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Panasonic VT25 IR/Burn in

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
Panasonic 54" VT25 purchased in February from Amazon.

I seem to have some image retention or burn in and it has me freaking out a bit. I have been very, very careful with this panel coming up. No pausing / static images, no letterboxing etc. Lots of full screen only content for the first 3 months and I kept the picture settings on low-ish (ie standard preset).

Saturday I noticed that what I can only describe as a retained / burned in image. It's part of the YES on screen scoreboard graphic thing that they display as part of ever Yankee telecast. You know the score / balls / strikes / outs thingie that every sports broadcast uses now. I can see, on certain backgrounds, a ghosted image of the word YES and the box that surrounds it. Depends on the background, but it's there, especially on blue or white backgrounds. I first noticed it while watching golf - sky - makes it easiest to see. You can't see it at all on dark backgrounds unless you are standing on top of the panel and really looking.

I'm honestly not sure how it's possible for there to be any burn in. Like I said, i'm insanely careful with this thing. I never pause for more than a couple seconds (and never baseball) I'm constantly changing channels too, so it's not like that logo is ever up 100% of the time for hours either. It's rare that I don't flip around during commercials etc. Pixel orbiter was on automatic, though I've since put it on 2 minutes because I was looking for solutions.

I've run the white bar wipe probably a dozen times as well as the break in slides. It's definitely still there. TV has probably been on 15-20 hours since I noticed it.

Right now I'm afraid to watch a game on YES because of it. This is a problem as that's kinda what I'd like to be watching (despite the Yankees sucking on and off this year)

FWIW, the panel has noticeable buzz on white backgrounds from 11 feet (with the sound off, of course. I never really thought much of that though. Just tossing it out there.

So... what do I do? Should I try contacting Panny? Is it going to go away? Is it burn in? Do I need a different TV to watch baseball? Why did this just happen Friday or Saturday? I've obviously been watching games on YES since March and there was no burn in at all. I definitely didn't pause anything or do anything that would cause retention on Friday or any day last week. This is a 2010 model panel... I didn't even think burn in was still possible these days, especially not when you treat the panel like a delicate flower as I have for 3+ months.

I'd appreciate any advice or help. Not gonna lie, I'm freaking out that my 3 month old giant investment is permanently damaged... looking for some real experience here...

TIA etc. Really.
post #2 of 51
I burned in part of the GUI from the PS3 game Demon's Souls into my VT25. Not IR, but full burn-in. This happened even with ~1,500 hours of use on the TV. That said it's virtually impossible to see. I doubt anyone would ever be able to see it even if I sat them in front of the TV with a solid white screen and told them to find it.

My reaction was similar to yours. I immediately stopped playing the game when I noticed. I believe it has somewhat diminished over time, but it's still there if I look hard enough.

Sucks, but what can you do. It's part of the tech.
post #3 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by incircles1138 View Post

Panasonic 54" VT25 purchased in February from Amazon.

I seem to have some image retention or burn in and it has me freaking out a bit. I have been very, very careful with this panel coming up. No pausing / static images, no letterboxing etc. Lots of full screen only content for the first 3 months and I kept the picture settings on low-ish (ie standard preset).

Saturday I noticed that what I can only describe as a retained / burned in image. It's part of the YES on screen scoreboard graphic thing that they display as part of ever Yankee telecast. You know the score / balls / strikes / outs thingie that every sports broadcast uses now. I can see, on certain backgrounds, a ghosted image of the word YES and the box that surrounds it. Depends on the background, but it's there, especially on blue or white backgrounds. I first noticed it while watching golf - sky - makes it easiest to see. You can't see it at all on dark backgrounds unless you are standing on top of the panel and really looking.

I'm honestly not sure how it's possible for there to be any burn in. Like I said, i'm insanely careful with this thing. I never pause for more than a couple seconds (and never baseball) I'm constantly changing channels too, so it's not like that logo is ever up 100% of the time for hours either. It's rare that I don't flip around during commercials etc. Pixel orbiter was on automatic, though I've since put it on 2 minutes because I was looking for solutions.

I've run the white bar wipe probably a dozen times as well as the break in slides. It's definitely still there. TV has probably been on 15-20 hours since I noticed it.

Right now I'm afraid to watch a game on YES because of it. This is a problem as that's kinda what I'd like to be watching (despite the Yankees sucking on and off this year)

FWIW, the panel has noticeable buzz on white backgrounds from 11 feet (with the sound off, of course. I never really thought much of that though. Just tossing it out there.

So... what do I do? Should I try contacting Panny? Is it going to go away? Is it burn in? Do I need a different TV to watch baseball? Why did this just happen Friday or Saturday? I've obviously been watching games on YES since March and there was no burn in at all. I definitely didn't pause anything or do anything that would cause retention on Friday or any day last week. This is a 2010 model panel... I didn't even think burn in was still possible these days, especially not when you treat the panel like a delicate flower as I have for 3+ months.

I'd appreciate any advice or help. Not gonna lie, I'm freaking out that my 3 month old giant investment is permanently damaged... looking for some real experience here...

TIA etc. Really.


Don't panic, it's just IR, not burn in. I've had the same issue on my Panny. Here is the solution. First set your TV to antenna mode. (If you use an antenna disconnect it.) You will get a white snowy picture which you should run in the vivid mode at full contrast. You may have to do this for several hours a day or when you retire at night, for a few days and the stubburn YES ticker image should disappear. It will also help even out the residual electrical charges in your pixels. Before you start watching the Yankees lose again , in the custom mode, set your contrast under 80%, your sharpness under 20% and brightness under 55%. Also, unless you are going to watch full screen content for some time right after the game, as a precaution, use the scrolling bar for a few passes to help clear the image, otherwise it may come back again. Works for me. Good luck!

Ian
post #4 of 51
Good advice, but honestly the white bar and static did nothing for mine, just made me freak out more when it didn't disappear. I just accepted it and kept using it, never forgot the IR was there though, and eventually it faded away.
post #5 of 51
haha yeah, Demon's Souls had me freakin' out over the pure white symbols that are always on the screen. I tried playing with the hud off but that made the game almost impossible.
post #6 of 51
Thread Starter 
I *really* appreciate the replies.

Ian - I've heard the snow trick before but I haven't been able to get it to work because when I switch to antenna mode (after enabling it, as it wasn't) it only displays snow for less than a second, then switches to black with a floating box "no signal" message. I guess it's just smarter than I am. Heh. Is there a way around that?

Again, thanks a ton.
post #7 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by incircles1138 View Post

I *really* appreciate the replies.

Ian - I've heard the snow trick before but I haven't been able to get it to work because when I switch to antenna mode (after enabling it, as it wasn't) it only displays snow for less than a second, then switches to black with a floating box "no signal" message. I guess it's just smarter than I am. Heh. Is there a way around that?

Again, thanks a ton.

You may have to go back and do another initial set up. Make sure you pick yes or on for the antenna/TV mode. The go to regular set up (see wrench icon) make sure channel surf is set to all then select ant/cable set up and set antenna in to antenna. Using the input button on the remote select TV. You should be good to go with lots of snow. Go Yanks!


Ian
post #8 of 51
Thread Starter 
I must be missing something obvious with getting it to display snow ...

I went back and did the First Time Set up again, selecting antenna. Then it wants to do a scan. If i let it scan, it finds 0 analog, 0 digital. OK fine. If i skip the scan, it disables the input.

So ok, 0 channels found. Surf on all. ant/cable to ant. When I switch to TV I can indeed switch to channels 2-3-4 etc but the snow only displays for a second before the screen blanks out black and i get the box that reads "channel not available. (no signal)" message. I'm starting to feel silly, heh.
post #9 of 51
I have a VT25, and for me the break in slides work great for getting rid of IR. The Boxee Box is one of the worst things for leaving IR....it has very thick white border boxes in the top corner of the menus....and I've seen them stick around for a while after normal TV viewing (granted, you have to put on a black screen and look for them). I find they go away very quickly after running the break in slides for just a few minutes.
post #10 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by incircles1138 View Post

I must be missing something obvious with getting it to display snow ...

I went back and did the First Time Set up again, selecting antenna. Then it wants to do a scan. If i let it scan, it finds 0 analog, 0 digital. OK fine. If i skip the scan, it disables the input.

Try not selecting antenna then.

Quote:
So ok, 0 channels found. Surf on all. ant/cable to ant. When I switch to TV I can indeed switch to channels 2-3-4 etc but the snow only displays for a second before the screen blanks out black and i get the box that reads "channel not available. (no signal)" message. I'm starting to feel silly, heh.

Just switch to TV. Do nothing else. Also, make sure you turn off all power saver options.



Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeorwell View Post

I have a VT25, and for me the break in slides work great for getting rid of IR. The Boxee Box is one of the worst things for leaving IR....it has very thick white border boxes in the top corner of the menus....and I've seen them stick around for a while after normal TV viewing (granted, you have to put on a black screen and look for them). I find they go away very quickly after running the break in slides for just a few minutes.


I haven't found anything that is a match for that YES sticker. But using the slides is definitely worth a shot.


Ian
post #11 of 51
pixel protector dvd has a snow option on it
post #12 of 51
Thread Starter 
Well the good news is that the IR seems to be fading. Either that or I'm getting used to it. Heh. No, it's definitely fading, so I'm panicking less.

The bad news is I still get can't get the snow to display for more than 1 second. I figure I need to just hook a source to that input and trick it at least with a horrible signal? Either way, the Pixel Protector DVD is on the way here. I'll probably run that through it a few times, if it's indeed true that it includes a nice snow signal.

For now, lots of full screen content and the wipe bar...
post #13 of 51
I know a guy with a V25 that has the ESPN logo burned in months after they bought it. How is it possible for a plasma owner to even watch that channel regularly when it has such a bright white logo on the screen at all times?
post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post

I know a guy with a V25 that has the ESPN logo burned in months after they bought it. How is it possible for a plasma owner to even watch that channel regularly when it has such a bright white logo on the screen at all times?

Same thing here. G20 though, burned in at the 3 month mark. I now have to watch ESPN on my 19" LCD and not my 50" plasma.
post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jec0995 View Post

Same thing here. G20 though, burned in at the 3 month mark. I now have to watch ESPN on my 19" LCD and not my 50" plasma.

Has the burned in logo at least diminished since that happened?
post #16 of 51
If I stick my nose to the screen of my G25 I notice a faint image or two (From the Pandora app and the ammo count from BF:BC2). I can't see it from where I sit so I don't worry about it.
post #17 of 51
Just to clarify again. It's not burn in, it's just stubborn image retention. Burn in relates to phosphor damage, which is permanent, and never fades with time.



Ian
post #18 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Just to clarify again. It's not burn in, it's just stubborn image retention. Burn in relates to phosphor damage, which is permanent, and never fades with time.



Ian
Stubborn "image retention" could also be called "burn in" if it fails to ever go away completely.
post #19 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post
Stubborn "image retention" could also be called "burn in" if it fails to ever go away completely.
True, but technically they're not the same. Image retention refers the residual electrical charge of a pixel which acts like a capacitor and will fade over time. Burn in refers to damaged pixels whose phosphors have been prematurely aged. Unless they are abused, most of the newer plasmas today do not experience burn in, but IR is very common, even though it can last for quite some time.


http://hdguru.com/plasma-tv-burn-in-fact-or-myth/826/

http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/results/image.php



Ian
post #20 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post


Has the burned in logo at least diminished since that happened?

Nope. Not at all. It's been 4 months now since it happened. Just as clear as day one. I can easily see it from 8 feet away.
post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jec0995 View Post

Nope. Not at all. It's been 4 months now since it happened. Just as clear as day one. I can easily see it from 8 feet away.

And you've avoided the source of the IR during those 4 months?
post #22 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

True, but technically they're not the same. Image retention refers the residual electrical charge of a pixel which acts like a capacitor and will fade over time. Burn in refers to damaged pixels whose phosphors have been prematurely aged. Unless they are abused, most of the newer plasmas today do not experience burn in, but IR is very common, even though it can last for quite some time.


http://hdguru.com/plasma-tv-burn-in-fact-or-myth/826/

http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/results/image.php
Ian

It's pretty easy to differentiate burn in and IR. If the ghosting you see is darker than the rest of the screen and it is visible on all material (on my g20 it is visible even on full black screen as even blacker text) it is burn in.

If it is not visible on regular content but only on black screen as "brighter ghost image" it is IR.

With new plasmas burn in means that some of the phosphors have aged faster than the rest of them, which makes them glow less brighter. I don't think that any real DAMAGE has anything to do with it, just uneven phosphor aging causing it. At least this is how I think it is.

Also, the hdguru article about trying to create plasma panel burn in by viewing some picture 10 hrs is not very reasonable. Of course you will not get burn in (uneven phosphor aging) in such a short time like that. My G20 is now have been used 700 hrs, which about 10-20 % has been used to play Madden 2011 and I've got the madden "hud" burned in on my tv. The white parts are the ones that have caused this. About 80-90% of my Madden playing time I've been using Professional 1 picture mode which has been calibrated and has approximately 60% contrast setting. So, one should be careful if you have some favourite game that has white static parts in hud or somewhere else because this can cause burn in.
post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeipii View Post

With new plasmas burn in means that some of the phosphors have aged faster than the rest of them, which makes them glow less brighter. I don't think that any real DAMAGE has anything to do with it, just uneven phosphor aging causing it.


True. As I also posted, it's actually premature aging.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeipii View Post

Also, the hdguru article about trying to create plasma panel burn in by viewing some picture 10 hrs is not very reasonable. Of course you will not get burn in (uneven phosphor aging) in such a short time like that.


I think that was the point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeipii View Post

My G20 is now have been used 700 hrs, which about 10-20 % has been used to play Madden 2011 and I've got the madden "hud" burned in on my tv. The white parts are the ones that have caused this. About 80-90% of my Madden playing time I've been using Professional 1 picture mode which has been calibrated and has approximately 60% contrast setting. So, one should be careful if you have some favourite game that has white static parts in hud or somewhere else because this can cause burn in.

How long was each play? Did you watch any full screen content or do a wash after each game? When it comes to burn in, no pun intended, all these factors can also come into play.


Ian
post #24 of 51

Those links are both funny for different reasons.

The first link is the typical claim being made that modern plasmas need ridiculous levels of abuse to get burn in. The hilarious part comes in the comments, where you see person after person reply to share their story of how they burned in their plasma without doing anything extreme to make it happen. This claim that "modern plasmas" are not easily burned in seems like a myth that has been repeated so many times that some people believe it. Even people who seem like they should know what they're talking about. Ironically the beginning of that article talks about the burn in "myths". The real myth in my opinion is that "modern plasmas" can't be burned in with normal use.


The second link is a site that appears to basically be a PR site for plasma manufacturers. How credible do you really think that information is going to be? Of course they're going to claim burn in is extremely rare.
post #25 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post

Those links are both funny for different reasons.

The first link is the typical claim being made that modern plasmas need ridiculous levels of abuse to get burn in. The hilarious part comes in the comments, where you see person after person reply to share their story of how they burned in their plasma without doing anything extreme to make it happen. This claim that "modern plasmas" are not easily burned in seems like a myth that has been repeated so many times that some people believe it. Even people who seem like they should know what they're talking about. Ironically the beginning of that article talks about the burn in "myths". The real myth in my opinion is that "modern plasmas" can't be burned in with normal use.


The second link is a site that appears to basically be a PR site for plasma manufacturers. How credible do you really think that information is going to be? Of course they're going to claim burn in is extremely rare.




I'm glad you find them so amusing, but the conclusions aren't as silly as you might think and I could care less about the readers comments. You're missing my point. Technically, burn in and IR are two different issues and though they both can be problematic, the latter isn't permanent. Also, I'm not saying that burn in is EXTREMELY rare, and I'm not sure what your definition of abuse is, but with most newer models, if you have any common sense, and obviously you don't, real burn in is unlikely. http://reviews.cnet.com/plasma-burn-...-need-to-know/


Ian
post #26 of 51
I have three plasma TV's. One of which I play Atari Flashback with. TV has IR on occasion, it goes away when I watch regular TV. OF course, I use the TV's pixel orbiter, and switch between the modes.

The other two plasma have had maybe 2 hours total(combined) of IR in 2 years(news tickers/channel indicators)
post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

How long was each play? Did you watch any full screen content or do a wash after each game? When it comes to burn in, no pun intended, all these factors can also come into play.
Ian

The Madden sessions were most of them 1 hr at a time (one match). And I did watch tv (full screen material) and some movies which some of then were full screen and some were not. Approximately the Madden was played about 1-3 hrs per week.

I have to admit that the burn in is in part of the screen where modern movies do have a black bar, so those phosphors haven't been aged as much as the whole tv has. Now that I think, maybe I should've ran the break in slides occasionally until my tv reaches 1000 hours, this might have reduced the possibility of burn in a lot.
post #28 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post


I'm glad you find them so amusing, but the conclusions aren't as silly as you might think and I could care less about the readers comments. You're missing my point. Technically, burn in and IR are two different issues and though they both can be problematic, the latter isn't permanent. Also, I'm not saying that burn in is EXTREMELY rare, and I'm not sure what your definition of abuse is, but with most newer models, if you have any common sense, and obviously you don't, real burn in is unlikely. http://reviews.cnet.com/plasma-burn-...-need-to-know/

Ian

You may not be using the words "extreme", but many people do.

Again, even that CNET article you linked says many of the typical things about burn in being hard to get. He also mentions the pixel orbiter as being a big help, which once again is sort of a myth to be honest. A pixel orbiter is going to do nothing to prevent that large white ESPN logo from being burned in.

I think the problem is this. You have a lot of people who maybe don't play videogames all that often, or they never happen to watch channels like ESPN or CNN. So they tell others burn in is never a problem because their particular viewing habits work fine with a plasma.

The problem comes in when those people (which seems to be a lot of plasma owners) tell the guy who loves to play Madden that. Months later he's got the bright white scoreboard burned into his plasma. The same goes for a guy like me who happens to watch a lot of ESPN or CNN. I personally just got a new videogame this week that has several bright white indicators on the screen most of the time. I'll probably put 20 hours into this game in the next few weeks.

So for a certain number of people I believe burn in can be avoided, but for a great number of other people their "normal use habits" would eventually lead to permanent damage to the tv. That needs to be honestly discussed a lot more than it is on forums like this one.
post #29 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post

You may not be using the words "extreme", but many people do.

Again, even that CNET article you linked says many of the typical things about burn in being hard to get. He also mentions the pixel orbiter as being a big help, which once again is sort of a myth to be honest. A pixel orbiter is going to do nothing to prevent that large white ESPN logo from being burned in.

I think the problem is this. You have a lot of people who maybe don't play videogames all that often, or they never happen to watch channels like ESPN or CNN. So they tell others burn in is never a problem because their particular viewing habits work fine with a plasma.

The problem comes in when those people (which seems to be a lot of plasma owners) tell the guy who loves to play Madden that. Months later he's got the bright white scoreboard burned into his plasma. The same goes for a guy like me who happens to watch a lot of ESPN or CNN. I personally just got a new videogame this week that has several bright white indicators on the screen most of the time. I'll probably put 20 hours into this game in the next few weeks.

So for a certain number of people I believe burn in can be avoided, but for a great number of other people their "normal use habits" would eventually lead to permanent damage to the tv. That needs to be honestly discussed a lot more than it is on forums like this one.

I totally agree with you and want to add that one factor that also contributes to this burn in problem is that at least most of the 2010 Panasonic plasma models don't have so good anti reflection filter so when you play during day you must use a little bit higher contrast setting.

Even if this use of higher contrast with some videogame like Madden is only 30% of the time you play that game, it makes the burn in happen even faster. Okay, you can always transform your room into bat cave, but most of us don't do that. And it is not very easy if the sun is shining.

Also in my opinion, the common sense is not enough to prevent burn in. If you want to play some video game a lot (I mean like hundred(s) of hours) or want to watch for example some sport channel a lot. If that game or channel has some white logo / hud it will definitely cause uneven phosphor aging even if you have low contrast value. It is not easy to combat this kind of phosphor aging.
post #30 of 51
Yeah I object to the notion that burn-in can be avoided with simple 'common sense'. Common sense to me is that if I spend $3k on a display I can display whatever I want with it.

That said those of us here have more than common sense we have a large amount of information and shared experiences at our disposal. In the end I decided I simply couldn't tolerate the deficiencies of LED-LCD displays and so I went plasma knowing the issues and begrudgingly willing to make some effort to mitigate them.
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