you see it only blowing back a couple feet -- but it is still obviously VERY impressive air movement caused by that driver's excursion and front port!

None of this was happening when the Submersive played. Remember the Submersive is side firing too. So the subs fire off parallel to the front screen wall which probably was detracting from the punch and "feel" we got with the front firing and ported captivator!

That "extra" element of seeing and feeling the bass may have had everything to do with our experience, but you can't discount that. It's obvious that most of use sure didn't! I still say the Captivator went well beyond my expectations, and was clearly superior, as in not even close, for my personal preference in movie watching. That said, the Submersive was ohhhh so smooth in music, as in nearly perfect. As I mentioned earlier -- it was the ONLY sub in the lineup that we finished the music clips and I totally just wanted to listen to the whole set of clips again. While the other subs sounded good to great, the Submersive was like a lullaby, a mythological siren if you will -- in that you can do nothing against the power of her song!!! I didn't even want to get out of my chair when the Submersive finished playing the music clips. I just wanted to relax and relish what I had just experienced!!! The other's obviously felt the same, because nobody jumped up after that one. We all walked out of the room with a relaxed grin. I chuckled at Randy who had been reserved on comments all day, he said that sounded good...really good. (and by his cheshire cat smile you knew he meant it sounded angelic!) -- For music playback the Submersive was nearly nothing short of amazing (even by our collective rankings), but the Captivator was to movie playback what the Submersive was to music, at least from the front row!
post #195 of 553
Even though everyone involved did a great job, there are still a number of unknowns that could be contributing to the confusion of the SPL numbers. What is the FR at the location where the SPL measurements were taken? The room effected the submersive and the cap differently, so who knows what the two responses would look like. Also, remember the FR responses were taken at 75 - 80db while the movies were at over 100db. We don't know what the responses look like at those higher levels. They could be quite different than at the lower level. Either way, both are great subs with slightly different design goals.

-Mike
post #196 of 553
I agree with virtually all of the sentiments thus far. I just feel a bit ignorant and "duped" if indeed bosso's correct about the Seaton of course having more output down real low AND just about everywhere else outside of ~20hz.

As carp mentioned, the value of the Cap is undeniable...even at its increased price-tag, but had I known I'd have my cake and eat it too (output + musicality) with the Seaton, I would have likely sprung the $$$'s.

Oh well, reality is these look like VERY competitive subs and I'm (and others) still way ahead of the curve with the onions I have left in my wallet.

James
post #197 of 553
Everyone involved should be commended for their contributions. Thank you all very much. I enjoyed watching the streaming video, with its surprisingly decent audio. I'm guessing due to corner loading/boundary effects, the LF coming through the feed was quite strong. During peaks, it exhibited some subtle overload somewhere in the chain,... but that didn't diminish the vicarious manner in which I enjoyed the little bit that I saw.

In no way am I criticizing your effort, nothing could be further from the truth. Each GTG offers insight on how best to move forward with each subsequent event. Each of you were generous with your time and contributions here.

In the planning thread, prior to the GTG, I posted the room will most likely weigh heavily on the impressions. Just like any room, unless great effort is put forth wrt optimizing the response in time and frequency, the room's signature filters each product's output in the modal region. The previous shootout that Madaeel put forth, clearly shows the room's domination;



The various measurements put up for the recent GTG illustrate a similar effect. The room dominates. Obviously, we all know this but having the time to deal with it is an entirely different manner. I also suggested, it would be ideal to eliminate lesser offerings, and have a head to head shootout with the strongest two products. With more focus on the strongest performers, allowing more time to optimize them to the space. A more detailed analysis of each products strengths and weaknesses would be illuminated for the participants, and then for them to subsequently share with the forum. Once optimized, even though sub placement and LP determine a great deal, one could get a good perspective on the two products capabilities wrt output and extension.

Now my opinion on the room's transfer function, and ability to eat bass, I'm not so sure the diaphragmatic wall motion is responsible for the discrepancy. Also, what Bosso said regarding spectral content is spot on. You've got to examine the spectral content of the material, @ "x" spl. The EL curves illustrate to us how much energy may be present, can have little impact on our perception of the perceived loudness.

Loudness is an ambiguous, and highly subjective term. It attempts to describe the ability of the ear's perception of sound. The sound intensity, must be factored by the ear's sensitivity, to the particular spectral content contained in the sound. This constitutes the equal loudness curves. To more realistically assess sound loudness, the ear's sensitivity curves must be considered. Does this have something to do with the discrepancy? Who knows, perhaps it was merely placement, and the manner in which each product loaded the space, and the exact LP of each individual.

As all of us know, other subconscious influences factor in on one's subjective evaluation as well. An entire litany of bias' influences play a role whether we realize it or not. That said, those influences may, or may not have changed anything wrt to the outcome of the tabulating of the scoring. Our senses and perceptions can be easily fooled. That's why measurements, combined with a thorough theoretical understanding of a different sub-woofer topologies (inherent capabilities), are indispensable in helping to understand our subjective perceptions.

Great job in this evaluation, especially in the planning stages and product relevance. The vented HSU, and Cap are two that get considerable posting attention here at AVS. A SVS sub should be included in any GTG due to their solid design and driver quality. The sealed Epik showed it has few faults/high value. The Submersive rocked the show like it should. It's theoretically superior, and any dual opposed, well designed/constructed, highly capable sub would. IMO, the Epik and the Seaton are the two most relevant sealed subs available today.

So yes, the relevance of the products was superb. The evaluation and subjective impressions were very interesting. The outdoor ground-plane stuff is the gold standard. However, the in room realistic application GTG/Shootouts such as this are very cool. A multi-day, elimination type shootout would be awesome. I know, realistically, that's tough to pull off. Top tier subs, representing each genre, could be included.

If I ever get my IB done, a GTG/Shootout including an IB would be very cool For that matter, any future shootout would be cool in the presence of an IB or any custom, difficult to move sub.


Thanks a lot for your efforts gentlemen.

btw; IMO the discrepancy must be associated with the placement of the sub, or listener.
LL
post #198 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

If I ever get my IB done, a GTG/Shootout including an IB would be very cool For that matter, any future shootout would be cool in the presence of an IB or any custom, difficult to move sub.


This is a great thread for me to learn how to do a sub shootout.
There was a HEMI meet at my home this past week, including a "informal" sub shootout compared to you guys, I have a IB sub.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1322007.

I'll host a HEMI gathering in Spring 2012, and the next sub shootout will involve more planning and time allocated for the actual meet.
post #199 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Remember the Captivator fires forward and is ported forward. Directly towards the listening/seating position. The front two seats honestly felt like they were in a wind tunnel. It was ridiculous, the side two seats felt the air but not to the same level. The seats behind that - that only counsil was sitting in at that time didn't get much wind at all. That may be why counsil wasn't as "impressed" according to his subjective comments with the captivator as the first row seating was!.

Again. I did not feel much air from the Captivator, but I was behind everyone else. I could see the dust in the air and the towel flapping like crazy. All I felt was the room pressurize.

The only time I felt any major air was with the SVS (which was the down-firing model), which the air must have traveled under the front seats and moved my pant legs.

The SubMersive completely pressurized the room from where I was sitting. At least twice as much as the Cap.

All of this is totally and 100% subjective.

In conclusion, get the Cap if you plan on placing it in front you. You will find yourself in a windstorm. If pressurization is what you desire, get the SubMersive. Each to their own.
post #200 of 553
^ surely if it's flapping pant legs 10' away there has to be quite a bit of room "pressurization" going on simultaneously, lol? Regardless whether your pant legs in particular were being targeted. Honestly, I'd expect either sub to thump chests in all but the largest and/or difficult rooms.

I'd guess, as a few have already noted, that the sub's respective position(s) and their driver orientation(s) had much to do with who felt what, when, and where.

James
post #201 of 553
When I mention a "hit in chest" feeling I am talking about the feeling of being hit in the chest. When I mention pressurization, I am talking about the pressurize I feel all over my body, most especially in my ears.
post #202 of 553
^ pressurization from the same frequencies and output that provide a "hit in the chest" albeit from a constant/continuous perspective?

I'm being facetious, but it seems to me that either can be simply a matter of the duration of the identical freq and spl.

a quick tap from a 15hz organ note: hit in the chest (not necessarily a hollywood gunshot hit)

few seconds or longer of the same note: pressurization.

I realize you can be seated immediately near a subwoofer and the two may not be immediately interchangeable, but at the distances we're talking about, I'd anticipate that both should be able to occur with either of these units.

but I'm not going to tell anyone what they felt, either.

James
post #203 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

When I mention a "hit in chest" feeling I am talking about the feeling of being hit in the chest. When I mention pressurization, I am talking about the pressurize I feel all over my body, most especially in my ears.

Was there a frequency response given from your seat? I have a feeling the seat you were in had much better lower frequencies which accounted for the submersive to pressurize better. It also could have a peak in the wheel house of the submersive so who knows. I have taken a measurement at every seat to see which is best and which one is the worst. Of course I sit in the best seat but not one is bad in my room. I love my room!!!
post #204 of 553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Was there a frequency response given from your seat? I have a feeling the seat you were in had much better lower frequencies which accounted for the submersive to pressurize better. It also could have a peak in the wheel house of the submersive so who knows. I have taken a measurement at every seat to see which is best and which one is the worst. Of course I sit in the best seat but not one is bad in my room. I love my room!!!

No frequency response was gathered from counsil's seat, just from the front four main seats.
post #205 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No frequency response was gathered from counsil's seat, just from the front four main seats.

I figured that which is why we are guessing.

I have to say other than optimizing each sub to their potential you guys did a great job. It is much easier to compare 2-3 subs at a time and optimize them.
post #206 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Again. I did not feel much air from the Captivator, but I was behind everyone else. I could see the dust in the air and the towel flapping like crazy. All I felt was the room pressurize.

The only time I felt any major air was with the SVS (which was the down-firing model), which the air must have traveled under the front seats and moved my pant legs.

The SubMersive completely pressurized the room from where I was sitting. At least twice as much as the Cap.

All of this is totally and 100% subjective.

In conclusion, get the Cap if you plan on placing it in front you. You will find yourself in a windstorm. If pressurization is what you desire, get the SubMersive. Each to their own.

I remember making a comment about "feeling it in my head" on one of the Submersive clips. I don't recall that with the Captivator but I felt it more all over my body with the Captivator. Not twice as much, but enough to notice the difference. If the Submersive was twice the tactile feel of the HSU/Empire (felt more like 3 times actually) then were talking maybe 10% more from the Cap compared to the Sumbersive.

Like you said, all subjective.
post #207 of 553
http://www.kchtenthusiasts.com/kc_sub_shootout_2011.zip

- 129mb zipped file.
- 5 minutes, 960x540 mp4 file

Just a quick 5 minute string of footage from the meet. (The bg noise from the Pearl Harbor clip is kind of funny) I didn't have a chance to edit it or anything, but it might give people a better idea of the space layout.
post #208 of 553
Broken link, I had to delete the localhost at the beginning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

http://http://www.kchtenthusiasts.co...otout_2011.zip

- 129mb zipped file.
- 5 minutes, 960x540 mp4 file

Just a quick 5 minute string of footage from the meet. (The bg noise from the Pearl Harbor clip is kind of funny) I didn't have a chance to edit it or anything, but it might give people a better idea of the space layout.
post #209 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

Broken link, I had to delete the localhost at the beginning.

Fixed.
post #210 of 553
Damn. I used to live in Olathe, KS and I would have loved to have been there.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › 2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results