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Denon 3311ci keeps shutting off

post #1 of 32
5/15/11 at 11:06pm
Thread Starter 
Hi guys,

I have a Denon 3311ci hooked up to PSB imagine T's, C, S's, which are rated at 4 ohms. on the back of the reciever it says its rated to 6 ohms. ive read some reviews that the average measurement for these speakers was around 6ohm with dips below that. The company from whom i bought my speakers from said that the denon should run those just fine.

I spent yesterday watching tron at high volume and listening to hip hop music with no problems. but today when i was just experimenting with different types of music to get a feel for the quality of these speakers my amp shuts off when i was listening to cindy Lauper - girls just want to have fun. tried it a couple more times with the same result, i wasnt even listening to it as loud as tron or the hip hop music. Then just now i put avatar in and forwarded to the scene where he is trying to subdue his flying animal thing and when the animal jumps at him the reciever shut off....

Is my reciever not strong enough to handle the speakers??
Do i have to buy a separate amp? that would suck considering i just bought the whole imagine line of speakers, Rythmik FV15, power conditioner with surge protector, and entertainment center to sit everything in and my pocket is definately feeling the emptiness....

Opinions and suggestions would be appreciated

thank you

Steven
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post #2 of 32
5/15/11 at 11:10pm
Thread Starter 
Forgot to mention that i have my speakers set to large at the moment while my subwoofer gets fixed if that makes any difference.
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post #3 of 32
5/16/11 at 4:42am
As you noted the 3311CI is only designed to work with 6Ω+ speakers, however, at average/moderate volume (ie. -20db) you should be fine. The issue is you're running your speakers as LARGE and requiring too much from the 3311CI so until you can reset them to SMALL with an 80hz crossover and use the sub again, you'll especially want to keep the volume down.

For more info or questions on your 3311CI, join us in the Denon 3311CI Owner's thread.
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post #4 of 32
5/16/11 at 6:44am
Return/sell power conditioner and buy two channel power amplifier for your fronts. 3311 is not capable to handle your speakers without external help.
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post #5 of 32
5/16/11 at 12:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post
Return/sell power conditioner and buy two channel power amplifier for your fronts. 3311 is not capable to handle your speakers without external help.
hi,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread.

would i be ok with just buying a 2 channel amp from emotiva? UPA-2? i might be able to afford that without having to return my surge protector/ power conditioner.i was going to eventually buy the XPA-3 to run the fronts but i cant afford that one right now. so the upa-2 would pick up the front LR, would the reciever have enough juice to power the 4ohm Center and Surrounds?

Thanks

Steven
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post #6 of 32
5/16/11 at 12:46pm
What volume did you set the Denon at? I've never set mine past -15dB, but feel I could greatly benefit from separate amps.
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post #7 of 32
5/16/11 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post
What volume did you set the Denon at? I've never set mine past -15dB, but feel I could greatly benefit from separate amps.
hi,

thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread.

the first day i was listening at high volume levels. like 0db to +3db and it was doing fine. I watched tron at those same volume levels. but then the next day i was listening at -10db and it cut off
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post #8 of 32
5/16/11 at 1:16pm
Maybe you damaged a speaker listening at those levels. Not saying you did. But it can happen
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post #9 of 32
5/16/11 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Maybe you damaged a speaker listening at those levels. Not saying you did. But it can happen

what kind of damage could i have done? would that be causing my reciever to be shutting off now?
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post #10 of 32
5/16/11 at 1:52pm
This is the first time I've looked at the PSB Imagine...

It is a 4ohm speaker. The Denon is rated at 8ohm. There "is" the problem, sort of.

Here is a little "wattage" lesson(in overly laymans terms).

Your Denon is rated at 125 watts(at I presume 8ohm). Attaching 4 ohm speakers DOUBLES that to 250(not "exactly"...you can look up ohm and its effect on amplifier power on your own time).

The Denon probably only has enough "heat dissipation" to sweat off the heat generated by 125(probably has a cushion...but how much, we don't know).

since you are asking for more than 125, and you are forcing it to deliver 250(probably more like 160) you are over-running its ability to stay cool, so it does the only thing it can...shut off.
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post #11 of 32
5/16/11 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

This is the first time I've looked at the PSB Imagine...

It is a 4ohm speaker. The Denon is rated at 8ohm. There "is" the problem, sort of.

Here is a little "wattage" lesson(in overly laymans terms).

Your Denon is rated at 125 watts(at I presume 8ohm). Attaching 4 ohm speakers DOUBLES that to 250(not "exactly"...you can look up ohm and its effect on amplifier power on your own time).

The Denon probably only has enough "heat dissipation" to sweat off the heat generated by 125(probably has a cushion...but how much, we don't know).

since you are asking for more than 125, and you are forcing it to deliver 250(probably more like 160) you are over-running its ability to stay cool, so it does the only thing it can...shut off.

hi schan, nice to see you over here.

if i bought a 2 channel amp from emotiva UPA-2 to run the FL and FR would the reciever be able to handle the Center and Surrounds?

On the back of my reciever it says it can handle 6ohms.

Thanks

Steven
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post #12 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:14pm
Here is how 8/6/4 ohm "present themselves" to an amp...

8 ohm is a Toyota Corolla.
6 ohm is a Ford F250 Diesel.
4 ohm is a diesel/electric powered ocean liner(you know...Carnival cruise lines)

(yes that is a bit of an exaggeration...but hey...)

The answer to your question is..."more than likely"...however...

If you haven't had that 3311 very long I recommend(especially since you like it loud) returning/exchanging that for a pre-pro. An Integra DHC 40.2 is around the same price as your 3311. If you plan on getting an amp for the front channel already...you can find a 3 channel amp for the other 3 very easily on Audiogon/Ebay.


Matter of fact...if you don't need 3D ability...
Integra DTC 9.8/9.9 can be had for as little as $700 (you can peruse the various Integra pre-pro forums).
Marantz made some very well thought of pre-pro as well, but they tend to be more expensive(they were more expensive when new, didn't sell overly well when new...and they don't show up for sale very often)

That is my suggestion...but you can certainly try an amp first...then see if the 3311 can handle 3 4ohm speakers.

Edit:

Just a suggestion...
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....Excellent-cond
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-channel-power

That combination, if you can live without ARC and 3D(which both have workarounds anyway), is $1250 and would completely walk all over the 3311, kick it to the curb, bite it, spit it out and ask it to get up, so it could beat on it some more, till the Denon could take no more.
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post #13 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

Here is how 8/6/4 ohm "present themselves" to an amp...

8 ohm is a Toyota Corolla.
6 ohm is a Ford F250 Diesel.
4 ohm is a diesel/electric powered ocean liner(you know...Carnival cruise lines)

(yes that is a bit of an exaggeration...but hey...)

The answer to your question is..."more than likely"...however...

If you haven't had that 3311 very long I recommend(especially since you like it loud) returning/exchanging that for a pre-pro. An Integra DHC 40.2 is around the same price as your 3311. If you plan on getting an amp for the front channel already...you can find a 3 channel amp for the other 3 very easily on Audiogon/Ebay.

Matter of fact...if you don't need 3D ability...
Integra DTC 9.8/9.9 can be had for as little as $700 (you can peruse the various Integra pre-pro forums).
Marantz made some very well thought of pre-pro as well, but they tend to be more expensive(they were more expensive when new, didn't sell overly well when new...and they don't show up for sale very often)

That is my suggestion...but you can certainly try an amp first...then see if the 3311 can handle 3 4ohm speakers.

unfortunately i dont think i can return the 3311ci. i think i have already had it too long. If i had of known i would have definately bought that integra DTC because i dont need 3D ability. but this was my first home theater purchase and i didnt know any better...
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post #14 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quanny View Post

what kind of damage could i have done? would that be causing my reciever to be shutting off now?

I once blew a speaker. I did not know I blew it at the time. When I would turn up the volume, the receiver would shut off. But it was obvious. I figured out pretty quickly that the left speaker was the culprit.

Not saying that's your problem. Just a possibility.

Your problem requires some troubleshooting. How loud can you listen to the movie scene before it shuts off? If you disconnect all speakers, does it still shut off? If it only shuts off with speakers connected, and it's happening at -10 dB, I would be disconnecting one speaker at a time, to see if it happens with any particular speaker connected, but not the rest. I would also check the wiring for shorts.
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post #15 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post



Edit:

Just a suggestion...
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....Excellent-cond
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-channel-power

That combination, if you can live without ARC and 3D(which both have workarounds anyway), is $1250 and would completely walk all over the 3311, kick it to the curb, bite it, spit it out and ask it to get up, so it could beat on it some more, till the Denon could take no more.

that looks like it would be a killer setup and thanks for taking the time to look for me. i dont know if i feel comfortable buying used... as this is my first setup and wouldnt know anything about it.

is there another setup that you could recommend??

With my denon or without it?

only thing is without it i would have to sell it. dont really know what a used 3311 goes for, basically brand new only used it for 3 days.

Thanks

Steven
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post #16 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I once blew a speaker. I did not know I blew it at the time. When I would turn up the volume, the receiver would shut off. But it was obvious. I figured out pretty quickly that the left speaker was the culprit.

Not saying that's your problem. Just a possibility.

Your problem requires some troubleshooting. How loud can you listen to the movie scene before it shuts off? If you disconnect all speakers, does it still shut off? If it only shuts off with speakers connected, and it's happening at -10 dB, I would be disconnecting one speaker at a time, to see if it happens with any particular speaker connected, but not the rest. I would also check the wiring for shorts.

i will have to do some experimenting to answer most of those questions.

but my FR does have a blown driver( crackling from the second driver)? they are shipping out a new driver for me today. i dont know if it came like that or if it happened after use.

thanks

Steven
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post #17 of 32
5/16/11 at 3:57pm
The first thing you need to do is find out what the return policy is of the place where you got it. Unless the thing sat in the box in your closet for a month before you used it, you should be able to at least exchange it.

So, where did you get it, and what else do they sell?

If this place sells the 40.2 and is willing to sell you one and an amp, they might take the 3311 back "at full price".

Also if you go where the 40.2 is sold(if they don't sell Denon) they might take it in trade.

If you are beyond returning the 3311 you'll take a hit on it, but taking a hit on it is better than continuing to use it and destroying it. A shop can tell if the receiver has been routinely run too hot...and if so Denon(actually any receiver/amp manufacturer) will say "Here's the cost to repair it"...even if it is only 4 months old.

I would never be run away from a used amp. Audiogon has a very high success rate on used equipment. The amp you buy(2 channel now, or 5 channel if you go another route) will be with you for the next 50 years. Your grandkids grandkids might still be using it.

There is an adage in A/V...
Electronics may come and go, technologies will change...but,
A good amp is forever.

Edit:

I forgot the one speaker is still broken. Try this. Temporarily unhook that speaker, hook the center up instead...go back into set-up and "remove" the center. Then listen to music "like you have been" and see if it still shuts off. A broken driver in a speaker will cause ohm fluctuations that the amp will recognize as any number of things(such as a short).

To give you an idea. If the "broken driver" is shorting out...

a short is 0hm. 0ohm equals instant amp shut down.
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post #18 of 32
5/16/11 at 4:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

The first thing you need to do is find out what the return policy is of the place where you got it. Unless the thing sat in the box in your closet for a month before you used it, you should be able to at least exchange it.

1) So, where did you get it, and what else do they sell?

2) If this place sells the 40.2 and is willing to sell you one and an amp, they might take the 3311 back "at full price".

3) Also if you go where the 40.2 is sold(if they don't sell Denon) they might take it in trade.

4) If you are beyond returning the 3311 you'll take a hit on it, but taking a hit on it is better than continuing to use it and destroying it. A shop can tell if the receiver has been routinely run too hot...and if so Denon(actually any receiver/amp manufacturer) will say "Here's the cost to repair it"...even if it is only 4 months old.

5) I would never be run away from a used amp. Audiogon has a very high success rate on used equipment. The amp you buy(2 channel now, or 5 channel if you go another route) will be with you for the next 50 years. Your grandkids grandkids might still be using it.

There is an adage in A/V...
Electronics may come and go, technologies will change...but,
A good amp is forever.

Edit:

6) I forgot the one speaker is still broken. Try this. Temporarily unhook that speaker, hook the center up instead...go back into set-up and "remove" the center. Then listen to music "like you have been" and see if it still shuts off. A broken driver in a speaker will cause ohm fluctuations that the amp will recognize as any number of things(such as a short).

To give you an idea. If the "broken driver" is shorting out...

a short is 0hm. 0ohm equals instant amp shut down.

1) got it from electronics-expo.com, and yes it did sit in my closet for like a month before i used it.

2) i dont think they sell the integra line

3) i think i have found an integra dealer like 5 miles from where i am. i will have to check to see if he will do a trade in. What is the difference between a reciever and a pre-amp?

how much does the 40.2 sell for?

4) yea that would suck if i had to pay to repair it. how much could for my denon?

6) yea i will try that. so you want me to unhook the "bad" speaker and just run the left front, center and surrounds the same way as ive been doing?

Thanks

Steven
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post #19 of 32
5/16/11 at 4:22pm
1. oops
2. Integra is never sold online
3a. receiver consists of 3 parts...tuner/pre-amp/amp
3b. pre-pro is the first "two of a receiver"...so you still need "the amp'
4 My guess, if used I'd try for a 15% hit(normal restocking charge some stores/net sites charge)
6. completely unhook the broken speaker. put(as in physically) the center on top of the broken speaker...it will now "be" the broken speaker...so you "will no longer have" a center speaker till you fix the broken one
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post #20 of 32
5/16/11 at 4:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

1. oops
2. Integra is never sold online
3a. receiver consists of 3 parts...tuner/pre-amp/amp
3b. pre-pro is the first "two of a receiver"...so you still need "the amp'
4 My guess, if used I'd try for a 15% hit(normal restocking charge some stores/net sites charge)
6. completely unhook the broken speaker. put(as in physically) the center on top of the broken speaker...it will now "be" the broken speaker...so you "will no longer have" a center speaker till you fix the broken one

1) yep

3) so i would need a 5 channel amp?

6) will do

so option 1 - get rid of my denon and get integra 40.2 and amp

option 2 - keep denon and get a 3 channel emotiva amp XPA-3

which one would be better. i would also have to figure out the cost difference of either option.

thanks

Steven
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post #21 of 32
5/16/11 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quanny View Post

so option 1 - get rid of my denon and get integra 40.2 and amp

option 2 - keep denon and get a 3 channel emotiva amp XPA-3

which one would be better. i would also have to figure out the cost difference of either option.

Keeping the 3311CI and adding the XPA-3 .... if you go the 40.2 route you downgrade to the more basic version of Audyssey MultEQ rather than MultEQ XT in the 3311CI.
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post #22 of 32
5/16/11 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Keeping the 3311CI and adding the XPA-3 .... if you go the 40.2 route you downgrade to the more basic version of Audyssey MultEQ rather than MultEQ XT in the 3311CI.

good point (although i dont really know what that means). it would also probably be the cheaper route too.

would the 3311 be ok to handle the two 4 ohm surrounds??

thanks
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post #23 of 32
5/16/11 at 6:11pm
The 4311ci is rated for 4 ohm speakers and I see they have new ones on e-bay for $1550. with free shipping.

Try calling electron expo and or Denon and explain your mistake and see if they can upgrade you to the 4311ci within your budget. If you try this make sure you ask for a manager that is authorized that can help you out. Make sure you tell them you have only used the avr for a few days.
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post #24 of 32
5/16/11 at 6:38pm
The 4311 would be a tremendous option, if they will let you do that.

The Audyssey "downgrade", to me is worth the improved EVERYTHING ELSE of the DHC 40.2.

The DHC 40.2 with a competent amp will leave even the 4311 in the dust.

Period, and simply put...

Pre-pro with an amp is greater than a receiver.

I don't care if that receiver, is any of these...
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR500...5596013&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-37-...5596065&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR5308C...5596209&sr=1-1
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post #25 of 32
5/16/11 at 7:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

The 4311 would be a tremendous option, if they will let you do that.

The Audyssey "downgrade", to me is worth the improved EVERYTHING ELSE of the DHC 40.2.

The DHC 40.2 with a competent amp will leave even the 4311 in the dust.

Period, and simply put...

Pre-pro with an amp is greater than a receiver.

I don't care if that receiver, is any of these...
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR500...5596013&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-37-...5596065&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR5308C...5596209&sr=1-1

hmmmm.... so many options and decisions to make, kind of making my head hurt

ok. so to re-cap

Option 1) get rid of denon and get integra dhc 40.2 with amp.

Pros - can handle my speakers better

cons - downgrade on the audyssey. cost more.

Option 2) Keep 3311ci and get emotiva xpa 3

Pros - less hassle, cheaper than option 1, can get the job done.

cons - maybe more expensive than option 3 if available. 2 surrounds will have to run off the 3311.

Option 3) try to upgrade to 4311 through electronic expo.

Pros - are rated at 4 ohms. cheaper than option 1

Cons - maybe they wont let me upgrade since their return policy is 14 days and even if they do then maybe the would charge me a 15% restock fee, and if thats the case then maybe it would be better to sell the denon and go option 1 or 2?

am i missing any pros or cons to any option?

thanks

Steven
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post #26 of 32
5/16/11 at 7:08pm
Pretty much, you nailed it.

Any one of those options is the "correct choice"...

Have you tried to see if it shuts down with the broken speaker taken out of the equation?
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post #27 of 32
5/16/11 at 7:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

Pretty much, you nailed it.

Any one of those options is the "correct choice"...
Have you tried to see if it shuts down with the broken speaker taken out of the equation?

yea i just tried it, it went on for a little longer like 2 or 3 mins but it still shut down on me.

I think i might be leaning towards getting the XPA-3. it was the original plan but i didnt know it would have to be so soon. and it is less hassle, especially when the other options have variables that arent controlled by me.
ie. dont know if integra dealer would accept a trade and if he did dont know how much he would credit me.
dont know how much exactly i could get if i sold my denon.
Dont know if electronics expo would allow an upgrade and even if they did high chance of a restocking fee.

thanks

Steven
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post #28 of 32
5/16/11 at 7:40pm
Read your message and followed you over here. Every one has contributed a lot of diverse advice and your head must be spinning. Let me add my two cents worth:
1.Denon makes argueably the best AVR audio reproduction in the business
2.The unit you have 3311 has all the bells and whistles you will need
3.What you need is an exetenal hefty amplifier, with strong power supply, and high headroom capabilities (at least two channels-ideally three) for your front three speaker systems-these three are usually 70 to80 percent of your amplification load, in 5.1 or 6.1 system
4."Reinventing the wheel"i.e. selling gear, trading gear, will be a waste of time and money.
5.My suggestion is ideally XPA3, or, since you said you couldn't swing it now, upa2, and add upa1 later.
6.Your 3311 should be able to handle two or three surround speakers, even if they are 4 ohms--look on the last page of your 3311manual-they will give you a two channel rating into 4 ohms, if you are only driving two channels
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post #29 of 32
5/16/11 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fordf250 View Post

Read your message and followed you over here. Every one has contributed a lot of diverse advice and your head must be spinning. Let me add my two cents worth:
1.Denon makes argueably the best AVR audio reproduction in the business
2.The unit you have 3311 has all the bells and whistles you will need
3.What you need is an exetenal hefty amplifier, with strong power supply, and high headroom capabilities (at least two channels-ideally three) for your front three speaker systems-these three are usually 70 to80 percent of your amplification load, in 5.1 or 6.1 system
4."Reinventing the wheel"i.e. selling gear, trading gear, will be a waste of time and money.
5.My suggestion is ideally XPA3, or, since you said you couldn't swing it now, upa2, and add upa1 later.
6.Your 3311 should be able to handle two or three surround speakers, even if they are 4 ohms--look on the last page of your 3311manual-they will give you a two channel rating into 4 ohms, if you are only driving two channels

hi, thanks for joining me over here.

1) cool

2) good to know

3) yes i definately need an external amp.

4) yea this option would have probably left me without a reciever for a while and set me back further $.

5) yea XPA-3 is definately on the radar. going to see if i can reallocate more funds to the XPA-3 as it was the initial plan but i thought it would be more like 2 or 3 months down the road.

6) thats good to know. Just looked in the manual and it says. Dynamic power = 190Wx2Channels at 4ohms

again thanks for your contribution

steven
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post #30 of 32
5/16/11 at 8:13pm
Thread Starter 
also i was looking at pictures of the XPA-3 and realized i dont know how to connect it to the reciever...

Do i run speaker wire and banana plugs from the speakers to the XPA-3?

how do i connect the reciever to the amp??

thanks

Steven
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