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2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 8

post #211 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ pressurization from the same frequencies and output that provide a "hit in the chest" albeit from a constant/continuous perspective?

I'm being facetious, but it seems to me that either can be simply a matter of the duration of the identical freq and spl.

a quick tap from a 15hz organ note: hit in the chest (not necessarily a hollywood gunshot hit)

15hz isn't a hit in the chest though, that's farther up the range in the 50-70hz and its where horns excell because of their bump that have. Horns may have 5-12db upswing in this region.


Also this testing really validates the statement that horns can be very room dependent and require a good setup. Was the cap placed in a corner with the mouth 18" from the corner?

15hz and below are more like going into the deep ocean before equalizing your ears, its not a hit in the chest though just more and more pressurization.
post #212 of 553
Great thread and thanks to all for their feeback! Awesome stuff guys!
I pasted some info about the SubMersive HP from the Seaton forum.

Does anyone know which mode was utilized during these tests/listening sessions?

Quote:
PGM SEL set to IN (program 1) = original SubMersive response: +/-3dB 19-200Hz

PGM SEL set to OUT (program 2) = secondary, extended SubMersive HP response: +/-3dB 15-200Hz.
While at first glance it sounds like this response extends lower, the real difference is a uniform lifting of the response by ~3.5dB below 20Hz tapering to equal response of program 1 above ~50Hz.
post #213 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post
Great thread and thanks to all for their feeback! Awesome stuff guys!
I pasted some info about the SubMersive HP from the Seaton forum.

PGM SEL set to IN (program 1) = original SubMersive response: +/-3dB 19-200Hz

PGM SEL set to OUT (program 2) = secondary, extended SubMersive HP response: +/-3dB 15-200Hz.


While at first glance it sounds like this response extends lower, the real difference is a uniform lifting of the response by ~3.5dB below 20Hz tapering to equal response of program 1 above ~50Hz.
Does anyone know which mode was utilized during these tests/listening sessions?
Here is a nearfield measurement of the 2 programs:



I too would be interested to know which Program was in use during the shootout. I looked closely at the picture posted on the first page, but it's not quite clear enough to see if the button is in or out. Randy?

Also, where the subs gain-matched or level-matched prior to the tests?

Craig
post #214 of 553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Here is a nearfield measurement of the 2 programs:



I too would be interested to know which Program was in use during the shootout. I looked closely at the picture posted on the first page, but it's not quite clear enough to see if the button is in or out. Randy?

Also, where the subs gain-matched or level-matched prior to the tests?

Craig
For music, the subs were level matched to 75dB - the same as the mains. All music tests were played at -10dB from reference on the Onkyo TX-NR1007.

For movies the receiver was turned up 6dB for the subwoofer level to ensure SPL readings were only taking sub levels --- the gain on the amps was turned up to the owners preference on the Yamaha, the Submersive, and the Captivator. The other subs individual gain was left the same as it was from the music listening. The volume on the receiver was pushed by each of the owners -- and was lowered or raised at their discretion.
post #215 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz
15hz isn't a hit in the chest though, that's farther up the range in the 50-70hz and its where horns excell because of their bump that have. Horns may have 5-12db upswing in this region.

Also this testing really validates the statement that horns can be very room dependent and require a good setup. Was the cap placed in a corner with the mouth 18" from the corner?

15hz and below are more like going into the deep ocean before equalizing your ears, its not a hit in the chest though just more and more pressurization.
Oh boy...the last time I heard a 1/2 sec 125db 15hz tone I didn't recollect the ocean, lol.

And are you alluding to the Cap being horn-loaded? It's simply a bass relex design.

James
post #216 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post
15hz isn't a hit in the chest though, that's farther up the range in the 50-70hz and its where horns excell because of their bump that have. Horns may have 5-12db upswing in this region.
since 50-70hz is omnidirectional, wouldn't you feel it in your back also as well as your chest and all over your body ?

just kidding. i get told all the time that you can't locate those frequencies
post #217 of 553
So, wow, a lot of talk about the SubM and Cap, as I am sure it would be hard not to. But at $2300 and $3200 for those tested subs shipped...

Maybe you guys could talk some more about your impressions of the Empire?
post #218 of 553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

So, wow, a lot of talk about the SubM and Cap, as I am sure it would be hard not to. But at $2300 and $3200 for those tested subs shipped...

Maybe you guys could talk some more about your impressions of the Empire?

There is a reason there is a lot of talk about those two. It's because they were in a different class as compared to the others when compared side by side. From your thread you'd be willing to spend 1,500 to 2,500. You have 6,000 cubic foot to fill. I'd buy a pair of subs for that space, because your room is a bit weird. You can put one sub on each side of the L & R mains. Ported would allow you to "feel" the bass a bit more - potentially because your seating position looks to be close to the front of the room. In that case I'd got with a pair of HSU VTF-15H's for a couple reasons.

1) You have no idea what sound you like best according to your thread, and you don't want to really do a DIY build. The HSU VTF-15 lets you choose your sound - ported, sealed - 16hz or 22hz tune etc. This helps you make sure you aren't stuck with something you don't like that much. It's a beautiful and capable sub with awesome vendor support.
2) They are ported forward, meaning you can feel the air movement a bit from your seating position - this is quite fun and really makes the movie experience. It might be important to have this tactile advantage in your super long odd shaped room.

If you purchase one high end sub you likely won't be able to put it in the middle of your smaller nook for the home theatre stuff, meaning you may not get good/even response at each seat in your seating area. Thus two subs would be better to ensure you cover the seating position IMO. I'm glad you discarded the purchase of two test F12 subs. That's a waste of your time and money in a room that big. As you saw in this review not everyone thinks the same sound is the best. I didn't really know which sound I liked the best either on subs, but from our KC meet I learned I liked ported deep sounding subs. That allows for the HSU, SVS, and Captivator in my opinon. I personally would buy any of those three subs before the epik. The next guy who responds might recommend the epik because he likes that sound better. IE my friend echaot said to me that in his opinion the epik clearly won our meet because for $800 it offered the nearly the cleanest sound and he didn't miss the deep sound, and didn't agree that the other subs sounded "deeper". Note: He also voted the Yamaha to have a 5 on deep notes in the music section when everyone else voted it much lower (he was sitting in the Audessey calibrated seat too) So it probably depends on how low you hear low frequency tones as well.

Because I didn't feel the Epik delivered on the deep notes in my room, I voted it at fifth place. It sounded GREAT up top however. For me I know I don't hear below 17hz --- so anything that happens below that, but I do like to hear as low as possible. For that the ported subs delievered it more readily to my ears.

Perhaps counsil will speak up. I understand he has five, yes five Epik empires. He also has four SVS PC-13 Ultras.
post #219 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Oh boy...the last time I heard a 1/2 sec 125db 15hz tone I didn't recollect the ocean, lol.

And are you alluding to the Cap being horn-loaded? It's simply a bass relex design.

James

Whoops, I always get the captivator and the orbit shifter mixed up.


But yes, the sub 15hz content really is just pressurization and the chest kick that people talk about so much is much higher up. Try 10 and 5hz, 5hz is just like 10hz but only there half the time
post #220 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Whoops, I always get the captivator and the orbit shifter mixed up.

But yes, the sub 15hz content really is just pressurization and the chest kick that people talk about so much is much higher up. Try 10 and 5hz, 5hz is just like 10hz but only there half the time

I don't want to continue to argue the point, but those chest thumps are generally associated with movie gunshots and car crashes, etc that yes, tend to be heavy in the 60-80 area, are usually MUCH more dynamic, possess complimentary upper freq's, and appear MUCH more often than their quick-hit, low tone counterparts.

There are ultra low moments 15-25hz (the ship blast in The CCOBButton comes to mind) that hit for a second that have the same effect...at least in my living room- with a bit of pressurization, lol.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the majority of kicks come in the upper area, just that the lower area can deliver a quick thrust too. I have few organ tracks with rhythmic stops and starts that punch my living room around!

James
post #221 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

There are ultra low moments 15-25hz (the ship blast in The CCOBButton comes to mind) that hit for a second that have the same effect...at least in my living room- with a bit of pressurization, lol.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the majority of kicks come in the upper area, just that the lower area can deliver a quick thrust too. I have few organ tracks with rhythmic stops and starts that punch my living room around!

James

is it possible the CCOBButton has accompanying frequencies in the 30-80hz range ?

as far as the organ stops. i've been running some pipe organ music through spec-lab and almost always when there's a 32' stop engaged (16hz on the low C) the organist almost always has 16' & 8' stops accompanying the 32' stops on the pedal. you could run your organ tracks through spec-lab and probably see the same thing

if you just pulled out a 32" stop all by itself with no other stops there's not much "attack" on the notes on the bottom octave. there might be some with reeds but they are probably coming from the harmonics and not the fundamental note

i would think for under 25hz content to "kick" it would have to be really really loud
post #222 of 553
Thread Starter 
The Final Music Ranking is now posted. It took me a long time to tabulate, because the scores are on a bunch of paper sheets and I tripple checked everything before I posted it to make sure I got it exactly right.

FINAL MOVIE RANKING:
The collective individual scores recorded and averaged during our testing revealed the subs ranked into the following order for finest overall movie watching enjoyment:
1. JTR Captivator
2. Seaton Submersive
3. Epik Empire
4. Yamaha CW218V
5. HSU VTF-15H
6. SVS PB-12+
7. Jenson MS500
8. Jamo D7sub

You can find all the original individual scores in the first page, and see what the individual strengths and weaknesses were for each sub. In some cases a sub might have a high or low overall rating, but have a noticable strength or weakness.


The scoring on the movie section was compiled to have the first three columns be the same unannounced individual per column. These three individuals were the only three reviewers who rated every sub. 3 other people stepped in and out of reviewing, and thus when you see more than 3 numbers (more than three reviewers) there were additional reviewers who were not present for every sub's demo in the movie section. counsil was present for the movies in entirety, but did not rate the subs, rather just wrote down SPL measurements for the movie section. (He did rate in the music section because we weren't taking SPLs)
post #223 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The Final Music Ranking is now posted. It took me a long time to tabulate, because the scores are on a bunch of paper sheets and I tripple checked everything before I posted it to make sure I got it exactly right.

FINAL MOVIE RANKING:
The collective individual scores recorded and averaged during our testing revealed the subs ranked into the following order for finest overall movie watching enjoyment:
1. JTR Captivator
2. Seaton Submersive
3. Epik Empire
4. Yamaha CW218V
5. HSU VTF-15H
6. SVS PB-12+
7. Jenson MS500
8. Jamo D7sub

You can find all the original individual scores in the first page, and see what the individual strengths and weaknesses were for each sub. In some cases a sub might have a high or low overall rating, but have a noticable strength or weakness.


The scoring on the movie section was compiled to have the first three columns be the same unannounced individual per column. These three individuals were the only three reviewers who rated every sub. 3 other people stepped in and out of reviewing, and thus when you see more than 3 numbers (more than three reviewers) there were additional reviewers who were not present for every sub's demo in the movie section. counsil did not rate the subs, but rather just wrote down SPL measurements for the movie section. (He did rate in the music section because we weren't taking SPLs)

Holy Cow, I wasn't expecting the Empire to be that high on the movie rating after the music/overall impressions. Oh well, I already ordered a Rythmic FV15. I think I would have gone w/ Empire though if I would have waited for the results.

I am surprised HSU didn't win over Empire in the Movie section as it kept being noted that the HSU could be "Felt More".
post #224 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Perhaps counsil will speak up. I understand he has five, yes five Epik empires. He also has four SVS PC-13 Ultras.

Do what? That's not all in one room is it?
post #225 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96redformula View Post

Holy Cow, I wasn't expecting the Empire to be that high on the movie rating after the music/overall impressions. Oh well, I already ordered a Rythmic FV15. I think I would have gone w/ Empire though if I would have waited for the results.

I am surprised HSU didn't win over Empire in the Movie section as it kept being noted that the HSU could be "Felt More".


Too many factors involved IMO for the this to be an end all judge for movie performance. I was pushing the HSU too hard, and compressing it. On Ironman I had low db (2 more than Jensen?), and I had the receiver at reference with bass +6. It was too much for it, and add the fact that the mains would be still calling for peaks, would be drowning out the sub more. What I found interesting is that towards the end I was dissapointed in performance (it kicks at my place) and sort of conceded and turned receiver level down, is the two movie clips scored high on, THX and Kung Fu Panda. (also saw how tough they were on the other subs before)

It is easy to see how very subjective with differing views with subjective comments. I also find it interesting that the Yamaha pro sub (gain turned up) scored higher than both the HSU and SVS, as we all know has a very steep drop off? Another of Bosso's great posts shows how important the spectral content along with room response is. The HSU and Cap were the only two front firing subs and aimed directly into room. Lots of variables at play in playing movie scenes once or twice with uncalibrated subs hooked up, poorly placed, in a tough room. I had a blast and hope to be able to attend or have another get together/comparison soon! Counsil let me know if I can be of any assistance with a pb13 vs. submersive comparison. If not I will bring my own lawn chair and just sit in the corner b/c I would love to hear the comparison. Let me know if you would like to do an in depth empire 15h comparison sometime.

Anyways to get to the point, there wasn't a Rythmik FV15 over that day.
post #226 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Do what? That's not all in one room is it?

Only 4 empires and 4 svs in one room. The empire he brought to meet is the living room sub!
post #227 of 553
Just for fun and to summarize, I averaged the Music and Move sound quality scores as well as the aesthetic/WAF and Build Quality. No offense, but I didn't include the Jamo and Jensen as they were not even tested/auditioned in some areas, and when they were in others, they were nearly universally 7th or 8th, respectively.

Further, since there's really no fair/equitable method of equating the BQ/WAF ranks into a % (is the 5th ranked sub really ~33% worse than the 2nd, for instance?), I chose not to incorporate them into a score, but instead listed them separately. If the original squad wants to define percentages/letter grades for the ranks we can then add them in as part of a final score (perhaps as 10-25% of the final average which is easy peasy to do).

SQ figures were rounded to the nearest half percentile. BQ/WAF to the nearest 1/2 rank.

I think this REALLY reveals how close this was.

1. Seaton Submersive: Music/Movies: 97% Build Quality/WAF Rank: 3.5

2. JTR Captivator: Music/Movies: 96.5% Build Quality/WAF Rank: 3.0

3. EPIK Empire: Music/Movies: 76.5% Build Quaility/WAF Rank: 4

4. HSU VTF 15H: Music/Movies: 75.5% Build Quality/WAF Rank: 2.5

5. Yamaha CW218V: Music/Movies: 71.5% Build Quality/WAF Rank: 6.5

6. SVS PB 12+: Music/Movies: 69% (yeah, lol) Build Quality/WAF Rank: 1.5


Hope I didn't step on any toes, just had a minute and thought this might be helpful.


James
post #228 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Anyways to get to the point, there wasn't a Rythmik FV15 over that day.
I knew that .
post #229 of 553
So who wants to sell me a Submersive at half price?
post #230 of 553
Honestly, from a pure value standpoint, I think spending $2200 for a Submersive over $18-1900 for a passive Cap and an amp would be a very tough call given how close they seem to be in performance.

Nice to have the choice though, to be sure.

James
post #231 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96redformula View Post
Holy Cow, I wasn't expecting the Empire to be that high on the movie rating after the music/overall impressions. Oh well, I already ordered a Rythmic FV15. I think I would have gone w/ Empire though if I would have waited for the results.

I am surprised HSU didn't win over Empire in the Movie section as it kept being noted that the HSU could be "Felt More".
I've posted this before but just in case some have missed it. The HSU is an awesome sub. What I heard in Archea's room was not the HSU. It was an imposter -or -

1. Luke forgot to turn it on.
2. It wasn't plugged in.
3. The receiver was set to mains large and no sub.

I'm exaggerating of course, but seriously - the room was not letting the HSU sound like it normally does. It was fantastic in my room and better in Luke's.

I'm assuming that the Empire was equally as ripped off in Archea's room, but maybe sealed subs had a better fighting chance in there compared to ported?
post #232 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post
Great thread and thanks to all for their feeback! Awesome stuff guys!
I pasted some info about the SubMersive HP from the Seaton forum.

Does anyone know which mode was utilized during these tests/listening sessions?
I didn't mess with the amp after it was installed except to level match to 75 db. I think the default is pushed in so I believe it was in (normal) the entire time.
post #233 of 553
Yeah, I agree carp. There's just too many awesome accounts on either sub to take this one snap shot as gospel.

What I think occurred too though has to do with the fact that because the Cap and Submersive are such raw performers (and crucially, more expensive) they didn't really "help" these subs at all in an 8 sub audition.

I just look at this GTG as yet another piece of information that a prospective buyer can use to make a decision...and of course cause more pre-purchasing gut-ache, lol.

James
post #234 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
Yeah, I agree carp. There's just too many awesome accounts on either sub to take this one snap shot as gospel.

What I think occurred too though has to do with the fact that because the Cap and Submersive are such raw performers (and crucially, more expensive) they didn't really "help" these subs at all in an 8 sub audition.

I just look at this GTG as yet another piece of information that a prospective buyer can use to make a decision...and of course cause more pre-purchasing gut-ache, lol.

James
I thinks that's a very valid point. If you were to do a comparison based on $$$, you would have 2 or 3 Epiks or HSU's going up against a single Submersive or Captivator. Obviously, that woulld change everything.
post #235 of 553
Just a passing thought.

If you listen to a high spl output sub that blows wind up your skirt and then you listen to a lower outputting sub, how would that affect your subjective thoughts?
Would you think "wow, that sub isn't showing us anything". Know what i'm saying?

Grats guys on your demo day, I can't imagine how long of a day it was for you all, it must have been fun just the same.

Jim
post #236 of 553
^ I'm sure it would be different for anyone. For me, I won't deny (especially for movies) that the more "physical" the feeling, the better. Realizing that the "whoosh" is bringing sound with it is simply the nature of the design, obviously. Further, the Submersive certainly didn't sound like it was providing any kite-sustaining breeze and it finished ahead of the Cap, so go figure.

The reality for most I think is that the airflow- even at 8-10 ft- won't reach most in their listening postions.

Although it's still fun!

James
post #237 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post
Just a passing thought.

If you listen to a high spl output sub that blows wind up your skirt and then you listen to a lower outputting sub, how would that affect your subjective thoughts?
Would you think "wow, that sub isn't showing us anything". Know what i'm saying?

Grats guys on your demo day, I can't imagine how long of a day it was for you all, it must have been fun just the same.

Jim
That is also food for thought. It's like in the showroom, if you see a TV that is calibrated brighter, it stands out over a less bright one even if it is not necessarily a better picture.
post #238 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That is also food for thought. It's like in the showroom, if you see a TV that is calibrated brighter, it stands out over a less bright one even if it is not necessarily a better picture.

Exactly, the brighter TV would make the lessor one look muted (or even washed out) side by side in comparison.
post #239 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ I'm sure it would be different for anyone. For me, I won't deny (especially for movies) that the more "physical" the feeling, the better. Realizing that the "whoosh" is bringing sound with it is simply the nature of the design, obviously. Further, the Submersive certainly didn't sound like it was providing any kite-sustaining breeze and it finished ahead of the Cap, so go figure.

The reality for most I think is that the airflow- even at 8-10 ft- won't reach most in their listening postions.

Although it's still fun!

James

Re: the Captivator airflow, I don't seem to get quite the same fan effect from my Captivator. I think it might have something to do with the 15hz native tuning on mine. Since there is going to be generally less content at 15hz vs 20hz, the ports aren't working as hard as often.
post #240 of 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Honestly, from a pure value standpoint, I think spending $2200 for a Submersive over $18-1900 for a passive Cap and an amp would be a very tough call given how close they seem to be in performance.

Nice to have the choice though, to be sure.

James

how are you coming up with that price for the cap ?
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